13634 réponses à ce sujet

[Flamewielder]

Essentially the same for Helena Blake. Attemping to apprehend her (non-persuasion Paragon) results in a blood bath. This I think would be Samara's choice and would be an example of a situation where her choice would clash with the "ultra-paragon".

As for Fist, he'd get the bullet either from Wrex or Samara, while "ultra-paragon" Shep would cut him loose (after releasing the OSD to Emily Wong, essentially ending Fist's criminal career). Again, a clash between Samara and "ultra-paragon" Shep. Both examples on the issue of compassion.

[Xilizhra]

Would Samara actually clash with Shepard, or simply disagree? Shepard isn't doing anything against the Code, as far as I know, just not acting like a justicar.

[Flamewielder]

While I don't consider Samara hypocritical, she IS conflicted on the issue of compassion. The ideal justicar acts with subtelty whenever possible, and brutally when it is not. Samara is obviously happy to have discouraged pirates from attacking the freighter she was hitching a ride on. She never sought to pursue the would-be pirates, content to have protected the innocent freighter crew from harm and prevented an injustice from being committed.
Justicars do not prosecute at all costs. They are counscious of potential colateral damage and will avoid it whenever they can. It suggests a philosophy similar to the Oath of Peace from Lord Foul's Bane by Stephen R Donaldson:

"Do not hurt where holding is enough,
do not wound where hurting is enough,
do not maim where wounding is enough,
do not kill where maiming is enough,
the greatest warrior is he who does not have to kill."

However, such a philosophy appears only to apply when the Justicar is employing the "subtle" approach. Once the "brutal" approach becomes necessary (such as when confronting armed mercenaries), the philosophy apparently becomes more expedient and ruthless:

"Cooperate and live,
interfere and die."

Modifié par Flamewielder, 26 février 2011 - 02:09 .

[Flamewielder]

By "clashing" I meant verbally, of course...

[Xilizhra]

But Samara never says anything about what Shepard does.

[Flamewielder]

She approves your decision of destroying the Collector base, noting that in her opinion, TIM doesn't have the wisdom to use it. She also expresses her disapproval should you choose to keep the base and hand it over to Cerberus.

Granted, she doesn't express her views on lesser issues... but neither do the other squaddies for that matter. We can assume these may be happening "off-screen" somehow.

I guess that's why "more squad interaction" ranks so high in the community's list of "DO WANT's"

Modifié par Flamewielder, 26 février 2011 - 11:02 .

[Flamewielder]

Thinking of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, I realized how similar a Justicar's plight is similar to that of the Bloodguard. Both forsake so much for what they consider their duty... with the most tragic consequences for both Samara and the Bloodguard.

[Flamewielder]

Started another playthrough after a few months hiatus... and just recruited Samara. I realize I was unfair to Renegade Sheps: officer Dara is the only one warning you about what to expect from justicars, so it's easy for a renegade Shep to recruit her only to realize she'd never workout on his/her team. More's the pity, as I think the haters might be fewer in numbers if they were able to make an educated decision about recruiting her or not.

Compare that to Zaeed: you KNOW he's a mercenary/bounty hunter. You know he's on the renegade side of the scale, even before you recruit him AND you have to option of letting him burn if you feel he's not compatible with your team. Not so with Samara: you're essentially stuck with her until you choose between her inflexible Code and her serial-killer daughter. Most renegades wouldn't bother with either if they knew what to expect.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 27 février 2011 - 04:25 .

[Kudara]

Flamewielder wrote...

Started another playthrough after a few months hiatus... and just recruited Samara. I realize I was unfair to Renegade Sheps: officer Dara is the only one warning you about what to expect from justicars, so it's easy for a renegade Shep to recruit her only to realize she'd never workout on his/her team. More's the pity, as I think the haters might be fewer in numbers if they were able to make an educated decision about recruiting her or not.

Compare that to Zaeed: you KNOW he's a mercenary/bounty hunter. You know he's on the renegade side of the scale, even before you recruit him AND you have to option of letting him burn if you feel he's not compatible with your team. Not so with Samara: you're essentially stuck with her until you choose between her inflexible Code and her serial-killer daughter. Most renegades wouldn't bother with either if they knew what to expect.

Fair enough, at least you do have to speak to Officer Dara to get furthur along on Samara's recruitment quest.  Any Renegade questioning her will start getting the idea that maybe this won't work out so well.

[Flamewielder]

Yes. I was under the impression that the conversation with Dara unlocked the Codex entry on Justicars and it turns out it only becomes available AFTER you've recruited Samara. That's fine if you're playing a paragon/paragade Shep (like most Samara fans) but it really reeks for the renegades who might have simply decided Samara didn't fit in his/her team.

[Xilizhra]

Conveniently, it also makes choosing Morinth more justifiable, for those Renegades who don't want Samara anywhere near them.

[Flamewielder]

That's pretty much my take on it. Renegade Shep can pretty much whip the rest of his dirty dozen in line... but Samara? Nope, not worth the aggravation.

Mind you, my paragade Femshep (Mira) is merely ruthless, not insane or sociopathic... she still recruited and managed to make friends with Samara even if she ended up siding with TIM on the CB issue. My other paragade FemShep sole survivor (Lorna) and my (main) paragon MaleShep war hero (Eric) both sided with Samara and destroyed the CB (for slightly different reasons).
I play Eric as the classic paragon hero ("Together to infinity... and beyond!"), while I play Lorna as a more fiery, emotional/impulsive yet caring person ("Those Cerberus bastards will pay!"). Mira is ruthless and calculating, rational and realistic ("Survival of the fittest, ladies and gentlemen... let's make sure humanity's as fit as we can make it... no one's gonna give us a free lunch for stopping the Reapers.")

[Flamewielder]

It got me wondering if TIM didn't deliberately hide this crucial bit of intel about Samara, just so you could clash with her, reminding you that aliens are, well, aliens and they may not always share the same sense of values or justice as humans do.

[Xilizhra]

http://social.biowar...542/blog/14106/

I wrote this thing in maybe half an hour, in a flash of sleepy inspiration. Is it good? Well, it's really short, and that plus other things makes me really not know. On the other hand, it's one piece of mine I guarantee isn't plagued by my normal issues of overthinking. I wrote it entirely because I felt like it and because I didn't want my inspiration for it to flicker out like an old candle. Take it for what it is. And now I'm rambling; sorry about that. I'll just go to bed now.

[Flamewielder]

It's quite good, Xil. I've always felt Samara took up the Oath so that she'd find the necessary resolve to kill Morinth. Their story is emotionally complex, much more than the garden-variety hater can appreciate. It's a very mature story.

Interestingly, when I first read your short I was uncertain if it was spoken by Samara or Morinth. Perhaps it was simply that it's 6:00AM and I didn't have my coffe yet... but I felt that it could easily have been the voice of Mirala, caught inside Morinth along with the memories of Morinth's many victims. Mother, daughter, mirror, mirror...

[Xilizhra]

Ah? Excellent; I thought that posting it in the Samara thread would kill the surprise or something, but it looks like it worked out rather well. I didn't even know that it could have been Morinth at first.

[Flamewielder]

"kill the surprise"? How so?

I think the whole concept of an A-Y's childhood personality locked up in a new gestalt personality created by the trauma of the initial meld/drain is wonderful. I think the writer missed out on a great opportunity; imagine if Samara had been given a brief glimpse of Mirala during the final confrontation? How more heartwrenching it would have all felt? THAT would definitely have made Morinth unexpectedly sympathetic.
As it stands, people choose mostly choose Morinth to unlock Dominate or just for the lulz of playing a ridiculously insane... er... renegade Shepard. Missed opportunities...

[Ashira Shepard]

Flamewielder wrote...

"kill the surprise"? How so?

