13634 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I see... a bit like vampires succumbing to the "monster within" in Vampire: The Masquerade (first edition). But the idea in the Masquerade was that once the player character lost her remaining humanity, she became a monster non-player character and thus utterly unredeemable. The whole point of this RPG was the struggle of the vampire player characters struggling against (or embracing) the "monster within".

Not only did that take quite a long time, those vampires were basically mindless, unable to consider anything except sleeping and feeding. Morinth still clearly possesses her faculties.

If that's the case, then wether or not Samara herself decided to hunt her down might not be that important a factor in shaping Morinth's current personality.

And if this is true, this is perhaps why Morinth is her current level of evil, having absorbed many other evil people early on.

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...
And if this is true, this is perhaps why Morinth is her current level of evil, having absorbed many other evil people early on.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." F. Nietzche

In which case, one wonders if there's anything left to save in Morinth? But I like your reasoning, and it would make a good story. Nevertheless, the depth of feelings expressed by Samara regarding her daughter go against the idea of there having ever been something to salvage in Morinth once she decided to run. Maybe there was and Samara never knew, but after hunting her down for 400 years you'd think she would have suspected something was up after finding 20-25 brain-fried criminals, one after the other... Justicars may be inflexible as far as injustice is concerned, but they don't strike me as unimaginative or dim-witted.

[Xilizhra]

I think part of the reason Samara joined the justicars was to squash any false hope she might have for Morinth... perhaps it went a bit too far and got rid of the real hope as well.

[Flamewielder]

Quite possibly. We are told A-Y are popular anti-hero figures in asari fiction, as your idea suggests. But since the condition IS irreversible, any hope would be a false one, thus vindicating Samara's decision in the end. Had Samara caught Morinth after she'd mind-drained a few criminals and offered her to go back to seclusion instead of execution, I doubt Morinth would have accepted.

[Xilizhra]

And what do you think would happen if a cure for the condition was uncovered in ME3?

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...
And what do you think would happen if a cure for the condition was uncovered in ME3?

Curing her from her addiction & preventing her from mind-draining any more people would certainly be a preferable option over simply killing her, as far at protecting innocent people. It would also give her an opportunity to somehow make up for all the lives she cut short, assuming she's willing to take it. I doubt her name would be taken from the justicars' execution lists, as she's still considered guilty of multiple murders (or at least multiple manslaughter) but she might be offered emprisonment instead...

The way she is protrayed in ME2 (assuming you chose her over Samara) doesn't hint at any remorse over the lives she's cut short, however... She's like a 40-year old adolescent, full of rage at her mother, which is exactly what A-Y are described as: asari who cannot "grow up", eventually turning into 1000 year-old spoiled brats.

On the other hand, as I suggested previously, if a cure was revealed in ME3 and you'd chosen Samara over Morinth, I believe it would break Samara utterly. Shepard notwithstanding, there's no coming back from the dead; Samara would forever blame herself for killing her favored child when salvation was only a few months to come. It would turn her peaceful acceptance of likely death in the line of duty into a suicidal race to achieve it.

[Xilizhra]

There, I think, is the seed for quite an interesting story if somehow Samara becomes a fully-fledged LI in ME3, though I think she could be pulled back from the brink even without that, just by being reminded that her other daughters can be freed. If that did happen, though, I'm pretty sure that it would be much healthier for her psychologically to leave the justicar order.



(Of course, the flip side to Samara being an LI in ME3 is my being tempted away from Liara, and having that not be present would make things a lot easier for me... though maybe I'll just play an LI-less Shepard until ME3 as an alternate playthrough.)

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...

There, I think, is the seed for quite an interesting story if somehow Samara becomes a fully-fledged LI in ME3, though I think she could be pulled back from the brink even without that, just by being reminded that her other daughters can be freed. If that did happen, though, I'm pretty sure that it would be much healthier for her psychologically to leave the justicar order.

(Of course, the flip side to Samara being an LI in ME3 is my being tempted away from Liara, and having that not be present would make things a lot easier for me... though maybe I'll just play an LI-less Shepard until ME3 as an alternate playthrough.)

You and just about everyone in this thread, Xil... Although having a retired Samara and her 2 cured daughters play aunties to Shepard and Ashley's kids is also a pleasant image in my paragon Shepard's mind. Samara's dauthers would have a lot of growing up to do quickly, so spending a few decades learning social skills among humans would do them a world of good...

... and any poor boy wishing to date Shepard's daughter would be facing a retired N7 war hero dad, a former senior Alliance NCO mom and the dread *___* (paragon stare) of auntie Sama... How I pity the poor kid!

[Xilizhra]

It's just a shame that Morinth wasn't fleshed out better than she ended up being... it's also one that she apparently dies thinking that her mother never loved her.



That image also works out for my own Shepard, though arguably anyone who wanted to date one of Diana's daughters would be even worse off, given that they could be up against the Shadow Broker along with everyone else you mentioned...

