968 réponses à ce sujet

[Adon 9]

I rhink if this thread proves anything it's that Ray's words aren't going to change anyone's minds. Those who are against same sex stuff in the games will continue to oppose it while claiming they have nothing against it in principle. Those who are for it find the words to be empty doublespeak that don't justify the absence of something that they would like to see in their game experience.



Plus, it's apparent nobody is going to change anyone else's mind here, especially when the discussions are degenerating so quickly to personal attacks and strawman arguments. Not to mention the old internet video game hubristic belief that if a thing isn't important to you it shouldn't be important to anyone and that they should stop complaining.



End of the day? I am for same sex stuff in the games and think Ray's 'explanation' doesn't really justify anything, and I will continue to state that it should be available for those who like it, while being aware that chances are good that they won't be responded to.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...
I will say that what Garrus says can be implied that his admiration and attraction goes beyond who Shepard is physically but more to what she represents to him.  She is still feminine which is something that he wants, he wants her feminine energy despite her being human.  It is a quality about her specifically that makes him want to try this.

But what kind of energies the player gives off is entirely up to them. You can play a rather domineering Female and a rather subdued Male, its up to you. 

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
1) Bioware should have just gone the route of having love interests PERIOD and allowed the same interactions with them regardless of your gender. Bam, done. Then whoever is interested in whichever character can romance that character however they want. Male Shepard and Garrus? Sure. FemShep and Miranda? Why not? Just keep the scripts the same (or somewhat similar) and we're golden.

I don;t agree with this, it just makes the characters seem less "real" if every time I  I talk to anyone I have a romance option pop up despite gender it would just seems like the easy way out, cheapen the setting and really just sort of ruin the gender choice completely.  Plus there is no need for it, this isn't a dating sim, it's an adventure story that includes romance if you so choose as an "option".  

As an option I don't need every character available to my whim, I don;t mind a few as needed but really it does nothing to strengthen the story to make this so.  In fact I quite like that Samara can reject Shepard no matter her reason.

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...
I don;t agree with this, it just makes the characters seem less "real" if every time I  I talk to anyone I have a romance option pop up despite gender it would just seems like the easy way out, cheapen the setting and really just sort of ruin the gender choice completely.  Plus there is no need for it, this isn't a dating sim, it's an adventure story that includes romance if you so choose as an "option".  

As an option I don't need every character available to my whim, I don;t mind a few as needed but really it does nothing to strengthen the story to make this so.  In fact I quite like that Samara can reject Shepard no matter her reason.

What he or she meant was that instead of restricting romance options to only one gender, have every love interest be for both genders. I do like the idea. In that situation, Samara would not be an option period since she was never a love interest to begin with.

[caynes]

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
1) Bioware should have just gone the route of having love interests PERIOD and allowed the same interactions with them regardless of your gender. Bam, done. Then whoever is interested in whichever character can romance that character however they want. Male Shepard and Garrus? Sure. FemShep and Miranda? Why not? Just keep the scripts the same (or somewhat similar) and we're golden.

I don;t agree with this, it just makes the characters seem less "real" if every time I  I talk to anyone I have a romance option pop up despite gender it would just seems like the easy way out, cheapen the setting and really just sort of ruin the gender choice completely.  Plus there is no need for it, this isn't a dating sim, it's an adventure story that includes romance if you so choose as an "option".  

As an option I don't need every character available to my whim, I don;t mind a few as needed but really it does nothing to strengthen the story to make this so.  In fact I quite like that Samara can reject Shepard no matter her reason.

i agree some ppl shoud reject you because of there character, i mean samara was been living that way for centruies its doubtfull that she would change that for you

[UsagiVindaloo]

Brahlis wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

You can't understand how completely changing a character's dyanimcs just to shut up a small vocal group isn't a travesty, then I don't know what to tell you.

TALI. GARRUS.

So a female squad-mate can't find develop for your male character? And your male squadmate can't develop feelings for your female character? Even when inter-species relationships have been shown in Mass Effect already outside of your crew?

Once again: LOL @ your argument.

Sexual orientation and feelings for a crew member are not the same thing. If you can't comprehend that, then I don't know what to tell you.

