13634 réponses à ce sujet

[kelmar6821]

Except for the oath of submission I don't recall any obvious contradictions in Samara's code.

[kelmar6821]

The purpose of the code is "To punish the wicked, and protect the innocent." No one can be allowed to stand in the way of that just because they're doing their jobs. Eh, but then again I've always leaned towards absolutism morally speaking. Its probably why I sympathize with the code so much.

[kelmar6821]

Yes but the difference between those two innocents is that one made a choice to follow orders, the others were victims of Nihlus

[Kudara]

Flamewielder wrote...

Good one, yorkj86! I think Samara herself would feel rather flattered, without ever saying so outright... You'd just get lost in those eyes and swear you saw one of them wink.

Haha probably, I decided I liked her when I saw a you tube video where a paragon shep asks her about just sleeping together and she says something about if she were still a maiden you'd already be on the floor.  Too damn funny, she's not nearly as uptight as some people seem to think.

[DirtyVagrant]

Posting some Samara in a Samara thread.

[kelmar6821]

yorkj86 wrote...

Then
Samara would be acting lawlessly with lawful individuals, following a
system that compels her to act lawfully.

I don't specifically recall hearing that the code 'acts lawfully'. I think its obvious that when the code contradicts the law a Justicar is required by the code itself to follow the code.

Modifié par kelmar6821, 28 mars 2010 - 04:57 .

[Kudara]

Regarding the Third oath of Subsumation



http://masseffect.wi...sari:_Justicars



The wiki says: 'Of all the pledges, the Third Oath of Subsumation is sworn the least of any of the oaths. Requiring a justicar to swear loyalty that overrides the dictates of even the Justicar Code, the Third Oath is usually invoked in matters where even the black-or-white thinking of justicars is forced to concede the existence of gray.'



I think she swears it because she's definitely going outside of asari space and she's working with a multi-species crew as the only asari. She also has to acknowledge that Shepard (a human) is the Commander of the crew and she needs to be able to follow his orders. That might not mean that Shep orders her to do something against the code, but it might mean she has to walk off and not act in a situation she would have acted upon had she not sworn the oath. Like on Tuchanka, she doesn't do anything about the pit fighting because she's under the third oath and Shepard isn't interested in getting into a fight with the krogan or Wrex over it.

[volly0071]

yorkj86 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

BlackMetal wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

LOL! Love the Cartoon, york.

I for one hope she doesn't turn on the renegade Shepard in ME3. And I hope they keep her as she is one of the more convincingly written characters ( although I agree about the subsumation thing being a lazy plot device.)

I think to keep her character true and intact she will have to turn on Renegade Shepard.

Samara can act Renegade by the player's standards, or at least The Code would allow it.  She states that she would start killing her way out of the police station on Illium after one day, since being restrained would interfere with her observation of The Code.  The police are just (nervously) doing their jobs in holding her.

I think Samara would choose to stay away from a Renegade Shepard, not because she would be afraid of him, but because she wouldn't want to have to kill someone she respects.

The code, quite frankly, contradicts itself and is not coherant imo.

Most secular systems of ethics are contradictory and sometimes incoherent.  The alternative is lawlessness, which The Code fights against.

I'm leaving out religious systems of ethics to avoid a firestorm.

Ok, I have to ask in case I missed it.

What the hell do we even know about this code of hers other than it exists, and she follows it? It is over 5000 sutras and covers ever situation. It doesn't serve as a means for one to acheive spirtual enlightenment. How did you all go from this. To where your at now?
When did she say she was going to go on a mass murdering spree to free herself from police custody? She only said they would not be able to stop her from leaving. If people got in her way that doesn't translate in to insta-death.

Sometimes the most honest path is the brutal one. NOT ALL THE TIME. How does this code contradict itself? I have never heard it,or read it. If you have show it to me, Plz.

[kelmar6821]

Kudara wrote...

Regarding the Third oath of Subsumation

http://masseffect.wi...sari:_Justicars

The wiki says: 'Of all the pledges, the Third Oath of Subsumation is sworn the least of any of the oaths. Requiring a justicar to swear loyalty that overrides the dictates of even the Justicar Code, the Third Oath is usually invoked in matters where even the black-or-white thinking of justicars is forced to concede the existence of gray.'

