13634 réponses à ce sujet

[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...
They can also act as mediators, whose judgments are legally binding. I wonder if the judgment of a Justicar can be overturned by a judge. Maybe only by the asari equivalent of a Supreme Court justice.

Indeed. And their judgement often surprises both parties, suggesting that perhaps Justicars concern themselves more with their judgement's impacts on third party innocents over the litteral application of the law.

[SlottsMachine]

 JD, this time I'm going to try and prove that for some reaching the conclusion that Samara is a hypocrite without making leaps in judgement, is a valid one for them, and I'll try not to talk in circles like I sometimes do. 

Point 1) The Paragon stare: If the player views this as an act of judgment, who is she to judge a paragon Shepard, considering the ruthless steak in her.

Our view of the "paragon stare" is one of guidance if anything (and we find it damn cute), with Samara trying to guide us to the right choice, with those big eyes of her's.

Point 2) The morality system, and how it applies to Samara's perception of you, as it is possible to rack up the required renegade points, while making decisions that likely fall in line with Samara's own morality within the confines of the Justicar Code, for her to inform you of her obligation to kill you when her oath ends.

I view this as an epic failure on the writers part to properly show the danger Samara poses to an "evil Shepard".

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 23 février 2011 - 10:16 .

[xRAYZ0Rx]

Also stands true with the paragon/renegade actions, it makes the player play the game in a way not many may WANT to "role play" the game. For example. want all the crew to survive? Pick a side. Renegade or paragon. Otherwise Tali/Legion will die or Miranda/Jack will die.

[Rusty Pabst]

Two more Samara images:









http://masseffectscr...vorites-part-7/

[David Hingtgen]

Are you running like 32xAA or something? Those textures look very nice.

[xRAYZ0Rx]

Rusty Pabst wrote...

Two more Samara images:




http://masseffectscr...vorites-part-7/

you should get some pics of her when shes using her biotics. These would make some awesome desktops.

[Flamewielder]

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...
Point 1) The Paragon stare: If the player views this as an act of judgment, who is she to judge a paragon Shepard, considering the ruthless steak in her.

Samara: *___*

If you get the impression Samara is judging you. chances are you ARE getting judged. Every time. She is constantly gauging your actions, making sure they serve the "greater good" even if they might deviate from the Code right there and then. The Third Oath (rarely invoked) implies the justicar's belief in the virtue/nobility of your cause. Should you perform something "unjust", it's on your conscience. Should you ask her to perform something patently unjust and obviously irrelevant to the "greater good", she might consider herself released from her Oath (and possibly attack you).

Our view of the "paragon stare" is one of guidance if anything (and we find it damn cute), with Samara trying to guide us to the right choice, with those big eyes of her's.

Samara: "The purpose of the Code is not enlightenment. It protects the innocent and punishes the unjust."

Samara doesn't guide you; your conscience does. While she may care or perhaps even love Shepard, her duty demands that she gauges everyone's actions (including her own and Shepard's) against the "greater good" and the Code. Justicars expect any sentient being to be ultimately responsible for his/her actions. Punishment is only a natural consequence of any unjust action performed in the presence of a justicar.

Point 2) The morality system, and how it applies to Samara's perception of you, as it is possible to rack up the required renegade points, while making decisions that likely fall in line with Samara's own morality within the confines of the Justicar Code, for her to inform you of her obligation to kill you when her oath ends.

I view this as an epic failure on the writers part to properly show the danger Samara poses to an "evil Shepard".

I disagree: the dossiers/codex are quite explicit about what Shepard should expect from recruiting a justicar. Officer Dara is also pretty explicit about what Justicars do, should you bother asking.

I therefore question the logic of a Renegade Shep recruiting Samara at all... TIM never ordered you to recruit her specifically; he actually provided you with another remarkably powerful biotic specialist (Jack) who's morality happens to suit a Renegade Shepard perfectly. Why bother with Samara (and Morinth) at all?

Bottom line, If I'm role-playing a ruthless renegade, I don't even bother doing her entirely optional recruitment mission and I successfully complete the SM with Jack. No complication, no headache.

On the other hand, a paragon Shep (or better yet, a Paragade) gets along splendidly with Samara. Protecting the innocent/punish the guilty will keep you on the Paragon path easily enough (with a few renegade points for sacrificing compassion in favor of a strict enforcement of justice).

[SlottsMachine]

With the second point Flame I was just saying that there is a difference between a "renegade Shep,"
and an "evil Shepard", and that the morality system doesn't account for that.

I may be incorrect, but doesn't Samara give the paragon stare prior to even having made the decision, if I was wrong, well then my bad. And in hindsight "guide" wasn't really the right word.

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 25 février 2011 - 06:41 .

[Flamewielder]

I remember a minor NPC in Baldur's Gate complaining about how paladins creeped him out: paladins in AD&D had an innate ability to "Detect Evil", which Bioware writers creatively translated as a piercing stare that gave one the impression that paladins saw right through them. The poor NPC was utterly consumed by a paranoid fear of paladins, believing they somehow could know about every little sin he'd committed.

While we joke about Samara giving us the paragon stare, I think justicars likely give everyone the same appraising look. Our human Justice may be blind... but the Justicars see all.

