968 réponses à ce sujet

[UsagiVindaloo]

Lord Atlia wrote...

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

You can't really compare adding the option of playing a female to them not adding a *** romance.

As far as the "demographic" argument goes, why not?  I can't imagine the size of straight female players of ME is really all that much more encompassing than the number of GLBT players of ME.  Either way, both are fractional fractions compared to the straight male fanbase.

I'm pretty sure the "demographic" wasn't really that big a deal when deciding to implement same-sex options in Jade Empire or Dragon Age.  Genre, perhaps, but not demographic.

This is wrong, while male ME players may outnumber female ME players. The base is large enough to create an equal amount of LIs and a character,Thane, catered to them. Female ME players are probably somewhere in 35-45% population. 

This. I am continually shocked by how many male gamers assume that there aren't plenty of female gamers playing the same games as them. Is it a perfect 50/50 split? No, probably not. But believe me, the female gaming demographic is growing, both in the casual sphere and in the hardcore gamer sphere. Bioware would not be crazy for saying, "Hey, perhaps we should put in things that girls like," because hey, we do like it. We'd probably like it better if there wasn't the whole "OMG girls like this and boys like this," divide in the first place, but hey, one step at a time.

Signed, a proud female gamer. 

[UsagiVindaloo]

DeathCultArm wrote...


It shouldn't matter you're right. But you have to think realistically. EA owns BW now. They're not going to take any chances, and BW doesn't want to get shut down. They already toned downed the love scenes, do you really think they'd add *** romances? You have to think alot of men make these choices. I understand it shouldn't matter, and guys shouldn't care, but we don't live in a perfect world and alot of people do care and I sure BW doesn't want the headache.

You do have a point... while I tend to respond to, "We don't live in a perfect world/that's life/life's not fair," with, "Yeah, but we can at least work to make it *better!*", I can see what you mean about BW and EA perhaps not wanting to make waves. It's regrettable, but realistic, to see that they may not want to make waves or confront the average Straight Male Gamer with their prejudices and risk losing tons and tons of money on this very expensive game.

Having said that, I think that's what's good about forums like this, that we can challenge those assumptions, talk to each other, and *hopefully* broaden our horizons and think about other sides a bit.

How I keep this belief after hanging out in the World of Warcraft forums, I don't know... 

[BrianWilly]

BW is one of the biggest and most successful game companies in the world, they're not going to get shut down for including one or two same-sex romances in the Mass Effect franchise; that's just crazy.

EA took a chance with The Sims, and also with Dragon Age. Why does Mass Effect specifically engender (heh) this kind of caution? I understand what you're saying, but I think you're exaggerating the pull of the Bible Belt demographic (let's say for lack of a better term). Like I said, I can't think of a single instance of any controversial content ever hurting the sames of any game.

Unfortunately, the Mass Effect team appears to agree with your analysis, and I can't say that's a good thing.

And I would have to disagree on the love scenes being toned down. Why, because there's no literal nudity? Not only are there twice as many love scenes, including that silly one with Kelly, but some of them are just downright raunchy. (O_O) The Miranda and Jacob ones..."woof" doesn't even begin to describe.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 07 février 2010 - 10:42 .

[UsagiVindaloo]

BrianWilly wrote...

As an aside, I definitely didn't mean to imply that there's only like a dozen women who play ME or something. I'm saying that they are clearly a minority compared to the Almighty Straight Male Fanbase and, as a minority, really not that different in scope alone from the GLBT fanbase.

And yet Bioware clearly listened and catered to that minority, such as in the case of Garrus all of a sudden becoming romanceable.

LOL, fair enough. I'll admit there are probably more male ME players than female ME players. However, one of my big crusade topics is pointing out that A) there are a lot more women playing games than men may assume, and there would probably be even more women playing games if male gamers and game developers didn't assume that gaming was a male dominated market and keep behaving in offputting or outright sexist manner. Sort of a self fullfilling prophecy, you know? "We think only guys like games, so we're going to make a game with a hot stripper main character to appeal to guys! Huh, look at that, only guys are playing it. See, we told you only guys like games!"