While I agree that, to an extent at least, sexual orientation is something you're born with rather than choose, you forget that sexuality is a HIGHLY fluid concept. Plenty of people may prefer one gender but under certain circumstances be attracted to people in the other. A straight man can develop feelings, or even just attraction, for another man. A lesbian can sometimes fall deeply in love/lust with a man. To be honest, it's not really THAT different from the interspecies romances people are bringing up, in that feelings are the key point, and that it's totally possible to develop feelings outside of your regular "comfort" zone re: sexuality, appearance, personality, etc.

Or if you want to really dumb it down... bisexuality for the win? ;-)

In terms of what you're saying re DLC suddenly changing the characters and it not being worth it etc etc... I can sort of see your point. My feeling, though, is that they dropped the ball to begin with by not just allowing romances to develop with male characters right off the bat. In ME1, my male Shepard had a million tons more chemistry with Garrus than with Ash. If part of the femaleShep/Garrus romance plot has Garrus saying that he loved Shepard's personality more than anything... and male Shepard has the EXACT same personality... then...?

They really should have just dumped the gender flags and allowed you to pursue any of the potential LIs regardless of your character's gender. It would have been the best solution, not damaged the story at all (because the characters aren't "changed", they still are attracted to Shepard) and allowed people wanting straight options or gay options to pursue them without being "forced" into anything.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I will say that what Garrus says can be implied that his admiration and attraction goes beyond who Shepard is physically but more to what she represents to him.  She is still feminine which is something that he wants, he wants her feminine energy despite her being human.  It is a quality about her specifically that makes him want to try this.

But what kind of energies the player gives off is entirely up to them. You can play a rather domineering Female and a rather subdued Male, its up to you. 

Just making the case, a domineering woman is still a woman, I have met some tough chicks in my life that does not make them immediately gay.  Just makes them more masculine, they can still be quite feminine when they need to be.  Given that they can still be gay and me as a male can still be attracted to that, it won't stop me.  Just as another male being gay and being attracted to me is nothing I can control.  

They are attracted to my state being male just as I am attracted to their state of being female in the strong woman example.  I could see this applying to other species as well, I am attracted to Tali because she is feminine or Miranda or even Liara or Aria.  There species plays a roll but ultimately they possess features and an "energy" that I can agree with.

For me personally I won't even feel this way for a man, it's just not in me.  I can still think they are awesome, even attractive as men go, but I don;t want a relationship with them in that way.  I think this can be extrapolated to other species quite easily.  But again others may feel that they can shift their sexuality, if so more power to you, I can't and this is how I will see relationships.

Modifié par Naltair, 07 février 2010 - 08:01 .

[AoiDreamer]

LostScout wrote...

Just because Manshep never actively showed his gay leanings doesn't mean they aren't there. You have the option to tell Jacob "You've kept in shape". Seriously, that is a frequently used gay come on. It would no more be re-writing the character than Tali and Garrus are. Bioware made a political decision. Customers have every right to tell Bioware how they want their game to be. People playing the game have every right to play it the way they want to, and for whatever reason they want to. No-one has the right to be saying that you should just accept it because that's how it is. Bioware doesn't force you to pursue any relationship in the game, I have no problem with not pursuing a relationship I don't want to, it doesn't ruin the experience for me, If the devs force you to pursue a same sex relationship, or sleep with a Turian or Quarian, then I would have a problem with that.

*Agree*

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...
As an option I don't need every character available to my whim, I don;t mind a few as needed but really it does nothing to strengthen the story to make this so.  In fact I quite like that Samara can reject Shepard no matter her reason.

The selected "romance interests" already go to you on a whim. Its trivializing taste while making gender paramount (which it should be in SOME cases), which is exactly why we have these huge threads (non-spoiler area specifically). 

Female Shephards come on to Jacob regardless, Female Shephards always have that "Work some stress off" line with Garrus waiting around, all three female romance options practically force themselves onto a Male Shephard...if you're arguing that we ALREADY have this problem, and you're drawing a line in the sand and saying "NO MORE", well, ok. But don't pretend that it isn't already an issue. 

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 07 février 2010 - 08:01 .

[caynes]

LostScout wrote...