I think she swears it because she's definitely going outside of asari space and she's working with a multi-species crew as the only asari. She also has to acknowledge that Shepard (a human) is the Commander of the crew and she needs to be able to follow his orders. That might not mean that Shep orders her to do something against the code, but it might mean she has to walk off and not act in a situation she would have acted upon had she not sworn the oath. Like on Tuchanka, she doesn't do anything about the pit fighting because she's under the third oath and Shepard isn't interested in getting into a fight with the krogan or Wrex over it.

This is why I myself don't view the oath as a 'cheap plot device.' I think its a nessecary one.

[kelmar6821]

kelmar6821 wrote...
This is why I myself don't view the oath as a 'cheap plot device.' I think its a nessecary one.

slimgrin wrote...
In this context, the third oath sounds more reasonable to me. It allows for shades of gray, and for her to excercise personal judgement.

yorkj86 wrote...
This is why I think the Third Oath is a lazy plot-device. The Code is absolute, except when it's not. What?

Lol! Varying opinions vary.

Modifié par kelmar6821, 28 mars 2010 - 05:08 .

[AKFTF]

slimgrin wrote...

Are the Justicars a strictly secular group, or is there a spirituality/religious basis to it?

I looked at the codex entry for Asari Justicars and it didn't mention anything about sprituality or religion. Perhaps it depends on the Justicar?

Edit: Nevermind. I was really late in answering that. Carry on.

Modifié par AKFTF, 28 mars 2010 - 05:11 .

[Rikketik]

kelmar6821 wrote...

Kudara wrote...

Regarding the Third oath of Subsumation

http://masseffect.wi...sari:_Justicars

The wiki says: 'Of all the pledges, the Third Oath of Subsumation is sworn the least of any of the oaths. Requiring a justicar to swear loyalty that overrides the dictates of even the Justicar Code, the Third Oath is usually invoked in matters where even the black-or-white thinking of justicars is forced to concede the existence of gray.'

I think she swears it because she's definitely going outside of asari space and she's working with a multi-species crew as the only asari. She also has to acknowledge that Shepard (a human) is the Commander of the crew and she needs to be able to follow his orders. That might not mean that Shep orders her to do something against the code, but it might mean she has to walk off and not act in a situation she would have acted upon had she not sworn the oath. Like on Tuchanka, she doesn't do anything about the pit fighting because she's under the third oath and Shepard isn't interested in getting into a fight with the krogan or Wrex over it.

This is why I myself don't view the oath as a 'cheap plot device.' I think its a nessecary one.

It's certainly a nessecary one. Whether it's cheap, depends on the consequences for Samara. Of what value is The Code if you can swear an oath whenever it suits you? Maybe it's something that can be explored further in ME3.

[kelmar6821]

AKFTF wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Are the Justicars a strictly secular group, or is there a spirituality/religious basis to it?

I looked at the codex entry for Asari Justicars and it didn't mention anything about sprituality or religion. Perhaps it depends on the Justicar?

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Asari

The whole goddess thing is unrelated to the code. So, I believe that the code is indeed secular.

Modifié par kelmar6821, 28 mars 2010 - 05:22 .

[Flamewielder]

Rikketik wrote...

That's quite an interesting aspect of her mission by the way. Everybody warns you about how dangerous Samara is and how she kills anybody who crosses the law. You would expect to find a trail of body's leading to the cargo area where she's fighting those Eclipse. Because, as Officer Dara says it, everybody crosses the law a bit on Illium... Perhaps The Code allows Samara to hunt the biggest criminal first and ignore everybody else she considers not worth the time?

We often compare Samara to a Paladin and assume the Code is a "Lawful Good" (in D&D jargon), when she herself says that a Justicar's duty cannot be tempered by compassion, a definition more akin to "Lawful Neutral". Unlike a paladin, who would temper the application of law (lawful) with mercy (good), a Justicar appears to apply the Code to the letter.

The Oath of Subsumption may be a lazy plot device (I think it likely was created as such) but would make sense in asari society, as a way to minimize friction between the Justicar Order and secular authorities. If you picture a medieval asari society (something that may have existed in the past on the asari homeworld) a travelling Justicar entering a local matriarch's lands would first determine if the matriarch was a fair ruler, then seek her collaboration in adressing any injustice. The Oath of Subsumption might be a kindof temporary oath of fealty, allowing the Justicar to ignore minor offenses to the Code in order to rectify some greater injustice.

When you look at it this way, the Oath makes sense from a law-enforcement perspective. And it's obviously an oath the matriarch would not accept lightly, as the Justicar could likely turn on her upon completion if she abused the privilege...