EDITED to add that Bioware seems to have been doing a good job of making games that both men and women enjoy, and acknowledging that yes, women like some of this stuff, so let's have more of that stuff (yay Garrus!). The lack of an m/m relationship seems like a puzzling stumble on their otherwise smooth course, hence why I'm kind of calling them on it, especially since it's something that would be popular with female gamers and gay gamers of both genders.

Modifié par UsagiVindaloo, 07 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[DeathCultArm]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...


It shouldn't matter you're right. But you have to think realistically. EA owns BW now. They're not going to take any chances, and BW doesn't want to get shut down. They already toned downed the love scenes, do you really think they'd add *** romances? You have to think alot of men make these choices. I understand it shouldn't matter, and guys shouldn't care, but we don't live in a perfect world and alot of people do care and I sure BW doesn't want the headache.

You do have a point... while I tend to respond to, "We don't live in a perfect world/that's life/life's not fair," with, "Yeah, but we can at least work to make it *better!*", I can see what you mean about BW and EA perhaps not wanting to make waves. It's regrettable, but realistic, to see that they may not want to make waves or confront the average Straight Male Gamer with their prejudices and risk losing tons and tons of money on this very expensive game.

Having said that, I think that's what's good about forums like this, that we can challenge those assumptions, talk to each other, and *hopefully* broaden our horizons and think about other sides a bit.

How I keep this belief after hanging out in the World of Warcraft forums, I don't know... 

To be quite fair not everyone is as civil as you when it comes to arguing about this topic, as it usually turns inot a flamewar. After going through this debate many times with much less favorable aruments I do appericate you actually listening and not just ranting.

Honestly, I wouldn't care if the romances were added, not in the least. I just find it annoying when people come here and post like BW needs to add it in b/c they day so. I just think after EA put the logo on the game box alot of the possibilites for not just roamanes but other gameplay elements were thrown out of the window in favor of being commerical. The ammo addiction, regaining health, removing the mako. Alot was changed to make the game more acessible, and I think not adding same sex romances was one of them.

[Khavos]

Monstruo696 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

They do indeed. But they don't make any dating sims with Liara, Kaiden, Tali, etc. Part of why we like the romances in ME is because we like the *characters*, and how they interact with each other, and how that interaction can evolve into something more romantic.

You are a very, VERY, sad individual.

Khavos wrote...

There is a better chance that that happens if they don't include M/M romances.  

Right, just like how Dragon Age didn't sell.

OH WAIT, LOL!

It didn't sell as well as ME2, and it certainly wasn't trying to push into casual shooter market share. 

[Monstruo696]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Monstruo696 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

They do indeed. But they don't make any dating sims with Liara, Kaiden, Tali, etc. Part of why we like the romances in ME is because we like the *characters*, and how they interact with each other, and how that interaction can evolve into something more romantic.

You are a very, VERY, sad individual.

How so? I'm not sure how engaging with the story is a negative thing, or how enjoying characters and how they interact is a failing. That just means that Bioware has succeeded in creating strong characters and interesting dialog.

Next thing you know, you're buying a body pillow with *romance option here* printed on it.

There's appreciating and engaging the game and then there's what you do.

Khavos wrote...


It didn't sell as well as ME2, and it certainly wasn't trying to push into casual shooter market share.  

Link to sales figures or it didn't happen.

There's also the fact that it's a sequel and most people knew what to expect as opposed to DA:O which was something new.

Modifié par Monstruo696, 07 février 2010 - 10:56 .

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

BW is one of the biggest and most successful game companies in the world, they're not going to get shut down for including one or two same-sex romances in the Mass Effect franchise; that's just crazy.

EA took a chance with The Sims, and also with Dragon Age. Why does Mass Effect specifically engender (heh) this kind of caution? I understand what you're saying, but I think you're exaggerating the pull of the Bible Belt demographic (let's say for lack of a better term). Like I said, I can't think of a single instance of any controversial content ever hurting the sames of any game.

Unfortunately, the Mass Effect team appears to agree with your analysis, and I can't say that's a good thing.

And I would have to disagree on the love scenes being toned down. Why, because there's no literal nudity? Not only are there twice as many love scenes, including that silly one with Kelly, but some of them are just downright raunchy. (O_O) The Miranda and Jacob ones..."woof" doesn't even begin to describe.

Are you serious you don't think EA wouldn've shut BW down if M2 OR DA:O had flopped? it was a possinility. and yes the scenes weren't down in emtions they still the oviosuly neglect to nuduity, and I think there was a reason.
And yes and publicity is good, but it's obvious EA didn't want any.