Just because Manshep never actively showed his gay leanings doesn't mean they aren't there. You have the option to tell Jacob "You've kept in shape". Seriously, that is a frequently used gay come on. It would no more be re-writing the character than Tali and Garrus are. Bioware made a political decision. Customers have every right to tell Bioware how they want their game to be. People playing the game have every right to play it the way they want to, and for whatever reason they want to. No-one has the right to be saying that you should just accept it because that's how it is. Bioware doesn't force you to pursue any relationship in the game, I have no problem with not pursuing a relationship I don't want to, it doesn't ruin the experience for me, If the devs force you to pursue a same sex relationship, or sleep with a Turian or Quarian, then I would have a problem with that.

 yes that would be a problem if they forced you to do anything, but why not give that choice of a openly gay shepard,  the fact is i dont understand anyone accually being against this unles there were prejudice or homophobic, because im not gay and i wont have a gay shepard but i beleive in inclussion as the best means of cohesion in society

Modifié par caynes, 07 février 2010 - 08:02 .

[John Forseti]

Internet Kraken wrote...

I don't quite understand why this is such a big deal.

BioWare doesn't want to write a m/m romance. So why is there all this fussing over it? Is it just because there can be f/f romances? I don't get it.

I think it's mainly the low level of honesty, contrasted with the high level of utter bullsh*t in the stated reason for not including it.

BW: "In Dragon Age, it's a first person narrative, it's wide open, you can choose from 6 origin stories, you can choose whether team mates live or die, you can choose to be diplomatic or ruthless, or in between. You can choose your race, your gender, your class etc."

However in Mass Effect, it's a third person narrative, you can choose from 6 origin stories, you can choose whether team mates live or die, you can choose to be diplomatic or ruthless or in between. You can choose your race, your gender, your class etc.therefore it's not wide open."


Ohwell, I'm sure Mass Effect 3 will still be a completely awesome game, I'm just a little dissapointed that some of my fellow fans just can't handle the thought of balls touching and that they represent a larger market share than those of us who can.

Modifié par John Forseti, 07 février 2010 - 08:04 .

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I don;t agree with this, it just makes the characters seem less "real" if every time I  I talk to anyone I have a romance option pop up despite gender it would just seems like the easy way out, cheapen the setting and really just sort of ruin the gender choice completely.  Plus there is no need for it, this isn't a dating sim, it's an adventure story that includes romance if you so choose as an "option".  

As an option I don't need every character available to my whim, I don;t mind a few as needed but really it does nothing to strengthen the story to make this so.  In fact I quite like that Samara can reject Shepard no matter her reason.

What he or she meant was that instead of restricting romance options to only one gender, have every love interest be for both genders. I do like the idea. In that situation, Samara would not be an option period since she was never a love interest to begin with.

I see the point but I don't agree, gender choice should matter, not everyone needs to swing every which way and not everyone should melt for Shepard either. 

[caynes]

maybe there should be an option in the begining of your sexual orientation? anybody agree?

[KealaFerret]

Here's my take on it. I personally like having the options. I played the HECK out of Jade Empire in that regard.



However, there is one technical detail about Mass Effect that may change things, the voice acting. Notice in a lot of the games, the main character did not have a voice. Silent, just replies. Mass Effect changes that in that the main character, who can be male or female, does have a voice (one that adds a lot of excitement to the game).



Because of this, it means that for every option added, there's a lot more dialog that would need to be added. When that's taken into account, I can't say it's illogical to whittle down the choices to a degree, because the game has a lot of dialog as is. And sure, it could be done, but if it came to that or some other part of the game being stronger... I'd choose the game over that any day. There's only so much a game developer can DO and still tell a story. And the unfortunate bottom line is that why does Bioware include/not include something? Because they can.



I don't like it, but I get it. At least Bioware as a publisher considers options, some wouldn't even do that much. And even if they did include it, I could see people complaining about how they did it (that was seen with Dragon Age). You can't make everyone happy.

[caynes]

John Forseti wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

I don't quite understand why this is such a big deal.

BioWare doesn't want to write a m/m romance. So why is there all this fussing over it? Is it just because there can be f/f romances? I don't get it.

I think it's mainly the low level of honesty, contrasted with the high level of utter bullsh*t in the stated reason for not including it.

