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[Flamewielder]

Welcome back, guys...

@Sian, I think you'll enjoy reading the discussions Xil and I had over the last two pages, Some interesting insights into Samara, Morinth, and how representative of Justicars Samara can be considered.

@ Kudara, thanks! "politics" suggests individual Justicars do not approach compliance with the Code in necessarily the same way. While all will punish offenses in accordance with whatever the Code prescribes, some may display more effort than others in disarming situations (i.e. persuade the the individual to surrender BEFORE the an irreversible injustice is committed).

Any police recruit who honestly believes that Law prevents all injustices is naive or delusional. As their eyes are opened to the imperfections of Law, their outlook will become a mix of three polar attitudes:

• they can become wiser and use their experience to "manipulate" Law so that "true" justice is served,
• they can become cynical and stop caring one way or the other, typically ending up considering his fellow cops as "us" and bundling the general public and criminals as "them".
• they can willfully decide to utterly embrace the dogma and become antisocial hardasses (i.e. Judge Dread without the dark humour).

Modifié par Flamewielder, 07 janvier 2011 - 02:38 .

[Siansonea]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think compassion is misplaced where ardat-yakshi are concerned. They are serial killers, driven by a compulsion to kill. Their redemption lies only in their own death. Even if the condition could be 'cured', justice demands that they pay for their past murders. In Morinth's case, no amount of rehabilitation could offset the scores of asari and other sentient beings she had murdered in the 400 years that had elapsed since she escaped Thessia. There was never a happy ending possible. As Samara says, "she is a tragic figure, but not a sympathetic one".

I wasn't quite talking about Morinth there, but I'll bite. If Morinth could be cured and thus lost the compulsion to kill people, she's no longer a threat. There's no need to kill her if she can be redeemed; it isn't like that'd bring any of her victims back.

It isn't just the threat that she represents that dictates that Morinth must die. Samara isn't simply killing Morinth to stop her from claiming more victims, but as retribution for having killed innocents. For instance, Samara witnessed Nihlus kill an innocent, and the Code dictated that she had to punish him by killing him. The Code is pretty inflexible here: you kill innocents, you have to die. Morinth, cured or not, has to die for having killed innocents.

[Xilizhra]

Morinth, cured or not, has to die for having killed innocents.

Yes, if you're a justicar. I personally am not.

[Flamewielder]

Siansonea II wrote...
It isn't just the threat that she represents that dictates that Morinth must die. Samara isn't simply killing Morinth to stop her from claiming more victims, but as retribution for having killed innocents. For instance, Samara witnessed Nihlus kill an innocent, and the Code dictated that she had to punish him by killing him. The Code is pretty inflexible here: you kill innocents, you have to die. Morinth, cured or not, has to die for having killed innocents.

But keep in mind that Samara apparently never tried to hunt down Nihlus once he escaped; whereas Samara has been hunting down Morinth for 400 years. Why? Because dangerous A-Y are put on execution lists handed over to the Justicar Order. Why A-Y and not any random murderers? Because there is a reasonable expectation that, A-Y being addicted to killing, they will kill again, and again, and again...

To me, it says something about the Code and the way Justicars enforce it:

1)Protect the innocent
2)Actively hunt down dangerous A-Y because of 1)
3)Punish injustice where you witness it
4)Discourage violation of the Code by advertizing one's presence

Justicars do not:

1)Involve themselves in ongoing police investigations unless invited, or circumstances involve them (i.e. they witness injustice and are in a position to intervene),
2)Do not hunt down suspects unless the justicar witnessed the injustice being committed (or guilt can be established uncontrovertibly).

Were dangerous A-Y "cured" and no longer a threat, the execution lists might still stand (i.e. to punish the guilty) but could also be abolished/handed over to normal law-enforcement agencies. Why? Because "cured" A-Y become no more than any other convicted murderer on the run. Because when you look at it, "cured" A-Y are less at risk of killing again than, say pirates or slavers. As far as protecting the innocent, "cured A-Y" would fall pretty low on the priority list...