I think the whole concept of an A-Y's childhood personality locked up in a new gestalt personality created by the trauma of the initial meld/drain is wonderful. I think the writer missed out on a great opportunity; imagine if Samara had been given a brief glimpse of Mirala during the final confrontation? How more heartwrenching it would have all felt? THAT would definitely have made Morinth unexpectedly sympathetic.

Sand...in my eye. I don't live anywhere near sand but it is in my EYE!

*ahem* *sniffle*

That thread, "If You Choose Morinth Over Samara..." I still find it so very surprising how blunt some people are in hating on Samara. Then I find it not so surprising that %99 of those people play jerkass renegades. <_<

Also...

yorkj86 wrote...

Asari genetics, how do they work?  No, seriously, it changes from game to game.

The first rule of Asari Genetics; you do not talk about Asari Genetics. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie]

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 28 février 2011 - 02:39 .

[Flamewielder]

*pats Ashira's back, offering a tissue*

Now, now... it's ok, the writer dropped the ball on that one but when you look at the bright side, it's a great fanfic topic.

Objectively, dangerous A-Y are a threat to other sentient beings. Threats can be managed in many ways, including capture and detention or elimination. We do it for predators, secure in our belief that "animals are not humans", even though dolphin studies tentalizingly suggest we're not the only sentient beings on this planet.

We emprison serial-killers to protect society (and some cultures may execute them), even if these murders are the result of mental illness. Call it a sanatorium or an asylum or a mental institution, it still looks pretty much like a prison from the inside... ("Girl Interrupted", anyone? "One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest"?).

Asari society considers dangerous A-Y a threat. They institutionalize them for life, as it is an incurable condition and has been so for millenia; the perspectives of finding a cure for it anytime soon are dim... Those that runaway and kill are hunted down by justicars and eliminated. Available information describes this as an unfortunately brutal but necessary process, to protect other sentient beings. Apparently, runaway A-Y's soon become so powerful and pose so much of a threat that they specifically require the involvement of Justicars, who normally deal with the most violent and dangerous criminal elements.

It doesn't get more clean cut than that... Morinth must die to protect innocents... or is this the REAL reason a mother would kill her own daughter? Could it be that Samara actually wanted to free Mirala from Morinth the only way known to the asari? Could it be that Samara's final words are in fact directed to her beloved Mirala, her favorite child emprisoned in the abomination that is Morinth? "Find peace in the embrace of the Godess" indeed...

Modifié par Flamewielder, 28 février 2011 - 04:51 .

[Xilizhra]

Flamewielder wrote...

"kill the surprise"? How so?

I think the whole concept of an A-Y's childhood personality locked up in a new gestalt personality created by the trauma of the initial meld/drain is wonderful. I think the writer missed out on a great opportunity; imagine if Samara had been given a brief glimpse of Mirala during the final confrontation? How more heartwrenching it would have all felt? THAT would definitely have made Morinth unexpectedly sympathetic.
As it stands, people choose mostly choose Morinth to unlock Dominate or just for the lulz of playing a ridiculously insane... er... renegade Shepard. Missed opportunities...

Well, initially I wanted to make it look like Shepard thinking about Liara, but I ultimately gave up on that because I couldn't make it sound good enough. It probably works better this way anyway.

[Flamewielder]

@ Xil

Oh I see. So your story worked out, just not the way you anticipated... I like that.

And the whole idea of a mother trapped in a justicar, child trapped in a serial-killer has a certain karmic symmetry. It improves both characters, rather than stunt one in favor of the other.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 28 février 2011 - 04:52 .

[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...
Hm. I guess I'm the only person who posts in the Samara thread who doesn't like Morinth's character in any way.

Don't worry york... we still don't like Morinth, as she was written in the game.  But it could have been a much more interesting character without taking anything away from Samara. The Morinth portrayed in the game is stil unsympathetic... Xil and I simply agree that a slightly different portrayal might actually have made BOTH characters more appealing.