968 réponses à ce sujet

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
This is fine in general, but we were talking about Garrus (/Tali) specifically. He isn't attracted to humans, while you are attracted to human females. In his/her case, its solely that emotional draw, as its quite clear that in general they are not attracted to anything a normal human male or female "exudes" in terms of energy. 

But in Mass Effect it seems to be the case that gender plays a role, in the current game as written he does not see this same thing in male Shepard, who is admittedly about the same person as female Shepard just a different gender and face.  But for whatever reason he feels more comfortable making the exception for her and not him, it must be gender and for him it seems the more natural fit.

Currently.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

Maybe they just need a bigger dialog wheel for more choices. Like 5 choices per side for added granularity.

Here's a thought... you know the good old "Investigate" tag that every character has that opens a whole bunch of new dialog options for research? Have a "Romance" tag that opens up some possible romance dialog. The plus side is that it would allow people to proactively pursue romance and RP their Shepard that way (i.e. "Yes, my Shepard is attempting to sleep with his entire crew and is going out of his way to do so,") and make it a lot easier to pinpoint/avoid certain romance options. The only downside (and it's a doozy) is that romances would probably develop less organically; rather than a character gradually falling for you and admitting it, they'd always be just generally friendly until you hit the Romance option.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
We'll have to agree to disagree on not having people swing every which way... I personally think that that's the best possible option and really easy to justify ("It's the future! We don't think of someone solely as their gender! Bisexuality for the win!")

Having the idea of not everyone melting for Shepard... I would back that up, but I think that needs to be based on personality, not on gender. For example, if your Shepard, I dunno, is a total Renegade and pops people in the head, that might make Jack go, "That's hot," regardless of your gender, but it might make Tali very cold to you regardless of whatever you have dangling between your legs.

I seriously doubt that mankind will be that forward thinking and I don't think bisexuality is anything better than heterosexuality it does not make humanity better but anyway that is social commentary.  I think it may be more acceptable at that time, but we really don't know.

Only thing we do know is that asari relationships are acceptable despite gender.  It still seems like the  majority of humanity is rather prejudiced against aliens or at least not as open though it seems to be changing in ME2.

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Maybe they just need a bigger dialog wheel for more choices. Like 5 choices per side for added granularity.

Here's a thought... you know the good old "Investigate" tag that every character has that opens a whole bunch of new dialog options for research? Have a "Romance" tag that opens up some possible romance dialog. The plus side is that it would allow people to proactively pursue romance and RP their Shepard that way (i.e. "Yes, my Shepard is attempting to sleep with his entire crew and is going out of his way to do so,") and make it a lot easier to pinpoint/avoid certain romance options. The only downside (and it's a doozy) is that romances would probably develop less organically; rather than a character gradually falling for you and admitting it, they'd always be just generally friendly until you hit the Romance option.

I would call it an Interest option and then you can show romantic interest or just more friendly interest.  There needs to be better romantic and friendship paths for all characters.

I still think they should have some characters be more forward, to keep you on your toes though.

[SolidRevolver]

Archereon wrote...

EA owns bioware now, that means no same sex relations anymore. They have to appeal to the largest possible audience, as its primary market is America, a nation where a large enough number of voters oppose gay marriage to keep it from happening, they have to appeal to their target audience.

As already stated by someone in the thread, Asari aren't strictly female so you could say there are no same-sex relations in ME at all.
BUT!  If you still want to consider Asari/Femshep romance as a lesbian relationship... Liara was sucking my FemShepards face off within seconds of meeting in ME2.  And if there wasn't 3 other people in the room, I am sure Liaras desk would have had a good old stress test.  EA aren't that prudish, take a look at Dante's Inferno, bewbs everywhere and your killing unbaptised babies and prostitues...

[Khavos]

Brahlis wrote...

Would you stop with the lesbian line? Asari are asexual. Just because they LOOK female does not mean they are not. And in all liklihood the femshep with Liara option was added BECAUSE there would have been no secondary femshep romance otherwise. And then we would hear the whiners come out about how maleshep has two options while femshep has one.

Seriously, stop with the Asari garbage already.

And @ person that said "they're not entitled to my money". If you're playing the game for the god damn romance then that's ****ing pathetic and I'm glad you're not buying the game.

Both the ME1 codex and the ME2 codex state clearly that the asari are an all-female race. 

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
We'll have to agree to disagree on not having people swing every which way... I personally think that that's the best possible option and really easy to justify ("It's the future! We don't think of someone solely as their gender! Bisexuality for the win!")

Having the idea of not everyone melting for Shepard... I would back that up, but I think that needs to be based on personality, not on gender. For example, if your Shepard, I dunno, is a total Renegade and pops people in the head, that might make Jack go, "That's hot," regardless of your gender, but it might make Tali very cold to you regardless of whatever you have dangling between your legs.