[Flamewielder]

Kid: "Good evening, Mr Shepard... (notices the scarring and the battered N7 armor on a nearby stand)... er... wow..."
Shepard (calling up the staircase): "Lily, your date's here to pick you up!"
Ashley (raising her head up from the old Avenger assault rifle she was cleaning): "That's Peter, right?"
Kid (gulping):"Er... yes ma'am..."
Samara (appearing behind the Kid): "You WILL bring her back after the movie, no later than 22:00 tonight."
Kid (startled, then turning to face Samara) "Yes ma'am! Of course I..."
Samara: *___*
Shepard: "Ground floor bathroom's the first door on the left, kid... you should change your underwear before Lily comes down..."
Kid: "...er... yes, sir!"
Ashley (chuckling): "Stop scarring the poor kid! He'll never want to come back!!!"
Samara (the ghost of a smile curling her lips): "If he's back by 22:00, he has nothing to fear..."
Lily (overhearing the grown-ups): " DADDY!"

Modifié par Flamewielder, 01 janvier 2011 - 09:24 .

[Xilizhra]

Does your version of Ashley like cleaning guns as much as Garrus likes calibrations?

[Flamewielder]

She did in ME1, anyway... I figure after 16 years of married life she'd start waxing goddamn nostalgic...

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...
There, I think, is the seed for quite an interesting story if somehow Samara becomes a fully-fledged LI in ME3, though I think she could be pulled back from the brink even without that, just by being reminded that her other daughters can be freed. If that did happen, though, I'm pretty sure that it would be much healthier for her psychologically to leave the justicar order.

Actually, you make a good point: if we assume Samara hunted down Morinth out of love and/or a strong sense of motherly responsibility, the solace of knowing her two remaining daughter will have a chance at a normal life could pull her back from the brink indeed... It would grant her a measure of peace, if not happiness.

Perhaps she could be tempted to emulate Thane and attempt a reconciliation, or perhaps she'd feel she has no right reopening wounds her daughters may have managed to heal by themselves... Her taking up the Oath of Solitude was obviously not easy for Samara, but she's had 400 years to make peace with her loss. People do grow apart under less extreme circumstances...

Modifié par Flamewielder, 05 janvier 2011 - 10:55 .

[Flamewielder]

Not in my habit of doing so... but here's a BUMP for the Justicar!

[Flamewielder]

Do any of you happen to remember the Illium News bit about Samara? Does anyone have the actual text quote?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Dang it, every time I come to this thread I am sick and tired of not knowing what to say because everybody here is talking about something that is far above my comprehension. What are you guys, college students???

[Flamewielder]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Dang it, every time I come to this thread I am sick and tired of not knowing what to say because everybody here is talking about something that is far above my comprehension. What are you guys, college students???

The demographics are actually quite varied:

Me, I'm in the last green block to the right... (male over 40)

Samara's character goes far beyond the obvious sex-appeal of the digital model or the nobility of her face. The questions she raises about ethics, law and law enforcement are fundamental ones, the kind of questions you would debate in college-level ethics or philosophy classes... hence the relative "stuffiness" of it all.

But Samara defines herself by more than the Code she adheres to. A lot of discussions concern Samara's feelings and motivations. Questions like: "why did Samara join the Justicars when she was likely bad-ass enough to hunt Morinth without becoming one?" Samara admits being conflicted over reconciling compassion with strict enforcement of the Code: "Do I really want to know a criminal is also a devoted father?" If Samara was convinced that the Code is always "right", she wouldn't even ask herself that question; yet she still does, even if she sleeps well at night.

I do not believe the Justicars are "right", especially from a human perspective; more importantly, I think Samara doesn't believe it either. I rather think Samara believes that the Justicars, while not perfect, play an important role in asari society.

If I was to choose a similarily ambiguous role in human society, it would have to be that of an executionner (as in, the person mandated by states which still apply the death penalty to perform the execution of a convicted murderer). Of course, Justicars also enjoy judiciary powers which make them both judge AND executionner, but that doesn't change the moral dilemma: however you rationalize it, you are still ending a human life. It is an irreversible act that will weigh more or less heavily on the executionner's conscience.

It's nice to see that underneath the gravitas demanded by her Code her compassion can be glimpsed. The Code may demand strict enforcement of its sutras, but a wise (and compassionate) Justicar will endeavour to disarm the situation before violence is required.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 06 janvier 2011 - 10:16 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Flamewielder wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Dang it, every time I come to this thread I am sick and tired of not knowing what to say because everybody here is talking about something that is far above my comprehension. What are you guys, college students???

The demographics are actually quite varied:

Me, I'm in the last green block to the right... (male over 40)

Samara's character goes far beyond the obvious sex-appeal of the digital model or the nobility of her face. The questions she raises about ethics, law and law enforcement are fundamental ones, the kind of questions you would debate in college-level ethics or philosophy classes... hence the relative "stuffiness" of it all.