Modifié par Flamewielder, 07 janvier 2011 - 08:51 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Don't the codex also mention that Justicars are often used to crack down criminal orginasations there's too tough for the goverment to handle.

[Flamewielder]

To use a human historical analogue:

Al Capone effectively ruled Chicago's underworld for years because he:
1) eliminated all opposition,
2) witnesses were too afraid to come forward,
3) local law-enforcement was sufficiently corrupted to compromise due process (i.e. busts and the legal aquisition of evidence).

I'd say you could refer to him as a "most vicious and destructive criminal element"... Yet he ended up being punished for tax evasion, being the only accusation federal agents were able to get to stick. He was never convicted of any of the other crimes he was obviously linked to, such as his part in the Saint-Valentine's Day Massacre.

Asari Justicars are likely called in when normal law-enforcement organizations and procedures simply cannot cope, likely because the organization is compromized (dirty cops) or criminal elements are obviously exploiting loopholes in the procedures. In 1920's Chicago, a justicar only had to find the speakeasies (they were easy enough to find but nobody dared do anything abouth them), track the warehouses, interrogate the bookkeepers and any capo you catch (they tend to spill their guts after you blow away the first one who wanted to play tough silent type) until you got to Capone.

Do justicars have to do this every day? Probably not. Few modern criminal organizations are as violent and well-entrenched as Capone's was back in the 20's. Nowadays, the really wealthy and successful ones are the quiet ones. They keep a low profile and are dealt with following due process, and that's fine. Violent criminal organizations are often not dealt with following due process: we hunt terrorrists with drones and military personnel and most Al-Qaeda or Taliban sympathizers are killed without seeing the inside of a courtroom... Columbian drug lords were shot in the course of military operations, rarely arrested and prosecuted. All we have as insurance that such people got what they deserved is the the oath of service and integrity of the military personnel involved.

Justicars come into their own when civilized justice fails, either because it is corrupted or simply absent (such as on remote worlds, with no formal law-enforcement body present to deal with criminals). They are far from perfect, but they try their best.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 07 janvier 2011 - 09:33 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Here's what I want to say: I like Samara. That's it. I'll leave you all to your Oxford level conversation.

[Flamewielder]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Here's what I want to say: I like Samara. That's it. I'll leave you all to your Oxford level conversation.

And you, sir, have excellent taste...

[Ashira Shepard]

After having talked about it further with Mak, I have more seriously considered continuing Pariah less along the lines than the fanwank that is Reaper Wars. In as much as, I continue the story where it left off, but on an alternate path.



Spoilers Below For Aforementioned Story



If Ali'sha hadn't died, and instead allowed Morinth to fight with her against the Falsatha (sadistic enemy from Ali's past) and they both lived - what then? Ali'sha would be crippled to the point where the rigors of melee combat become impossible for her, they need to flee the scene with Samara still chasing Morinth.



End Spoilers



After more thought I could end up writing a redemption quest style story where the goal isn't the cure for AY itself but the reward at the end of the story. How exactly, I can redeem Morinth...I've no bloody idea. But with herself plus Ali'sha keeping her 'hunger' in check there's plenty of other things to do with ones time to start with small steps on the path of redemption...



Hrm...

[7Makaveli]

Split Brain

Shepard: *barges in* Samara! Samara! I've perfected the Paragon stare ^__^

Samara: Oh really? Show me.

Shepard: Ready? Here goes......*___^

Samara: What's that? You're doing it wrong.

Shepard: No, I'm not. Look! *___^

Samara: Its supposed to be like this *___* You're only doing half of it

Shepard: Half? How is that..?

Samara: You may have damage on the right side of your brain, because it seems your left eye is not cooperating.

Shepard: But I've been looking in the mirror...

Samara: Certain brain damage can prevent you from noticing the left side of your body...you Charge too much, consider easing up-

Shepard: Wait? Does that mean I'm only seeing half your paragon stare?