I seriously doubt that mankind will be that forward thinking and I don't think bisexuality is anything better than heterosexuality it does not make humanity better but anyway that is social commentary.  I think it may be more acceptable at that time, but we really don't know.

Only thing we do know is that asari relationships are acceptable despite gender.  It still seems like the  majority of humanity is rather prejudiced against aliens or at least not as open though it seems to be changing in ME2.

Well, I can hope we evolve to that point... I sort of get what you mean about bisexuality not being better than heterosexuality, but I much prefer a model where we love a person for who they are, not what bits they have between their legs. Not sure if that's defined as bisexuality, pansexuality, omnisexuality, or what. 

Part of what I'd like to know in Mass Effect is whether humanity has evolved to that point of openness. We definitely see them being bigoted against aliens, but I wonder if a lot of the usual bigotry we suffer from today has lessened despite or BECAUSE of that ("Grr, we need to hate people different from us! Hey, look, a race of lizard people. They're much more satisfying to hate than gay people/black people/etc etc!") ME is interesting in that it very carefully steps around any social commentary on humanity outside of the whole human vs. alien thing; we have no idea where we stand on other social issues.

[caynes]

Khavos wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

Would you stop with the lesbian line? Asari are asexual. Just because they LOOK female does not mean they are not. And in all liklihood the femshep with Liara option was added BECAUSE there would have been no secondary femshep romance otherwise. And then we would hear the whiners come out about how maleshep has two options while femshep has one.

Seriously, stop with the Asari garbage already.

And @ person that said "they're not entitled to my money". If you're playing the game for the god damn romance then that's ****ing pathetic and I'm glad you're not buying the game.

Both the ME1 codex and the ME2 codex state clearly that the asari are an all-female race. 

dry this kills the asari argument lmao

[caynes]

LostScout wrote...

caynes wrote...

maybe there should be an option in the begining of your sexual orientation? anybody agree?

I agree completely.  During the shuttle ride when Miranda is asking questions, she could have said "Shepard, there were rumors amongst your old crew that you are a bisexual female (fill in the orientation of your choice here) is that true?  That response could be used just like the gender flag for conversations throughout the game.

yesh that would be a great idea, i accually e-mail EA about it lmao

[DaeJi]

I like the idea of labeling romance dialog as such. It allows for people to role play better without having to worry about leading characters on.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Maybe they just need a bigger dialog wheel for more choices. Like 5 choices per side for added granularity.

Here's a thought... you know the good old "Investigate" tag that every character has that opens a whole bunch of new dialog options for research? Have a "Romance" tag that opens up some possible romance dialog. The plus side is that it would allow people to proactively pursue romance and RP their Shepard that way (i.e. "Yes, my Shepard is attempting to sleep with his entire crew and is going out of his way to do so,") and make it a lot easier to pinpoint/avoid certain romance options. The only downside (and it's a doozy) is that romances would probably develop less organically; rather than a character gradually falling for you and admitting it, they'd always be just generally friendly until you hit the Romance option.

I would call it an Interest option and then you can show romantic interest or just more friendly interest.  There needs to be better romantic and friendship paths for all characters.

I still think they should have some characters be more forward, to keep you on your toes though.

I like this idea! And agreed that it makes sense for some characters to be very forward, so that would be cool. Also agree that more friendly interest as well as romantic interest would be cool. I think an "Interest" thing would definitely be cool, especially if it made people really feel like they were "romancing" or "befriending" the characters. Don't get me wrong, I love the current dialog tree setup, but since I'm going pure Paragon, befriending my crew almost just sort of happens by accident. 

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
This is fine in general, but we were talking about Garrus (/Tali) specifically. He isn't attracted to humans, while you are attracted to human females. In his/her case, its solely that emotional draw, as its quite clear that in general they are not attracted to anything a normal human male or female "exudes" in terms of energy. 

But in Mass Effect it seems to be the case that gender plays a role, in the current game as written he does not see this same thing in male Shepard, who is admittedly about the same person as female Shepard just a different gender and face.  But for whatever reason he feels more comfortable making the exception for her and not him, it must be gender and for him it seems the more natural fit.

Currently.

First..."in Mass Effect". That's being general again. There's that Turian on Ilium, maybe he has a thing for Quarians, Females, or her individually, or maybe a combination of all three. We can't say. With Garrus, we know from his dialog that it isn't Humans, and very likely is Shephard individually. 

I'm also of the opinion that there can be out of character choices made in a game, that there can be mistakes due to out-of-game reasons. This may be pressure from EA, or it may be pressure from the Fans. I think the Tali/Garrus romances are a combination of both, so I have to disagree with this "backwards" reasoning. If we're arguing about whether the initial inclusion of a Garrus romance for females makes sense, and whether an exclusion of a Garrus romance for males makes sense, using the suspect evidence as proof just doesn't fly for me. It seems to me you're using the ME2 experiences to prove against one (Male romances), while ignoring that the ME1 experiences would argue against the other (Female romances) to the same extent. 

