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[Biotic_Warlock]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, isn't Helena Blake the only criminal Shepard actually lets go? Father Kyle and the L2 hijackers are both arrested, Elnora is automatically let go if you don't interrupt-kill her so it doesn't feel like it counts, the batarians in Mordin's recruitment mission seemed like desparate civilians...

Depends on what you consider a criminal.  Shepard could be considered a criminal, I suppose.  Rana Thanoptis and Shiala could both be considered criminals, although Shiala does try to redeem herself.

What about fist?
Isnt he a criminal?

[Flamewielder]

Fist IS a criminal and while paragon Shepard may decide to let him go (because he doesn't have time to arrest him, he's gotta save Tali) Samara would agree with Wrex and shoot the guy.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Flamewielder wrote...

Fist IS a criminal and while paragon Shepard may decide to let him go (because he doesn't have time to arrest him, he's gotta save Tali) Samara would agree with Wrex and shoot the guy.

Well at least you can shout at wrex about it.
Argue with samara and after ME2 she'll biotic kick you somewhere painful. 

Hopefully i didnt upset her with anything

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 01 mars 2011 - 01:58 .

[SlottsMachine]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Maybe...probably.  The thing is, I'm not exactly sure what constitutes a criminal in ME.  If someone tells me that "Fist is a criminal because of *insert reason*", I could apply that reason to an awful lot of characters in ME, including Shepard most likely. 

This is true, what I find interesting is that due to reason out of our control, we are forced to either kill a criminal for *insert reason* or let them go. Take Fist for instance, does he deserve the death penalty for his crimes? No, not really. Does he need to be arrested? Yes. But you don't have that choice, you've got more urgent matters, so what are you going to do? Kill him for lack of an alternative, or let him go free. Tough choice.

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 02 mars 2011 - 03:44 .

[Flamewielder]

If you asked C-Sec, Fist would be emprisonned. If you asked Samara, she'd probably kill him but the Code is rather strict... If you consider yourself "at war" with Saren and the Reapers, then pretty much anything goes... it becomes a moral choice, not a legal one.

[Xilizhra]

I see her as someone who's 'true' personality is using the Justicar as a shield and cover to murder Morinth, not unwilling in the least.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Rusty Pabst]

Another Samara image:



http://masseffectscr...vorites-part-9/

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...

I see her as someone who's 'true' personality is using the Justicar as a shield and cover to murder Morinth, not unwilling in the least.

What are your thoughts on this?

As the Codex describes it, the elimination of dangerous A-Y is handed over to the Justicars and is considered a public service. Soldiers are public servants that are expected to kill other sentient beings sooner or later in their carreer; do people become soldiers because they are murderers at heart? Given that what Samara tells you matches the Codex entries (and we're assuming these are unbiased, as opposed to a character's dialogue), we have no reason to believe Samara is not representative of your average justicar.

I believe soldiers (and justicars) are reconciled with the fact that they will be called upon to kill people. They rationalize it by keeping in mind that their society expects it of them. They may comfort themselves with the notion that they are "protecting the innocent (family, friends, neighbours)" and that their enemy is "unjust", but in the end, their country/nation/people gives them a gun and a license to kill with it.

Samara believes in a Code that defines who is innocent and who is unjust, and acts accordingly. I think the Code probably considers murder to be an injustice... Morinth's execution is merely that: an execution sanctionned by asari society as a whole. The execution of a "filthy creature", to use Captain Wasea's own words...

Because Morinth is Samara's own daughter, the execution is emotionally charged. But is it murder? Not according to the Code or asari law, it seems... If Samara refused to kill her daughter, would another justicar have done so? Yes. Morinth was going to die at the hand of some justicar, unless she managed to remain lucky for another 600 years. In the course of these 600 years she would likely have killed thousands.

Is Samara a killer? Yes, she is. Is she as cold-blooded about it as her detractors claim? Samara claims she isn't: "I remember every single being I killed; they are ever present in my mind." Why bother remembering any at all, if she didn't care? "I had to hunt her down, just as she had to run away. This was never going to end well." This speaks of her resignation in the face of the inevitable; Samara did not "arrange" a murder, she hacked away part of her heart that was festering for the last 400 years. Unsurprisingly, Shepard finds her unreceptive to his/her amorous advances...

[xRAYZ0Rx]

Rusty Pabst wrote...

Another Samara image:



http://masseffectscr...vorites-part-9/

Keep this stuff going. These pics are amazing.

[xRAYZ0Rx]

@JohnnyDollar
1. Love the avatar.
2. I'm going to have to agree with you on this one. Considering Fist didn't do anything worthy of making him a galactic threat (much less a citadel threat) besides setting Tali up, he didn't commit a crime worthy of being executed over. Therefore, there is no just reason to kill him. Wrex had a reason (a criminal act still, but a reason), Shepard did not other than the fact Fist had tried to kill him previously. And honestly, In my opinion if Samara had met Fist, and he had not tried to kill her (as he did with Shepard) I honestly dont think she would've killed him. I don't think she would've had a cause to do so.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I came in here, just to say that... you're avatar is freaking amazing! (even though I don't really care for samara)
great job! 