Samara: Perhaps so, its not supposed to be as effective with half.....which makes it all the more powerful -___*

Shepard: Gah! The paragon eye! *runs away*

Fin    
 
                                  (by 7Makaveli)

[Zeonae]

7Makaveli wrote...

Split Brain

Shepard: *barges in* Samara! Samara! I've perfected the Paragon stare ^__^

Samara: Oh really? Show me.

Shepard: Ready? Here goes......*___^

Samara: What's that? You're doing it wrong.

Shepard: No, I'm not. Look! *___^

Samara: Its supposed to be like this *___* You're only doing half of it

Shepard: Half? How is that..?

Samara: You may have damage on the right side of your brain, because it seems your left eye is not cooperating.

Shepard: But I've been looking in the mirror...

Samara: Certain brain damage can prevent you from noticing the left side of your body...you Charge too much, consider easing up-

Shepard: Wait? Does that mean I'm only seeing half your paragon stare?

Samara: Perhaps so, its not supposed to be as effective with half.....which makes it all the more powerful -___*

Shepard: Gah! The paragon eye! *runs away*

Fin    
 
                                  (by 7Makaveli)

Ah Collectors.Just hell of a problem,isn't it? 

[Kudara]

I'll die of laughter if some paragon stare comment makes it into ME3.

[Flamewielder]

Unless it's all we get from Samara... Geeting *___* in a bloody e-mail would ruin the mood...

[Zeonae]

Flamewielder wrote...

Unless it's all we get from Samara... Geeting *___* in a bloody e-mail would ruin the mood...

It would still be great to have a pair of paragon eyes.

[Flamewielder]

Saturday afternoon on Zorya...

Zaeed: "Damnit Shepard you let him get away, 20 years of my life wasted and you let him GET AWAY!!"  *points gun towards feeing gunship*
Shepard: "Did I?"
*Cut to missile from the sky blowing gunship up* *comms chirps*
Samara: "Target destroyed. Returning to Normandy. Hammerhead out."
*Cut to Zaeed smiling.*
Zaeed: "Damn... I think I'm in love..."

Edited from original post by Harbinger of Destiny.

[BiancoAngelo7]

I frigin LOVE Samara!!!

I can't believe it was so hard to find this thread, I shoulda known to look in the Character forum...


Anyway....


My main wish for ME3 is that Samara is a romance option, every time I play through ME2 it makes me so so frigin sad that I can't romance her and help her find some peace.

I mean, I get to fix the messed up, tattoo plastered, bald psycho bit*h but I don't get to help the regal and beautiful asari find peace in my Shep's arms??? WTF?

So yeah, it's one of the main things I'm looking forward to in ME3.

Also: Did anyone notice that in ME1 you can survey a mineral called "Samarium"?

lol it happened to me a few times on uncharted worlds, it was a heavy metal I think haha:D

[GuardianAngel470]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

I frigin LOVE Samara!!!

I can't believe it was so hard to find this thread, I shoulda known to look in the Character forum...


Anyway....


My main wish for ME3 is that Samara is a romance option, every time I play through ME2 it makes me so so frigin sad that I can't romance her and help her find some peace.

I mean, I get to fix the messed up, tattoo plastered, bald psycho bit*h but I don't get to help the regal and beautiful asari find peace in my Shep's arms??? WTF?

So yeah, it's one of the main things I'm looking forward to in ME3.

Also: Did anyone notice that in ME1 you can survey a mineral called "Samarium"?

lol it happened to me a few times on uncharted worlds, it was a heavy metal I think haha:D

I feel the same way man. I need to make sure I have a carryover save with no romance from ME1 or ME2 just for her.

[BiancoAngelo7]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

I frigin LOVE Samara!!!

I can't believe it was so hard to find this thread, I shoulda known to look in the Character forum...


Anyway....


My main wish for ME3 is that Samara is a romance option, every time I play through ME2 it makes me so so frigin sad that I can't romance her and help her find some peace.