[Kudara]

yorkj86 wrote...

Some people call a very Paragon Shepard "naive."  Captain Bailey practically calls Paragon Shepard out for being naive, during Thane's recruitment mission.  Some people call Samara "naive." 

Recently, we've discussed how Samara isn't actually Paragon, no matter how much the writers and developers might want the player to believe she is.

Here's where I'm going with this: Given the above, do you think that Samara might regard a particularly Paragon Shepard as "naive?"

Probably, some of the sillier things a Paragon Shepard has to do or say to get those paragon points are cringe worthy.  I suspect that's alot of the reason those people writing ME2 fanfics rapidly deviate from the choices present in the game for their characters.

In my story Amanda Shepard would probably be defined as a Paragade.  If I were to play the story without needing to rack up paragon or renegade points then I would play mostly as a neutral character.

[Xilizhra]

I think Samara would see a Paragon Shepard as admirable and the exemplar of everything she hopes to see in society. Whether or not she's naive... I think Samara would only look at her results.

[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...
Some people call a very Paragon Shepard "naive."  Captain Bailey practically calls Paragon Shepard out for being naive, during Thane's recruitment mission.

I'd say that's a fair statement, but that's how the game developpers defined the Paragon pole of their morality scale. Not all characters can be expected to turn into social workers like Helena Blake when being simply told to clean up their act... A realistic paragon might actually be a "paragade".

Recently, we've discussed how Samara isn't actually Paragon, no matter how much the writers and developers might want the player to believe she is.

And I agree that strict enforcement of justice at the expense of compassion will earn you Renegade points along the way. Protecting the innocents will also earn you Paragon points... lots of them. If you went through the ME1 and ME2 morality playthroughs as Samara, I believe you'd end up paragade (i.e. a realistic paragon).

Here's where I'm going with this: Given the above, do you think that Samara might regard a particularly Paragon Shepard as "naive?"

Perhaps she would. But I think she'd sympathize with such an idealistic Shepard, she herself is also idealistic afterall: she believes in this idealized version of justice embodied by the Code. She would admire Paragon Shep as a "good person" even if she felt he/she was naive when it came to punishing the unjust.

After all, Paragon Shep believes anyone can change for the better and deserves a second chance ("All right, go... but don't make me regret it!"). Samara knows some people can change but must still be held accountable to the full extent of the Code ("If you did the deed, you'll bleed...").

[Xilizhra]

I'd say that's a fair statement, but that's how the game developpers defined the Paragon pole of their morality scale. Not all characters can be expected to turn into social workers like Helena Blake when being simply told to clean up their act... A realistic paragon might actually be a "paragade".

It's fairly simple. Anyone who can't be redeemed, Shepard kills.

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...
I think Samara would see a Paragon Shepard as admirable and the exemplar of everything she hopes to see in society. Whether or not she's naive... I think Samara would only look at her results.

If the galaxy was populated with only paragons, the justicars would be pretty much out of business... Lethal paragon A-Y's could be relied never to attempt a melding  that would hurt or kill, there'd be no criminals to hunt and punish... and everyone would fall in behind Shepard without so much as an "Ah yes..." and kick the Reaper's cybernetic butts!

Sadly, the ME universe appears a neutral shade of purple.

[Xilizhra]

Indeed, but Shepard's presence makes it bluer. Or redder, as the case may be.

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'd say that's a fair statement, but that's how the game developpers defined the Paragon pole of their morality scale. Not all characters can be expected to turn into social workers like Helena Blake when being simply told to clean up their act... A realistic paragon might actually be a "paragade".

It's fairly simple. Anyone who can't be redeemed, Shepard kills.

Yeah, that's pretty much how it is... but how can you tell who's genuinely remorseful and who's just taking Paragon Shep for a ride? I think that's the main reason why an ultra-paragon can be considered naive in a grey universe like ME's.

Mind you, this is a role-playing game: you're not only writing Shepard's story, you're also shaping Shepard's universe just as you'd do in a fanfiction. That's why Helena Blake improbably becomes a social worker on Omega, should you spare her... The ME universe of your saved game is different from mine or anyone else's; it if both precious and unique.

Indeed, but Shepard's presence makes it bluer. Or redder, as the case may be.

And it seems we are of a same mind on this!

Modifié par Flamewielder, 25 février 2011 - 11:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Actually, isn't Helena Blake the only criminal Shepard actually lets go? Father Kyle and the L2 hijackers are both arrested, Elnora is automatically let go if you don't interrupt-kill her so it doesn't feel like it counts, the batarians in Mordin's recruitment mission seemed like desparate civilians...

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, isn't Helena Blake the only criminal Shepard actually lets go? Father Kyle and the L2 hijackers are both arrested, Elnora is automatically let go if you don't interrupt-kill her so it doesn't feel like it counts, the batarians in Mordin's recruitment mission seemed like desparate civilians...

You're given the same option with Fist (unless you brought Wrex along... *boom*).

Balak actually holds hostages, so it's different. But Samara would be obliged to let him run (i.e. Paragon option) to protect the innocent hostages.

[Xilizhra]

Well, you can't apprehend Fist. You have a time limit because Tali could die at any moment, so it's either kill him or don't.