Again you can compare The Sims or DA:O to ME2. Yes they both sell well but it obvious EA has moved the franchise in a more commerical direction.

[Lord Zulander]

Look, DAO and ME2 are different stories. It makes no marketing sense to appeal to 3% of the population every single time you do a project. Besides ME2 provide xenophilic relationships, and that's even more out of the mainstream.

[Monstruo696]

DeathCultArm wrote...


Are you serious you don't think EA wouldn've shut BW down if M2 OR DA:O had flopped? it was a possinility. and yes the scenes weren't down in emtions they still the oviosuly neglect to nuduity, and I think there was a reason.
And yes and publicity is good, but it's obvious EA didn't want any.

Again you can compare The Sims or DA:O to ME2. Yes they both sell well but it obvious EA has moved the franchise in a more commerical direction.

It's obvious you have no clue as to what you're talking about.  

I also recommend some typing lessons or perhaps a new keyboard.

[UsagiVindaloo]

DeathCultArm wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...


It shouldn't matter you're right. But you have to think realistically. EA owns BW now. They're not going to take any chances, and BW doesn't want to get shut down. They already toned downed the love scenes, do you really think they'd add *** romances? You have to think alot of men make these choices. I understand it shouldn't matter, and guys shouldn't care, but we don't live in a perfect world and alot of people do care and I sure BW doesn't want the headache.

You do have a point... while I tend to respond to, "We don't live in a perfect world/that's life/life's not fair," with, "Yeah, but we can at least work to make it *better!*", I can see what you mean about BW and EA perhaps not wanting to make waves. It's regrettable, but realistic, to see that they may not want to make waves or confront the average Straight Male Gamer with their prejudices and risk losing tons and tons of money on this very expensive game.

Having said that, I think that's what's good about forums like this, that we can challenge those assumptions, talk to each other, and *hopefully* broaden our horizons and think about other sides a bit.

How I keep this belief after hanging out in the World of Warcraft forums, I don't know... 

To be quite fair not everyone is as civil as you when it comes to arguing about this topic, as it usually turns inot a flamewar. After going through this debate many times with much less favorable aruments I do appericate you actually listening and not just ranting.

Honestly, I wouldn't care if the romances were added, not in the least. I just find it annoying when people come here and post like BW needs to add it in b/c they day so. I just think after EA put the logo on the game box alot of the possibilites for not just roamanes but other gameplay elements were thrown out of the window in favor of being commerical. The ammo addiction, regaining health, removing the mako. Alot was changed to make the game more acessible, and I think not adding same sex romances was one of them.

I can understand a little bit of what you mean here, about how Bioware cannot always just do whatever the fanbase asks. However, I think this is a bit different from, say, everyone begging to be given the bestest ever gun right at the start of the game, or whatever.

For one thing, this is a very touchy social subject with a lot of hurt and pain behind it. A lot of gay gamers would like it if they shared this one thing in common with their main character, because so much of mainstream media doesn't offer that to them (apologies if I'm speaking out of turn!) Bioware is usually very good about giving them some way to express that part of their identity or just feel more comfortable, but this game they dropped the ball, and I support them at least asking a nice big, "Why?"

For another thing, this is a change that would make some people happy and hurt no one. A bit like adding Tali as a love interest, really. Okay, there are plenty of people who loathe Tali, don't want to romance her, etc...so they don't have to. The people that do like her can. Seems fine to me. Similarly, asking for m/m romance does not hurt the people who don't want it. It just means more options.

Lastly, I don't think asking for this would really fundamentally change the game, the characters or the interaction in any way. For example, I once saw the datamined version of a male Shepard/Kaiden romance in ME1. The dialog for the love scene was almost identical to the femShep/Kaiden scene... and you know what? It felt just as natural, romantic and normal. The characters were the same, they hadn't changed, they just... were themselves. Opening up m/m options (or f/f options without asari) wouldn't make a huge difference to the game and wouldn't hurt it... it would just mean that they'd have to get the male Shep actor in for a few more lines. :-)

[DeathCultArm]

Monstruo696 wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...


Are you serious you don't think EA wouldn've shut BW down if M2 OR DA:O had flopped? it was a possinility. and yes the scenes weren't down in emtions they still the oviosuly neglect to nuduity, and I think there was a reason.
And yes and publicity is good, but it's obvious EA didn't want any.

Again you can compare The Sims or DA:O to ME2. Yes they both sell well but it obvious EA has moved the franchise in a more commerical direction.

It's obvious you have no clue as to what you're talking about.  

I also recommend some typing lessons or perhaps a new keyboard.

I didn't ask for recommendation, I recommend you ignore me and stop being a  ****.

[BrianWilly]

DeathCultArm wrote...

Are you serious you don't think EA wouldn've shut BW down if M2 OR DA:O had flopped? it was a possinility. and yes the scenes weren't down in emtions they still the oviosuly neglect to nuduity, and I think there was a reason.
And yes and publicity is good, but it's obvious EA didn't want any.

Mass Effect 2 wouldn't have flopped if it had gay romances.

DAO didn't flop, even though it had gay romances.

No game has ever flopped because it had gay romances.  It's arguable how much effect, if any, it even has on sales.

That's my only point, really.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Monstruo696 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Monstruo696 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

They do indeed. But they don't make any dating sims with Liara, Kaiden, Tali, etc. Part of why we like the romances in ME is because we like the *characters*, and how they interact with each other, and how that interaction can evolve into something more romantic.

You are a very, VERY, sad individual.

How so? I'm not sure how engaging with the story is a negative thing, or how enjoying characters and how they interact is a failing. That just means that Bioware has succeeded in creating strong characters and interesting dialog.

Next thing you know, you're buying a body pillow with *romance option here* printed on it.

There's appreciating and engaging the game and then there's what you do.

I think that's a bit uncalled for. I don't have a particular love interest I squee over madly, if that's what you mean... I just enjoy a good story and a good romance. The point of the original quotation, which I think you may have taken out of context, is that we are not just interested in random character A romancing random character B, we are interested in the characters of Mass Effect and how they evolve. Therefore, reading a romance novel or playing a dating sim wouldn't be the same. It's like telling a fanfiction writer to stop writing fanfic and write an original universe; yes, they can do it, but then it's just generic guy A and generic girl B instead of the characters that really interest them.

For what it's worth, I like the game above and beyond the romance options, but I'm really interested in seeing how they play out. That doesn't make me a sad person, that just makes me different than you... and hey, different is good, right?

[Monstruo696]

DeathCultArm wrote...


I didn't ask for recommendation, I recommend you ignore me and stop being a  ****.

Let's reach a compromise.  You stop posting and I'll stop being an ass in my posts.  Everyone is happy.

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

For what it's worth, I like the game above and beyond the romance options, but I'm really interested in seeing how they play out. That doesn't make me a sad person, that just makes me different than you... and hey, different is good, right?

I also want to see how they play out, and that's ok, but coming to a forums to specifically ask the game developers to turn the characters they've designed to be gay just because you wish it so, is not.

Live with it, maybe they'll add a bi/gay character in ME3, maybe they won't.  It just makes the rest of us PC gamers look bad when a handful of people insist on the stupidest things so fanatically.

Modifié par Monstruo696, 07 février 2010 - 11:02 .

[ReubenLiew]

Looks like all it did was incite everyone...

This thread does not deliver, I demand my money back!

[Red_warning]

As I've always said, the Shepard of today is pretty much defined already and it would be strange suddenly give him same-sex options.

[Kolaris8472]

Monstruo696 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Monstruo696 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

They do indeed. But they don't make any dating sims with Liara, Kaiden, Tali, etc. Part of why we like the romances in ME is because we like the *characters*, and how they interact with each other, and how that interaction can evolve into something more romantic.

You are a very, VERY, sad individual.

How so? I'm not sure how engaging with the story is a negative thing, or how enjoying characters and how they interact is a failing. That just means that Bioware has succeeded in creating strong characters and interesting dialog.

Next thing you know, you're buying a body pillow with *romance option here* printed on it.

There's appreciating and engaging the game and then there's what you do.

Next thing you know, you're buying a gun and shooting someone with it because you did it in a game. Oh what's that, an uncalled for slippery slope?

What she's doing sounds exactly like appreciating the game. 

[DeathCultArm]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I can understand a little bit of what you mean here, about how Bioware cannot always just do whatever the fanbase asks. However, I think this is a bit different from, say, everyone begging to be given the bestest ever gun right at the start of the game, or whatever.

For one thing, this is a very touchy social subject with a lot of hurt and pain behind it. A lot of gay gamers would like it if they shared this one thing in common with their main character, because so much of mainstream media doesn't offer that to them (apologies if I'm speaking out of turn!) Bioware is usually very good about giving them some way to express that part of their identity or just feel more comfortable, but this game they dropped the ball, and I support them at least asking a nice big, "Why?"

For another thing, this is a change that would make some people happy and hurt no one. A bit like adding Tali as a love interest, really. Okay, there are plenty of people who loathe Tali, don't want to romance her, etc...so they don't have to. The people that do like her can. Seems fine to me. Similarly, asking for m/m romance does not hurt the people who don't want it. It just means more options.

Lastly, I don't think asking for this would really fundamentally change the game, the characters or the interaction in any way. For example, I once saw the datamined version of a male Shepard/Kaiden romance in ME1. The dialog for the love scene was almost identical to the femShep/Kaiden scene... and you know what? It felt just as natural, romantic and normal. The characters were the same, they hadn't changed, they just... were themselves. Opening up m/m options (or f/f options without asari) wouldn't make a huge difference to the game and wouldn't hurt it... it would just mean that they'd have to get the male Shep actor in for a few more lines. :-)

Hmmmmm how can I say this w/o felling like a broken record. The game is out, it's done. If thye wanted to add same sex romances, i'm sure ****** would've been. Ok the *** gamers asked for ir, and it didn't happen when exactly do you let it go? Sure DLC is a possility, but tha't just a reach. There no need to add it, most *** gamers will buy the game regardless, BUT there a re male gamers who wouldn't buyt the game if it had m/m romances.

Sure it doesn't make sense but that is true, adding a m/m romances would do more harm than good. Also adding Tali as a LI was a bad comparison. Tali was only a striaght LI, and didn't really effect anything. Addnt Tali is going to turn people away, adding a m/m romance...will, ultimately. It just doesn't seem like a major priority, and if it wasn't added in ME1...there no way it's happening now.

Do I have a real reason to justify them not being in? Not really...but no less than anyone for it.

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

Are you serious you don't think EA wouldn've shut BW down if M2 OR DA:O had flopped? it was a possinility. and yes the scenes weren't down in emtions they still the oviosuly neglect to nuduity, and I think there was a reason.
And yes and publicity is good, but it's obvious EA didn't want any.

Mass Effect 2 wouldn't have flopped if it had gay romances.

DAO didn't flop, even though it had gay romances.

No game has ever flopped because it had gay romances.  It's arguable how much effect, if any, it even has on sales.

That's my only point, really.

No, they didn't but the romances didn't help either. So why add them if there's no benefit?
That's really my point.

[hawat333]

Brahlis wrote...

It's from the IGN artcile posted earlier.
And I hope nobody misinterprets me using "quell". I simply mean that they pretty much answered your all's question.

Seems like it didn't
However it's a pretty basic principle of any narratives (the main differences between first and third person narratives, yeah, it's that varied when it comes to novels too), and is very true.

[BrianWilly]

Red_warning wrote...

As I've always said, the Shepard of today is pretty much defined already and it would be strange suddenly give him same-sex options.

Why do people always forget FemShep and Liara?  There was already a same-sex option in the first game.  It just so happened to be the "safe," nerd-pandering one.

And the fact that Man Shepard wasn't able to romance any men so far doesn't necessarily make him straight; mothing in the games so far forces Shepard to be with a woman, either.  The fact that there's no option to romance Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob, and Thane simply makes them straight, not necessarily Shepard.

[Monstruo696]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Next thing you know, you're buying a gun and shooting someone with it because you did it in a game. Oh what's that, an uncalled for slippery slope?

What she's doing sounds exactly like appreciating the game. 

Oh please, as if buying a pillow you would use in private has the same consequences as buying a gun and shooting someone.

Come back when you're not being a total hypocrite and don't sound like that crazy anti-game lawyer no one remembers anymore.  (Note:  Saying his name brings bad luck)

Modifié par Monstruo696, 07 février 2010 - 11:05 .