I mean, I get to fix the messed up, tattoo plastered, bald psycho bit*h but I don't get to help the regal and beautiful asari find peace in my Shep's arms??? WTF?

So yeah, it's one of the main things I'm looking forward to in ME3.

Also: Did anyone notice that in ME1 you can survey a mineral called "Samarium"?

lol it happened to me a few times on uncharted worlds, it was a heavy metal I think haha:D

I feel the same way man. I need to make sure I have a carryover save with no romance from ME1 or ME2 just for her.

Haha Yeah I know what you mean, I'm working on the same thing right now, My Canon shep has Liara but I'm working on that playthrough so my Canon Shep is with Samara in ME3 haha

[GuardianAngel470]

yorkj86 wrote...

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

My main wish for ME3 is that Samara is a romance option, every time I play through ME2 it makes me so so frigin sad that I can't romance her and help her find some peace.

I mean, I get to fix the messed up, tattoo plastered, bald psycho bit*h but I don't get to help the regal and beautiful asari find peace in my Shep's arms??? WTF?

So yeah, it's one of the main things I'm looking forward to in ME3.

Some pretty controversial things you're saying here.  Maybe you're just speaking roughtly, though.  Would you really say that you "fix" Jack?  Is the only place Samara can find peace in Shepard's arms?

I think he's just speaking roughly. You help her but don't fix her.

And yes, the best place for Samara to find peace is with Shepard. He/She has no equal and what Samara desperately needs is to be shown that not all romances end in 400 year long tragedy strings and broken hearts.

[Xilizhra]

And yes, the best place for Samara to find peace is with Shepard. He/She has no equal and what Samara desperately needs is to be shown that not all romances end in 400 year long tragedy strings and broken hearts.

Well, possibly not needs, but it definitely help a lot.

[Zeonae]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

I mean, I get to fix the messed up, tattoo plastered, bald psycho bit*h but I don't get to help the regal and beautiful asari find peace in my Shep's arms??? WTF?

You are very right about your thoughts on Samara,but try to be gentle with everyone else too please 

[BiancoAngelo7]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

My main wish for ME3 is that Samara is a romance option, every time I play through ME2 it makes me so so frigin sad that I can't romance her and help her find some peace.

I mean, I get to fix the messed up, tattoo plastered, bald psycho bit*h but I don't get to help the regal and beautiful asari find peace in my Shep's arms??? WTF?

So yeah, it's one of the main things I'm looking forward to in ME3.

Some pretty controversial things you're saying here.  Maybe you're just speaking roughtly, though.  Would you really say that you "fix" Jack?  Is the only place Samara can find peace in Shepard's arms?

I think he's just speaking roughly. You help her but don't fix her.

And yes, the best place for Samara to find peace is with Shepard. He/She has no equal and what Samara desperately needs is to be shown that not all romances end in 400 year long tragedy strings and broken hearts.

Yeah I was just broadly generalizing and kinda joking as well. I didn't mean that you actually "fix" Jack. I meant it in the sense that you can help her find some peace in her otherwise rage-filled solitary life.

That's what I meant also for Samara, kind of like what GuardianAngel said, Samara could find peace in Shep's arms because her age places her at a unique position to enjoy her potential relationship with Shepard until the end of her days as well as them being atune to having violent lifes that put unique burdens on them that only they have the power/duty to resolve.

Didn't mean that Jack is not a good LI or anything, I like her "help her/romance her" LI plot.

It just felt organic and normal to me that Samara is primed for the same kind of opportunity.

Plus ok I'm biased cuz I think she's the most beautiful LI in the game but that's another thing.

[BiancoAngelo7]

Zeonae wrote...

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

I mean, I get to fix the messed up, tattoo plastered, bald psycho bit*h but I don't get to help the regal and beautiful asari find peace in my Shep's arms??? WTF?

You are very right about your thoughts on Samara,but try to be gentle with everyone else too please 

yeah sorry let my excitement for Samara get the best of me:blush: