13634 réponses à ce sujet

[PauseforEffect]

Sorry to drop in abruptly but I am not certain on something that I saw about a few days ago. There was a brief fictional situation someone posted about their Shepard giving Samara the order to kill Joker as a way to demonstrate the flaw in the Oath of Subsumation. Do you think Samara would have followed such an absurd order that was meant to abuse her Oath?

[Flamewielder]

A piece of fiction by Dean the Young, yes. Everyone's entitled to their own perception of any fictional character. The situation he sets up is contrived and stunts Samara's character, IMO.

1) He deliberately equates Justicars with Paragons to generate outrage (trolling) or challenge perception (playing devil's advocate). They are different things.

2) He makes assumptions about the Third Oath that are not shared with other players.

3) He points out contradictions between game lore and game mechanic without trying to reconcile them. No game is perfect and few writers explore all possible ramifications/impacts of their creations on the universe they inhabit.

Since Samara never states when or under what conditions her Oath of Subsumation would terminate, we may reasonably assume that ordering outright murder without justification would be considered just cause to consider the Oath terminated. The Oaths of Subsumation exist to allow smooth cooperation and coexistence between the strict Justicar Order and the looser yet legitimate asari authorities. It stands to reason that ordering a Justicar to biotically pulp Joker serves no purpose in the quest to stop the Collectors or the Reapers, and as such Samara is under no obligation to obey it.

It's a strawman situation.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 17 février 2011 - 06:09 .

[kelmar6821]

What fanfic are y'all refering To?

[PauseforEffect]

Thank you Flamewielder. I suppose what makes it difficult to defend Samara is the lack of detail in the Justicar Code. Though it seems simple enough in spirit. Defend the innocent, punish the wicked. Samara's warning sounds no more unreasonable than Grunt's threat that if Shepard doesn't find strong enough enemies, he'll kill Shepard.

[Flamewielder]

kelmar6821 wrote...
What fanfic are y'all refering To?

Dean was trying to rattle the Samara fans' cage in the party banter thread. That was a month ago, I think.

[Rusty Pabst]

Two of my favorite Samara images:




http://masseffectscr...ntains-spoilers (WARNING: Link contains a spoiler image from the DLC assignment Overlord.)

Modifié par Rusty Pabst, 18 février 2011 - 07:57 .

[Flamewielder]

PrimalEden wrote...
Thank you Flamewielder. I suppose what makes it difficult to defend Samara is the lack of detail in the Justicar Code. Though it seems simple enough in spirit. Defend the innocent, punish the wicked. Samara's warning sounds no more unreasonable than Grunt's threat that if Shepard doesn't find strong enough enemies, he'll kill Shepard.

My reasoning is: even 5000 sutras do not begin to cover the entirety of a nation's criminal legislation. It merely qualifies as a solid beginning, a statement of fundamental values and beliefs upon which all other legislation is based. A "Constitution" of sorts, something all asari agree upon ("it's OUR Code"). Samara's actions all fall under 2 essential categories in order of priority: 1) protect the innocent, 2) punish the unjust. If 1) was impossible, then focus on 2).

Justicars are tasked with the elimination of dangerous A-Y runaways. They are given "execution lists", implying goverment sanction. They swear Oaths of Subsumation so that their enforcement of justice does not interfere with "laxer" legitimate authorities.

Are they perfect paragons? Far from it. Paragon implies a degree of compassion Justicars may not allow themselves. But I'd expect them to score something around 60-75% paragon and 25-40% renegade. Why? Because the definition of a renegade is not to feel oneself bound by rules or restrictions (or even basic human decency) in the pursuit of an objective (noble or otherwise).

Justicars are bound to protect the innocents, renegades are not.
Justicars are bound by the tenets of the Code, renegades consider rules as obstacles.
Justicars punish the unjust, they do not offer second chances... paragons do.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 19 février 2011 - 01:18 .

[fainmaca]

Hey there.

I'm writing a ME 3 fanfic at the moment, called Into The Unknown.

Recently I reintroduced Samara to the story. What I wanted to do was get your opinion about how I'm portraying her. I've tried to develop the character a bit, but am wary of straying too far from what she was in the game. I'd like to hear what Samara's fans think of my portrayal of her, along with any constructyive criticisms that I may be able to apply.

What I'm going for is a more 'open' Samara. I'm trying, through various events and conversations, to make her less reluctant to get to know her team mates and become less of the Lone Wolf she was when Shepard found her. Basically I'm trying to let Shepard get to know her a little more intimately without it being a romance story, if that makes sense.

Please, let me know what you think.

Link: http://www.fanfictio...nto_the_Unknown

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

yorkj86 wrote...

So, Conrad Verner. He means well, but generally, he's a nuisance, and he gets in the way of Commander Shepard. What would Samara do if she had her own Conrad Verner, who got in the way of her stopping a crime?

Teach him/her the virtue of not being a complete idiot!

If that fails. Biotic-punch-to-face.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 19 février 2011 - 01:15 .

[SlottsMachine]

yorkj86 wrote...

So, Conrad Verner. He means well, but generally, he's a nuisance, and he gets in the way of Commander Shepard. What would Samara do if she had her own Conrad Verner, who got in the way of her stopping a crime?

At first I thought she'd go the paragon route, but after thinking about it a little longer, I think she'd threaten him. She wouldn't hurt him or anything, but she'd want him to know that it wouldn't be in his best interest to bump into her again.

[nevar00]

You know, I like Samara and everything, but I think they missed the boat on her. To me, her and Thane were just too similiar as far as personalities go: both carry themselves majestically, both believed in a high sense of code/honor/all that jazz, both have children issues, neither feel responsible for their actions...



I think they should've made Samara out to be a stuck up b*tch, who is constantly snarling at Shephard and sassing him at every opportunity. By that I don't mean the way Jack was, but more of a stuck up snobbish character. Then make Morinth a more sympathetic figure, and you have an actual choice when it comes down to those two. It just seems like such a stretch to me that even a totally renegade Shephard would honestly kill Samara and let Morinth take her place...

[Kudara]

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

So, Conrad Verner. He means well, but generally, he's a nuisance, and he gets in the way of Commander Shepard. What would Samara do if she had her own Conrad Verner, who got in the way of her stopping a crime?

At first I thought she'd go the paragon route, but after thinking about it a little longer, I think she'd threaten him. She wouldn't hurt him or anything, but she'd want him to know that it wouldn't be in his best interest to bump into her again.

Im not sure she would threaten him, she might actully figure out a way to explain to him how his actions were detrimental to his intent in such a way that he might listen to her... or at least figure out he didn't want to get on her bad side.

I mean Conrad's intentions are good... its just that hes not that bright and is easily taken advantage of.  He is in many ways one of the innocents she's supposed to protect...if a particularly annoying one.

[Kudara]

yorkj86 wrote...

People here find reasons to dislike Samara.  They're there, if you only think hard enough.  Samara and Morinth are supposed to appeal to your morality, first and foremost.  Their characters themselves are only secondary to that aspect.

Yeah, Samara and Thane are very similar.  I don't really know what Bioware's writers were thinking,  Maybe Thane was an idea for a character that was on the table, and his name came up when the developers realized they needed another heterosexual pairing for FemShep.  Despite the fact that the asari are not female (<_<), there sure is a distinct lack of female non-asari/asari pairings in the game.

I think their similarities have more to do with their relative age and their generally contemplative outlook than anything else. I find Samara/Thane/Mordin to be alike in that characteristic and in many of the ways they react to Shepard and others.

Edit: I think the lack of female non-asari/asari pairings isn't that surprising.  I mean there are a limited number of female humans/turians/drell that would be interested in an asari especially compared to the males of thier respective species.

Modifié par Kudara, 19 février 2011 - 02:56 .

[Flamewielder]

nevar00 wrote...
You know, I like Samara and everything, but I think they missed the boat on her. To me, her and Thane were just too similiar as far as personalities go: both carry themselves majestically, both believed in a high sense of code/honor/all that jazz, both have children issues, neither feel responsible for their actions...

Ah, but there is one fundamental difference between the two:

Samara (and Justicars) believe an individual's actions are his/her entire responsibility. At all times. You do something unjust, you pay.

Thane believes in a separation between body and soul, whereas the soul cannot be held accountable for the body's action. The responsibility lies squarely on the individual who ordered the assassination, leaving him blameless. Samara would argue that the soul has no manifestation on this plane without the body it inhabits and that any castigation deserved by the soul would need be applied to the body it inhabits, and vice versa.

We are given to understand Thane was used to as a tool against some pretty nasty people, and not just any random target. While this may be laudable from a law-enforcement perspective in terms of net result (and thus would find approval from Samara, were she given the whole picture), it certainly cannot be considered conventional law-enforcement.

Say Samara happened to stumble onto Thane as he was preparing to strike some mobster. Unless Samara recognized the mobster as an unjust person, she'd likely feel compelled to stop Thane before he injured/killed an "innocent".

[Rusty Pabst]

Another favorite Samara image:







http://masseffectscr...vorites-part-4/

[Flamewielder]

I've been thinking that Diane Kruger might make a wonderful Samara. Opinions?

[xRAYZ0Rx]

Flamewielder wrote...

I've been thinking that Diane Kruger might make a wonderful Samara. Opinions?

I'm actually going to agree with that one. She could definatly pull it off.

[DirtyVagrant]

I could see Diane Kruger as Samara.

[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...
So, Conrad Verner. He means well, but generally, he's a nuisance, and he gets in the way of Commander Shepard. What would Samara do if she had her own Conrad Verner, who got in the way of her stopping a crime?

Conrad: "Justicar Samara! Let me help you!"

Samara: *___*
Conrad: "I'll be going home now..."

But seriously? I think Conrad would be in great danger of getting himself killed. mostly by people shooting at Samara. In order for Samara to kill him, he'd have to be willfully trying to stop Samara from, say, catching Morinth. His usual brand of interference would only earn him a biotic pull or throw to remove him out of the way (and in Conrad's case, I think she'd make the experience suitably frightening so as to not having to do it again).

Given the Justicars' popularity in vids an drama, I'm sure Samara has dealt with a lot more fangirls than Shepard... 

[Flamewielder]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...
I've been thinking that Diane Kruger might make a wonderful Samara. Opinions?

I don't have a clue about her acting ability, or what her voice sounds like.  She does look similar though.  She's 34, so I don't think that the makeup artists needs to try and make her look younger hypothetically, since Samara looks around 40ish.

Actually, her acting is good enough to have landed her some awards, mostly in Europe, notably for her role in Inglorious Bastards. On a more humorous tone, she plays Professor Abigail Chase in the National Treasure series. Her repertoire is wide enough that I think she'd pull it off convincingly.

[xRAYZ0Rx]

Flamewielder wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...
I've been thinking that Diane Kruger might make a wonderful Samara. Opinions?

I don't have a clue about her acting ability, or what her voice sounds like.  She does look similar though.  She's 34, so I don't think that the makeup artists needs to try and make her look younger hypothetically, since Samara looks around 40ish.

Actually, her acting is good enough to have landed her some awards, mostly in Europe, notably for her role in Inglorious Bastards. On a more humorous tone, she plays Professor Abigail Chase in the National Treasure series. Her repertoire is wide enough that I think she'd pull it off convincingly.

loved both those movies. and her in them.

call up BioWare. they need to know this stuff!

though she needs a more mellow serious tone. Her previous roles are alittle upbeat.

Modifié par xRAYZ0Rx, 20 février 2011 - 11:11 .