BW: "In Dragon Age, it's a first person narrative, it's wide open, you can choose from 6 origin stories, you can choose whether team mates live or die, you can choose to be diplomatic or ruthless, or in between. You can choose your race, your gender, your class etc."

However in Mass Effect, it's a third person narrative, you can choose from 6 origin stories, you can choose whether team mates live or die, you can choose to be diplomatic or ruthless or in between. You can choose your race, your gender, your class etc.therefore it's not wide open."


Ohwell, I'm sure Mass Effect 3 will still be a completely awesome game, I'm just a little dissapointed that some of my fellow fans just can't handle the thought of balls touching and that they represent a larger market share than those of us who can.

yup

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...
As an option I don't need every character available to my whim, I don;t mind a few as needed but really it does nothing to strengthen the story to make this so.  In fact I quite like that Samara can reject Shepard no matter her reason.

The selected "romance interests" already go to you on a whim. Its trivializing taste while making gender paramount (which it should be in SOME cases), which is exactly why we have these huge threads (non-spoiler area specifically). 

Female Shephards come on to Jacob regardless, Female Shephards always have that "Work some stress off" line with Garrus waiting around, all three female romance options practically force themselves onto a Male Shephard...if you're arguing that we ALREADY have this problem, and you're drawing a line in the sand and saying "NO MORE", well, ok. But don't pretend that it isn't already an issue. 

Well i think the romances are too easy as is, not enough actual "lead" time, butt hat is another discussion.

Personally I think there should be more than one way to start a romance, hell I think it would be cool that during a mission depending how far along in your conversations you are, there could be a cut scene for a tense sexual tension moment either gender where you or the potential LI save the other's life.   Or something like that with that sexual tension, silent stare going on.

Show some damn sparks instead of just click line my legs are open, or my pants are down.

[caynes]

Naltair wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I don;t agree with this, it just makes the characters seem less "real" if every time I  I talk to anyone I have a romance option pop up despite gender it would just seems like the easy way out, cheapen the setting and really just sort of ruin the gender choice completely.  Plus there is no need for it, this isn't a dating sim, it's an adventure story that includes romance if you so choose as an "option".  

As an option I don't need every character available to my whim, I don;t mind a few as needed but really it does nothing to strengthen the story to make this so.  In fact I quite like that Samara can reject Shepard no matter her reason.

What he or she meant was that instead of restricting romance options to only one gender, have every love interest be for both genders. I do like the idea. In that situation, Samara would not be an option period since she was never a love interest to begin with.

I see the point but I don't agree, gender choice should matter, not everyone needs to swing every which way and not everyone should melt for Shepard either. 

written well, not everyone will like shepard

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...

I see the point but I don't agree, gender choice should matter, not everyone needs to swing every which way and not everyone should melt for Shepard either. 

For me, it comes down to the that BioWare games are about choice and crafting the story in your way. With that, more choices are always better, and removing gender flags for romance would allow more freedom to do that. I saw a thread in the non-spoiler board about having an option to turn gay romances off and off.  Expanding that to the option to turn romances off and on period would be better I think, and give everyone what they want.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
1) Bioware should have just gone the route of having love interests PERIOD and allowed the same interactions with them regardless of your gender. Bam, done. Then whoever is interested in whichever character can romance that character however they want. Male Shepard and Garrus? Sure. FemShep and Miranda? Why not? Just keep the scripts the same (or somewhat similar) and we're golden.

I don;t agree with this, it just makes the characters seem less "real" if every time I  I talk to anyone I have a romance option pop up despite gender it would just seems like the easy way out, cheapen the setting and really just sort of ruin the gender choice completely.  Plus there is no need for it, this isn't a dating sim, it's an adventure story that includes romance if you so choose as an "option".  

As an option I don't need every character available to my whim, I don;t mind a few as needed but really it does nothing to strengthen the story to make this so.  In fact I quite like that Samara can reject Shepard no matter her reason.

I see your point. Then that, I think, just becomes an issue of writing and, possibly, making your Shepard a bit more proactive in pursuing someone. I admittedly haven't gotten very far in ME2, but I remember that in ME1 a lot of the relationship was more, "LI says something that indicates his/her attraction to you, you can respond favorably or negatively." I can see that getting really annoying if the entire crew was like that all the time, especially if they start falling for you just by you being a Paragon. 