Maybe you believe BioWare doesn't make mistakes and that their decisions aren't malleable, but then why the change of heart for fans after ME1? 

[Naltair]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
Well, I can hope we evolve to that point... I sort of get what you mean about bisexuality not being better than heterosexuality, but I much prefer a model where we love a person for who they are, not what bits they have between their legs. Not sure if that's defined as bisexuality, pansexuality, omnisexuality, or what. 

Don't take this the wrong way but me personally I will NEVER want to have sex with a man, and I think many people will feel that way even in the future.  But I do think that there probably will be more acceptance for this lifestyle in fact in times and cultures past these types of lifestyles were condoned and/or encouraged so it is not out of line for it to happen again.

UsagiVindaloo wrote...
Part of what I'd like to know in Mass Effect is whether humanity has evolved to that point of openness. We definitely see them being bigoted against aliens, but I wonder if a lot of the usual bigotry we suffer from today has lessened despite or BECAUSE of that ("Grr, we need to hate people different from us! Hey, look, a race of lizard people. They're much more satisfying to hate than gay people/black people/etc etc!") ME is interesting in that it very carefully steps around any social commentary on humanity outside of the whole human vs. alien thing; we have no idea where we stand on other social issues.

I think it's the idea that mankind as a whole no matter how different is now on a far larger stage and I am sure there is still internal discrimination, but on the galactic stage we need to work together and find our place among creatures that are wholly different from us.  Be that by being antagonistic or by being diplomatic, well that is what we as Shepard are defining.

[CerealWar]

brain_damage wrote...

MacedonianWolf wrote...

People keep forgetting that Asari ARE NOT female, the way that they look and sound just make us percieve them as one.

Well they look female. And have female voices. And their life stages are Maiden, Matron and Matriarch. Nope, not female at all.

The asari can procreate with anyone. Therefore, no one can complain about a same-sex relationship with an asari being sinful. At least I think that's how it goes.

[AdamNW]

the_devils_aid wrote...

AdamNW wrote...

Putting aside the fact that Liara doesn't count as a F/F romance, it does seem kinda weird that the devs chose to never have a M/M romance, considering it's an open ended story.

I understand what they mean by Third Person Story compared to First Person Story, but I don't see why gay romances would be affected by it.

because shepard isnt gay?

I guess a ruthless Shepard isn't very Paragon is he?

[Akrim_Drak]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Maybe they just need a bigger dialog wheel for more choices. Like 5 choices per side for added granularity.

Here's a thought... you know the good old "Investigate" tag that every character has that opens a whole bunch of new dialog options for research? Have a "Romance" tag that opens up some possible romance dialog. The plus side is that it would allow people to proactively pursue romance and RP their Shepard that way (i.e. "Yes, my Shepard is attempting to sleep with his entire crew and is going out of his way to do so,") and make it a lot easier to pinpoint/avoid certain romance options. The only downside (and it's a doozy) is that romances would probably develop less organically; rather than a character gradually falling for you and admitting it, they'd always be just generally friendly until you hit the Romance option.

I would call it an Interest option and then you can show romantic interest or just more friendly interest.  There needs to be better romantic and friendship paths for all characters.

I still think they should have some characters be more forward, to keep you on your toes though.

I like this idea! And agreed that it makes sense for some characters to be very forward, so that would be cool. Also agree that more friendly interest as well as romantic interest would be cool. I think an "Interest" thing would definitely be cool, especially if it made people really feel like they were "romancing" or "befriending" the characters. Don't get me wrong, I love the current dialog tree setup, but since I'm going pure Paragon, befriending my crew almost just sort of happens by accident. 

This is a really good option that I support whether they decide to include same-sex stuff or not so I can least not lead all the ladies on...

I'd also like to add for those curious as to how male homosexuality works in the Mass Effect universe, the second book "Ascension" included a male character(not the lead but pretty close) who was into men. They never used the word gay so I'm certain in the future we're over our stupid stereotypes. He was an ex-marine and a pretty powerful biotic and his sexuality was a nonissue. He was what he was, nothing changed about him.

I'd also like to add that while I have a certain thing for Kaidan, if that would bother people making him suddenly bisexual I'd be completely for a new squad mate, but that still feels like another fanservice to me. Something is better than nothing though.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
First..."in Mass Effect". That's being general again. There's that Turian on Ilium, maybe he has a thing for Quarians, Females, or her individually, or maybe a combination of all three. We can't say. With Garrus, we know from his dialog that it isn't Humans, and very likely is Shephard individually. 

I'm also of the opinion that there can be out of character choices made in a game, that there can be mistakes due to out-of-game reasons. This may be pressure from EA, or it may be pressure from the Fans. I think the Tali/Garrus romances are a combination of both, so I have to disagree with this "backwards" reasoning. If we're arguing about whether the initial inclusion of a Garrus romance for females makes sense, and whether an exclusion of a Garrus romance for males makes sense, using the suspect evidence as proof just doesn't fly for me. It seems to me you're using the ME2 experiences to prove against one (Male romances), while ignoring that the ME1 experiences would argue against the other (Female romances) to the same extent. 

Maybe you believe BioWare doesn't make mistakes and that their decisions aren't malleable, but then why the change of heart for fans after ME1? 

Interesting thought I am not trying to prove anything actually I am using admittedly circumstantial evidence to support an easy idea that Garrus is straight.  It would be the same for anyone in my life, I don;t need to ask everyone I meet are you gay or straight or bi.  I make observations we all do, we may all come to different conclusions but we base our conclusions hopefully on thinking critically and applying that evidence.

As for the Turian male on Illium, I concluded that he is probably a heterosexual male of his species who is attracted to this particular quarian who appears to be a good friend of his.  She is quite relaxed and able to even talk about suit stimulators with him, which gives him pause.  I can also glean from that conversation she feels comfortable talking about another cross species relationship with a male human and explaining the downsides of the relationship with him.  Again this leads me to think she is probably also into men of other species at least human and she feels comfortable with the turian.

His awkward advances lead me to think he is attracted to her but she rebuffs him probably because he is a good friend and she is not seeing that he is actually interested in her, it's a situation that we can identify with since it is so common in our daily lives and media.  From this I make the "logical" jump that they are both probably into at least heterosexual relationship and my current definition of them both is hetero inclined.

But that is how I see it, maybe you aw it different but that is all the evidence I have.  That is often all the evidence we get with others and if I am wrong it isn't for lack of trying.  But usually 8 times of out of 10 things are just that obvious when it comes to orientation and relationships.

I believe BioWare makes many mistakes but that has nothing to do with how relationships can be perceived.

[Naltair]

Shavon wrote...

No, Shep should be able to fall in love whoever s/he wants, regardless of gender.

That does not mean they should automatically feel the same way about you.

[Lord Atlia]

Shavon wrote...

No, Shep should be able to fall in love whoever s/he wants, regardless of gender.

This is possible but that doesn't mean they will fall in love with Shepard.  Characters should have a sexual preference whether it makes them hetero, bi, or homosexual as it adds depth and realism.  In an RPG your character helps shape the world just like in reality but also like in reality the world is not shaped around you and your preferences.  An example is Tali (ugh didn't want to bring her back into this) around Male Shepard she displays obvious horny and lustful body language that she does not display around Female Shepard (see Kelly Chambers for citation) which points towards her being straight.  Zevran on the otherhand is openingly bi.  Both these things add layers to the characters.  If they simply said the same thing without taking gender into account it would come off as false. 

Edit: N. beat me to it.

Modifié par Lord Atlia, 07 février 2010 - 08:41 .

[Benethyarr]

Ray's answer is both evasive and deliberately misleading. He completely fails to actually address the question in any meaningful way, and what he does say is largely untrue. Really, is this the best Bioware can come up with in terms of PR and communication with fans?

Next time just answer the question please, and be honest. If it's corporate/marketing pressure then say so. If you think you'll sell more without the option then say so. But no more of this BS.

I'd also like to know why the option for a proper F/F relationship has been removed from the series in ME2 - are they saying they disagree with the choices I made in ME and I'm no longer going to be allowed to play Shepard that way? Again, why not? I find it hard to believe that including F/F content is bad for sales...

Modifié par Benethyarr, 07 février 2010 - 08:48 .

[Brahlis]

Naltair wrote...
That does not mean they should automatically feel the same way about you.

Thank you.

Modifié par Brahlis, 07 février 2010 - 08:47 .

[Khavos]

Benethyarr wrote...

I'd also like to know why the option for a proper F/F relationship has been removed from the series in ME2 - are they saying they disagree with the choices I made in ME and I'm no longer going to be allowed to play Shepard that way? Again, why not? I find it hard to believe that including F/F content is bad for sales...

You didn't have a F/F relationship in ME1.  Bioware has stated there were no F/F relationships in ME1.  The fact that both ME1 and ME2 editions of the codex state the asari are an all-female race was clearly an oversight, or perhaps the result of a homosexual infiltration team. 

This isn't rocket science, guys.  They're chasing a demographic with more than its fair share of idiots.  It wouldn't surprise me at this point if dialogue wheels were one of the things to get "streamlined" in ME3 to appeal to the Halo crowd. 

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...
That does not mean they should automatically feel the same way about you.

Some of them don't, like Samara. However, in the interest of giving players as many choices as possible when it comes to designing their Shepard, perhaps all official love interests should be open to both genders.