968 réponses à ce sujet

[DeathCultArm]

You can't really compare adding the option of playing a female to them not adding a *** romance.

[UsagiVindaloo]

DeathCultArm wrote...

BrianWilly wrote...

I disagree about it being a minor part of the game. They obviously thought that the romance subplots from ME1 were a well-received enough design element of the first game to include six new different romances for the second, including several interspecies options. It is a minor part of the game in that it doesn't really take up any time, yes, but as part of the dramatic impetus and narrative? I'd argue it's fairly significant.

Yet they included six LI's and people are still complaining. It doesn't matter waht they do people will complain. If you add same sex romances the same amount of people will complain, than embrace it. So why go through all the trouble?

Except that absolutely no one would complain if there were at least same sex OPTIONS. 

Purely straight players (ie those that don't want anything gay) could just not woo the gay characters.
Gay players or people wanting a gay/bisexual Shepard can get their freak on with no problem.

Seriously, who would complain? The only people I can think of are conservatives and Fox News etc, and they're not even the target market.


As for the argument about, "Well, this is about straight male gamers," then that just makes it all the MORE important to have those options, because why should these "straight male gamers" be allowed to continue in prejudice? Why not confront the issue, or at least have it there? I guess I just don't have huge amounts of time for the, "Oh, that's the way the world/market is," sort of argument, because if there's a social problem (e.g. straight gamers going EW GAY), we should be moving to change that (by showing them that gay is not "ew")

[BrianWilly]

DeathCultArm wrote...

Yet they included six LI's and people are still complaining. It doesn't matter waht they do people will complain. If you add same sex romances the same amount of people will complain, than embrace it. So why go through all the trouble?

People will always complain about something, but what they complain about -- and the legitimacy of those complaints -- is what the devs should be listening to.  It's not an either-or situation.  People complained about the Mako, and those were very legitimate complaints; should Bioware have told them all to **** off, just because different people are still going to complain about other things even if Bioware fixed the Mako?  Of course not.

[Kolaris8472]

DeathCultArm wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

There are more thread here complaining about romances, than about the game..It's insane. They do make dating sims, y'know...

They do indeed. But they don't make any dating sims with Liara, Kaiden, Tali, etc. Part of why we like the romances in ME is because we like the *characters*, and how they interact with each other, and how that interaction can evolve into something more romantic.

I understand, that and it makes perfect sense. But why are there constantly topics about the same issue? It's a minor part of the game, and it seems people are really reluctant to accept that they won't be cater for. Sooner of later people should just be grateful of the choices they have.

I get making your voices heard but this is getting ridicilous. The Liara, Ash, Tali, topic don't really go overboard a smuch as the same sex topics to. It always the same thing, and there are always three and four topics full of blind topics, the usually turns in to a debate of one sexual preferences...Really annoying.

Its all relative. I could say there simply aren't enough topics discussing the gameplay, or the planet exploration. We should make more of them. But there are still things to discuss on this issue. 

[UsagiVindaloo]

BrianWilly wrote...

If the demographic is that important, then why is there a choice to create a female Shepard, along with all her romance options, at all? 'Cause I can pretty much assure you right now that the female fanbase is but a fraction of the male fanbase.

Not necessarily true. There are PLENTY of women out there who love Mass Effect. I am one of them. 

[BrianWilly]

DeathCultArm wrote...

You can't really compare adding the option of playing a female to them not adding a *** romance.

As far as the "demographic" argument goes, why not?  I can't imagine the size of straight female players of ME is really all that much more encompassing than the number of GLBT players of ME.  Either way, both are fractional fractions compared to the straight male fanbase.

I'm pretty sure the "demographic" wasn't really that big a deal when deciding to implement same-sex options in Jade Empire or Dragon Age.  Genre, perhaps, but not demographic.

[Vaenier]

"I'm Commander Shepard and I support same sex romance."

[DeathCultArm]

If you think striaght gamers wouldn't complain about *** romances you're being naive. Think about how straight gamers would think of Thane, or Garrus if they were bi.



And i'm not saying BW has to cater to male gamers b/c they're the demogrpahic, i'm just saying people who want same sex romances can't really get upset if they don't cater to them.



For example I can't complain thar lifetime doesn't air American Psyho or Pulp Fiction can I? I'm not their target audience, but at they same time the channel wouldn't shun me. It's a weird analogy but you get the gist.

[Khavos]

brain_damage wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Again, Bioware has specifically stated that there are no lesbian romances in ME1.

Again, the no female romance thing is nonsense.

I agree with you.  I'm simply trying to point out that looking at their decision from any standpoint remotely involving credibility is a waste of time.

They want the mouth-breathing Halo crowd to buy their game.  They want the HUR DUR Bible Belt crowd to buy their game.  

There is a better chance that that happens if they don't include M/M romances. 

[Monstruo696]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

They do indeed. But they don't make any dating sims with Liara, Kaiden, Tali, etc. Part of why we like the romances in ME is because we like the *characters*, and how they interact with each other, and how that interaction can evolve into something more romantic.

You are a very, VERY, sad individual.

Khavos wrote...

There is a better chance that that happens if they don't include M/M romances.  

Right, just like how Dragon Age didn't sell.

OH WAIT, LOL!

Modifié par Monstruo696, 07 février 2010 - 10:22 .

[Lord Atlia]

Romance in general has always played a large part in media, games, film, books, art, and so forth. The problem is that most of the time it is railroaded, Tidus + Yuna, so that when a company like Bioware starts giving players choices you can never satisfy everyone because there will be outliers that didn't get the option they wanted or you could go the fable route and romance everyone but add 0 substance to the romance. Plus romance choices have always been a staple of Bioware games since like forever, BG2 is the earliest I know of but it is also the earliest Bioware game I've played.

[-Area51-Silent]

I do not understand the fascination and demand of same sex relationships in Mass Effect games. While some of the games they left open (Dragon Age), They decided in Mass Effect to have no same sex relationships, Shepard is the way they designed him, and thats how they decided he or she would be.



Now I know there is the argument "What about Liara in ME1 hu? femshep could have a LI with her" my only response (though even to me it seams lame) is that through the game you learn the Asari are an omnisex race and physical sex isnt necessarily important, and so they have no defined Male or Female status.



While some would argue that "hey why cant they have a male looking race like that" I would say um, maybe? though the whole birthing thing tends to be specifically female.

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

You can't really compare adding the option of playing a female to them not adding a *** romance.

As far as the "demographic" argument goes, why not?  I can't imagine the size of straight female players of ME is really all that much more encompassing than the number of GLBT players of ME.  Either way, both are fractional fractions compared to the straight male fanbase.

I'm pretty sure the "demographic" wasn't really that big a deal when deciding to implement same-sex options in Jade Empire or Dragon Age.  Genre, perhaps, but not demographic.

Women aren't a sexual orientation for one. Seriously I see what you're getting at but you can't comapre a genfer to sexual orientation. You pretty much have to inlcude the option to include females. And i'm sure more striaght gamers would take the option of having a female shepherd over a *** romance, just to go with my demgraphic arguement. ME is much more commerical than JE and DA:O. ME2 is trying to appeal to a more shooter market, and *** romances is not the way to go.

[BrianWilly]

I can't think of even one single instance of "controversy" ever hindering sales of a game.



GTA, Modern Warfare, Bully, the Sims, Mass Effect 1...the list goes on and on. All these games are laughing all the way to the bank, they're certainly not hurting for lack of Bible Belt sales.

[CommanderShawn]

it also would be kinda be stupid to have every character a bisexual not one person striaght

Modifié par CommanderShawn, 07 février 2010 - 10:26 .

[Kolaris8472]

DeathCultArm wrote...
If you think striaght gamers wouldn't complain about *** romances you're being naive. Think about how straight gamers would think of Thane, or Garrus if they were bi.

Well that's disappointing, considering they're aliens. Its strange enough that they're interested in humans in the first place, but no one complains about that. I guess we're more accepting of other species than our own members who have certain sexual preferences.  

I guess this is the crux of the issue. I'm fine with same-sex relationships in the game but at the same time I'm certainly not offended by Miranda or Jacob being straight. Its...unfortunate other people would make such an issue out of it. 

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

Yet they included six LI's and people are still complaining. It doesn't matter waht they do people will complain. If you add same sex romances the same amount of people will complain, than embrace it. So why go through all the trouble?

People will always complain about something, but what they complain about -- and the legitimacy of those complaints -- is what the devs should be listening to.  It's not an either-or situation.  People complained about the Mako, and those were very legitimate complaints; should Bioware have told them all to **** off, just because different people are still going to complain about other things even if Bioware fixed the Mako?  Of course not.

But it appears they did. And like I said adding the same sex romances is just a much of a positive as it is a negative.

[DeathCultArm]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...
If you think striaght gamers wouldn't complain about *** romances you're being naive. Think about how straight gamers would think of Thane, or Garrus if they were bi.

Well that's disappointing, considering they're aliens. Its strange enough that they're interested in humans in the first place, but no one complains about that. I guess we're more accepting of other species than our own members who have certain sexual preferences.  

I guess this is the crux of the issue. I'm fine with same-sex relationships in the game but at the same time I'm certainly not offended by Miranda or Jacob being straight. Its...unfortunate other people would make such an issue out of it. 

That's just the way people are. People forget alot of the target audience is quite ignorant.

[UsagiVindaloo]

DeathCultArm wrote...

If you think striaght gamers wouldn't complain about *** romances you're being naive. Think about how straight gamers would think of Thane, or Garrus if they were bi.

And i'm not saying BW has to cater to male gamers b/c they're the demogrpahic, i'm just saying people who want same sex romances can't really get upset if they don't cater to them.

For example I can't complain thar lifetime doesn't air American Psyho or Pulp Fiction can I? I'm not their target audience, but at they same time the channel wouldn't shun me. It's a weird analogy but you get the gist.

I would hope straight gamers would think the exact same things about Thane and Garrus if they were gay as if they were straight.

While I understand the argument re: demographic, there are a few problems with it...

1) I don't think you guys realize how many girls play this game. 
2) I don't think you guys realize how many gay guys play this game.
3) A lot of girls would support m/m romance, so therefore, by adding m/m romance, BW would actually be catering to two demographics which may be individually smaller than the straight male demographic, but are quite sizeable together.
4) The core argument, though, is that adding a m/m romance should in no way affect the target audience... in other words, *it shouldn't matter* to straight male gamers if there's an m/m romance, and indeed they might enjoy the option to fool around with. It's not like people are incapable of empathizing with someone who's different from them... under that rationale, I wouldn't be able to empathize with my straight male Shepard because I'm a somewhere-between-straight-and-bisexual girl. Or saying that men would never be able to identify with a female hero. So straight male gamers should have no problems with identifying with a gay male Shepard. Assuming they even pursue gay relationships ingame to begin with!

And if someone's about to point out all the "shoulds" and "you're naive" and "Yes, but straight male gamers WOULD have problems identifying," then... don't you think that in itself is worth challenging and changing? 

[Lord Atlia]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

You can't really compare adding the option of playing a female to them not adding a *** romance.

As far as the "demographic" argument goes, why not?  I can't imagine the size of straight female players of ME is really all that much more encompassing than the number of GLBT players of ME.  Either way, both are fractional fractions compared to the straight male fanbase.

I'm pretty sure the "demographic" wasn't really that big a deal when deciding to implement same-sex options in Jade Empire or Dragon Age.  Genre, perhaps, but not demographic.

This is wrong, while male ME players may outnumber female ME players. The base is large enough to create an equal amount of LIs and a character,Thane, catered to them. Female ME players are probably somewhere in 35-45% population. 

[UsagiVindaloo]

Monstruo696 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

They do indeed. But they don't make any dating sims with Liara, Kaiden, Tali, etc. Part of why we like the romances in ME is because we like the *characters*, and how they interact with each other, and how that interaction can evolve into something more romantic.

You are a very, VERY, sad individual.

How so? I'm not sure how engaging with the story is a negative thing, or how enjoying characters and how they interact is a failing. That just means that Bioware has succeeded in creating strong characters and interesting dialog.

[UsagiVindaloo]

CommanderShawn wrote...

it also would be kinda be stupid to have every character a bisexual not one person striaght

Not really... it would just mean that the characters are more interested in your personality than your gender, which is a perfectly appropriate tack to take, and a view I could see the galaxy (and humanity) embracing.

[BrianWilly]

As an aside, I definitely didn't mean to imply that there's only like a dozen women who play ME or something. I'm saying that they are clearly a minority compared to the Almighty Straight Male Fanbase and, as a minority, really not that different in scope alone from the GLBT fanbase.



And yet Bioware clearly listened and catered to that minority, such as in the case of Garrus all of a sudden becoming romanceable.

[DeathCultArm]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

If you think striaght gamers wouldn't complain about *** romances you're being naive. Think about how straight gamers would think of Thane, or Garrus if they were bi.

And i'm not saying BW has to cater to male gamers b/c they're the demogrpahic, i'm just saying people who want same sex romances can't really get upset if they don't cater to them.

For example I can't complain thar lifetime doesn't air American Psyho or Pulp Fiction can I? I'm not their target audience, but at they same time the channel wouldn't shun me. It's a weird analogy but you get the gist.

I would hope straight gamers would think the exact same things about Thane and Garrus if they were gay as if they were straight.

While I understand the argument re: demographic, there are a few problems with it...

1) I don't think you guys realize how many girls play this game. 
2) I don't think you guys realize how many gay guys play this game.
3) A lot of girls would support m/m romance, so therefore, by adding m/m romance, BW would actually be catering to two demographics which may be individually smaller than the straight male demographic, but are quite sizeable together.
4) The core argument, though, is that adding a m/m romance should in no way affect the target audience... in other words, *it shouldn't matter* to straight male gamers if there's an m/m romance, and indeed they might enjoy the option to fool around with. It's not like people are incapable of empathizing with someone who's different from them... under that rationale, I wouldn't be able to empathize with my straight male Shepard because I'm a somewhere-between-straight-and-bisexual girl. Or saying that men would never be able to identify with a female hero. So straight male gamers should have no problems with identifying with a gay male Shepard. Assuming they even pursue gay relationships ingame to begin with!

And if someone's about to point out all the "shoulds" and "you're naive" and "Yes, but straight male gamers WOULD have problems identifying," then... don't you think that in itself is worth challenging and changing? 

It shouldn't matter you're right. But you have to think realistically. EA owns BW now. They're not going to take any chances, and BW doesn't want to get shut down. They already toned downed the love scenes, do you really think they'd add *** romances? You have to think alot of men make these choices. I understand it shouldn't matter, and guys shouldn't care, but we don't live in a perfect world and alot of people do care and I sure BW doesn't want the headache.