What might work better is to have all the basic Paragon conversations be somewhat neutral, with only a hint of affection and something more (e.g. Garrus or Tali or whoever saying stuff like, "Thank you, Shepard. You've been one of the closest friends in my life," or "You're very important to me," or whatever). Then it's up to Shepard to actually *woo* whoever he/she wants. This makes the whole thing a bit more proactive as opposed to sort of stumbling into relationships like he/she does at present. As for the fact that it becomes a bit date-simmish at that point... well, that just adds another game within a game. :-)

[Naltair]

Maybe they just need a bigger dialog wheel for more choices. Like 5 choices per side for added granularity.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I will say that what Garrus says can be implied that his admiration and attraction goes beyond who Shepard is physically but more to what she represents to him.  She is still feminine which is something that he wants, he wants her feminine energy despite her being human.  It is a quality about her specifically that makes him want to try this.

But what kind of energies the player gives off is entirely up to them. You can play a rather domineering Female and a rather subdued Male, its up to you. 

Just making the case, a domineering woman is still a woman, I have met some tough chicks in my life that does not make them immediately gay.  Just makes them more masculine, they can still be quite feminine when they need to be.  Given that they can still be gay and me as a male can still be attracted to that, it won't stop me.  Just as another male being gay and being attracted to me is nothing I can control.  

They are attracted to my state being male just as I am attracted to their state of being female in the strong woman example.  I could see this applying to other species as well, I am attracted to Tali because she is feminine or Miranda or even Liara or Aria.  There species plays a roll but ultimately they possess features and an "energy" that I can agree with.
.

This is fine in general, but we were talking about Garrus (/Tali) specifically. He isn't attracted to humans, while you are attracted to human females. In his/her case, its solely that emotional draw, as its quite clear that in general they are not attracted to anything a normal human male or female "exudes" in terms of energy. 

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I see the point but I don't agree, gender choice should matter, not everyone needs to swing every which way and not everyone should melt for Shepard either. 

For me, it comes down to the that BioWare games are about choice and crafting the story in your way. With that, more choices are always better, and removing gender flags for romance would allow more freedom to do that. I saw a thread in the non-spoiler board about having an option to turn gay romances off and off.  Expanding that to the option to turn romances off and on period would be better I think, and give everyone what they want.

I really don't like that, it's segregation at it's finest.  If it's in the game put it in the damn game and leave it be.  If someone at their home gets pissed because Joy came onto them, then deal with it.  Making it a toggle cheapens homosexuals everywhere.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I don;t agree with this, it just makes the characters seem less "real" if every time I  I talk to anyone I have a romance option pop up despite gender it would just seems like the easy way out, cheapen the setting and really just sort of ruin the gender choice completely.  Plus there is no need for it, this isn't a dating sim, it's an adventure story that includes romance if you so choose as an "option".  

As an option I don't need every character available to my whim, I don;t mind a few as needed but really it does nothing to strengthen the story to make this so.  In fact I quite like that Samara can reject Shepard no matter her reason.

What he or she meant was that instead of restricting romance options to only one gender, have every love interest be for both genders. I do like the idea. In that situation, Samara would not be an option period since she was never a love interest to begin with.

I see the point but I don't agree, gender choice should matter, not everyone needs to swing every which way and not everyone should melt for Shepard either. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on not having people swing every which way... I personally think that that's the best possible option and really easy to justify ("It's the future! We don't think of someone solely as their gender! Bisexuality for the win!")

Having the idea of not everyone melting for Shepard... I would back that up, but I think that needs to be based on personality, not on gender. For example, if your Shepard, I dunno, is a total Renegade and pops people in the head, that might make Jack go, "That's hot," regardless of your gender, but it might make Tali very cold to you regardless of whatever you have dangling between your legs.

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...

I really don't like that, it's segregation at it's finest.  If it's in the game put it in the damn game and leave it be.  If someone at their home gets pissed because Joy came onto them, then deal with it.  Making it a toggle cheapens homosexuals everywhere.

I meant for romances period, even straight ones. And I do agree with you, but looking at how paranoid people get about this kind of thing, it may be a good option. But it's just an option.