But Samara defines herself by more than the Code she adheres to. A lot of discussions concern Samara's feelings and motivations. Questions like: "why did Samara join the Justicars when she was likely bad-ass enough to hunt Morinth without becoming one?" Samara admits being conflicted over reconciling compassion with strict enforcement of the Code: "Do I really want to know a criminal is also a devoted father?" If Samara was convinced that the Code is always "right", she wouldn't even ask herself that question; yet she still does, even if she sleeps well at night.

I do not believe the Justicars are "right", especially from a human perspective; more importantly, I think Samara doesn't believe it either. I rather think Samara believes that the Justicars, while not perfect, play an important role in asari society.

If I was to choose a similarily ambiguous role in human society, it would have to be that of an executionner (as in, the person mandated by states which still apply the death penalty to perform the execution of a convicted murderer). Of course, Justicars also enjoy judiciary powers which make them both judge AND executionner, but that doesn't change the moral dilemma: however you rationalize it, you are still ending a human life. It is an irreversible act that will weigh more or less heavily on the executionner's conscience.

It's nice to see that underneath the gravitas demanded by her Code her compassion can be glimpsed. The Code may demand strict enforcement of its sutras, but a wise (and compassionate) Justicar will endeavour to disarm the situation before violence is required.

 


ROFL you lost me after the bar graph

I'm in the 15-20 range (I'm 18)

[Kudara]

Flamewielder wrote...

Do any of you happen to remember the Illium News bit about Samara? Does anyone have the actual text quote?

Should be able to find it in the Illium sound files somewhere.  Let me poke around and look.

[7Makaveli]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Dang it, every time I come to this thread I am sick and tired of not knowing what to say because everybody here is talking about something that is far above my comprehension. What are you guys, college students???

To echo what Flamewielder said about Samara's appeal, I think she has this mystiqueness about her that deeper thinking fellows are drawn to. Right down to every level if you think about:

First impression: Commanding yet cooperative, patient yet intimidating, resourceful yet restricted.
Physical appearance: Alien yet attractive, exotic, shapely, frequently illuminated, with soulful eyes.
Conversationalist: Thoughtful, quiet observer, cautiously opinionated, philosophical, storyteller,
Moral conviction: Impossible to tell where her morals end and where her convictions begin
Quest/Conflict: The means and end of her MO and overall quest is controversial by human standards, but both are clearly not of human standards, making for a delightful discussion around here

You add that level of depth to a video game character, its bound to make some think harder. (This is not speaking for any other characters)

[Kudara]

Ok found your audio clip Flame, here is the text.

Nos Astra has recently received an unexpected visitor in the form of a rare Justicar calling herself Samara. Samara denied us our request for an interview leaving us in the dark about what brought a Justicar to the fringes of Asari space.

Nevertheless Illium News is pleased to offer a special report on the history and current politics of this rare group.

Modifié par Kudara, 07 janvier 2011 - 02:24 .

[Xilizhra]

It's nice to see that underneath the gravitas demanded by her Code her compassion can be glimpsed. The Code may demand strict enforcement of its sutras, but a wise (and compassionate) Justicar will endeavour to disarm the situation before violence is required.

She's definitely compassionate, but her ability to exercise it is badly constrained... in sort of a heartbreaking manner.

[Siansonea]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's nice to see that underneath the gravitas demanded by her Code her compassion can be glimpsed. The Code may demand strict enforcement of its sutras, but a wise (and compassionate) Justicar will endeavour to disarm the situation before violence is required.

She's definitely compassionate, but her ability to exercise it is badly constrained... in sort of a heartbreaking manner.

I think compassion is misplaced where ardat-yakshi are concerned. They are serial killers, driven by a compulsion to kill. Their redemption lies only in their own death. Even if the condition could be 'cured', justice demands that they pay for their past murders. In Morinth's case, no amount of rehabilitation could offset the scores of asari and other sentient beings she had murdered in the 400 years that had elapsed since she escaped Thessia. There was never a happy ending possible. As Samara says, "she is a tragic figure, but not a sympathetic one".

[Xilizhra]

I think compassion is misplaced where ardat-yakshi are concerned. They are serial killers, driven by a compulsion to kill. Their redemption lies only in their own death. Even if the condition could be 'cured', justice demands that they pay for their past murders. In Morinth's case, no amount of rehabilitation could offset the scores of asari and other sentient beings she had murdered in the 400 years that had elapsed since she escaped Thessia. There was never a happy ending possible. As Samara says, "she is a tragic figure, but not a sympathetic one".

I wasn't quite talking about Morinth there, but I'll bite. If Morinth could be cured and thus lost the compulsion to kill people, she's no longer a threat. There's no need to kill her if she can be redeemed; it isn't like that'd bring any of her victims back.