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

*bows* Thank you than you. She reminds me of an X-man with her eyes glowing like that.

ooooh.... like storm! I didn't even think of that....

hmm, maybe I'll give Samara another chance! 

I don't wanna derail y'alls thread though so, um.... samara... discuss:  

[xRAYZ0Rx]

As I've said before, the reason I'm basically in love with Samara is her mystique and depth. Her ability to control herself, knowing what she wants and needs, and the way she holds herself emotionally and mentally. Her and Kasumi are my favorite characters and they're very far apart from eachother lol.

[Flamewielder]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Whether you consider yourself at war or not is irrelevant to whether or not you broke the law and are a criminal.  You may think that you're not, but it's not your choice after the fact, as to whether or not you actually are a criminal.  Shepard is not a Spectre when/if he kills Fist, either.  I doubt the Alliance condones military officers killing suspects in civilian areas with no due process.  I doubt whatever laws the Citadel has on the books, allow a suspect to be killed without due process. 

If Samara did kill Fist, then she could be considered a criminal.  The Citadel is not her jurisdiction.

I think justicars are aware of this. While Samara states the Code does not exist to bring about spiritual enlightenment, all asari are vividely aware of the graphical consequences of committing a crime in a justicar's presence. As fans, we're fascinated by her stare. As asari, we'd probably feel like were being mind probed (figuratively). Asari are either awed by, or in dread of the justicars (depending on how moral/ethical they are). The mere presence of a justicar compells criminals into straightening up (on pain of death).

To me, I think the reason justicars rarely leave asari space is because they realize that while asari know how to behave around justicars (i.e."Justicar comin'! Look busy!!!"), aliens do not. They know injustice exists outside of asari space but they're also conscious that trying to fix it among aliens would be counterproductive. Most aliens know nothing of justicars and do not feel the asari compulsion to "straighten up, on pain of death". I'm sure justicars are conscious of this compulsion and use it to good effect whenever they can.

However, Samara's interest in coming back to protect the innocent on Omega, or teach Krogans about compassion ("needing many bullets") clashes with this interpretation. Is it because she has spent more time among aliens, while working with Shepard's team? Has this somehow broadened her vision to consider how the Code may or may not be adapted to an alien mindset? Or is she deliberately putting herself on what seems like a suicidal path; in order to achieve peace through an honorable death?

[Biotic_Warlock]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

*bows* Thank you than you. She reminds me of an X-man with her eyes glowing like that.

ooooh.... like storm! I didn't even think of that....

hmm, maybe I'll give Samara another chance! 

I don't wanna derail y'alls thread though so, um.... samara... discuss:  

I use to dislike samara, but i realised theres a lot of character in there.
I never use to take notice of her nice reave ability (her own kind of warp) and also her dialoge after her loyalty misison.

[7Makaveli]

oh hai Samaritans long time no see.

I was perusing through sports news earlier this morning and saw an interesting story that reminded me of Samara and the Code. Basically, a BYU basketball player was kicked off the team for violating the schools code of conduct, which is to not have pre-marital sex. It is a conservative code that also instructs to live a virtuous life of honesty, regular church visits, abstaining from alcohol and drugs, even tea and coffee. The student in question had sex with his girlfriend, which he admitted to, and further disciplinary actions are to follow.

Not that I'm comparing the code of conduct to Samara's Code, but ideologically this issue raises the same debates, and one that we've encountered countless times as a criticism of Samara. On one side, people argue that the code itself is flawed and anyone who abides by it or enforces it is hypocritical, morally speaking. On the other hand, you have people say that once a person commits to said code, its not about what's right or wrong, its about commitment.

Commitment.

This is among the things Samara fans value the most in her character, and what critics question. The character is written as an archetypical representation of commitment within a grey world. You are supposed to question the feasibility of the Code, and it is even admitted that the Code has never been updated so its not like its practicality is of the highest order, but you cannot simply discount a character who has chosen the path it dictates. The BYU player for whatever reason did not have a serious commitment to the code of conduct (unless he can convince a jury that he 'accidently had sex') and the enforcers did what they had to do, which is take a tough stand. This is similar to how I'm sure Justicars are taught the Code, to uphold its judgment without wavering, and without being serious about the commitment there is no point in even trying to undertake the training.

There's two kinds of people on this issue, how appropriate that the issue divides those into black and white. There's the ones who won't question commitment when the responsibility has been taken, and the ones who can't help but backtrack. They use the private institution that is the Order to harp on the implications it has on the public environment. Its evident that cultural indoctrination fostered by a climate of extremism has
pervasive effects on society, but it just does not apply to Samara's arc, nor the Code. Critics should look at the character arc, instead of the character base if they want to evaluate Samara. What they will find is a character riddled in the clash of moral dilemma's, who by necessity exhibits one side of the fight.

Anyway, that's what the news story remined me of. I may pop in later to see what you all have to say

[Xilizhra]

I have to say that your example made Samara look really, really bad. I'd like to think that the Code isn't quite as moronic as what you compared it to.