968 réponses à ce sujet

[Kolaris8472]

Monstruo696 wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Next thing you know, you're buying a gun and shooting someone with it because you did it in a game. Oh what's that, an uncalled for slippery slope?

What she's doing sounds exactly like appreciating the game. 

Oh please, as if buying a pillow you would use in private has the same consequences as buying a gun and shooting someone.

Come back when you're not being a total hypocrite and don't sound like that crazy anti-game lawyer no one remembers anymore.  (Note:  Saying his name brings bad luck)

The key miscommunication here is apparently your lack of knowledge on what a "slippery slope" is. Neither one of these hypothetical situations is called for, but your remark that finding a character interesting will lead to making out with a painted pillow was just as much a "slippery slope" fallacy as saying playing a violent video game will lead to killing someone. 

Which I'm glad to hear you don't agree with. 

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 07 février 2010 - 11:10 .

[Brahlis]

Shavon wrote...

At this point, it's almost better to have all bisexual romancable characters, rather than certain or none.

Or not.

[Red_warning]

BrianWilly wrote...

Red_warning wrote...

As I've always said, the Shepard of today is pretty much defined already and it would be strange suddenly give him same-sex options.

Why do people always forget FemShep and Liara?  There was already a same-sex option in the first game.  It just so happened to be the "safe," nerd-pandering one.

And the fact that Man Shepard wasn't able to romance any men so far doesn't necessarily make him straight; mothing in the games so far forces Shepard to be with a woman, either.  The fact that there's no option to romance Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob, and Thane simply makes them straight, not necessarily Shepard.

Liara is neither male nor female. And as BioWare already stated, they have their set vision of how Shepard is as a person.

[BrianWilly]

DeathCultArm wrote...

No, they didn't but the romances didn't help either. So why add them if there's no benefit?
That's really my point.

Because at some point, design isn't just about pandering to the largest and therefore lowest common denominators.  At some point it becomes about character impact.  Dramatic impetus.  At the end of the day, game developers are artists.  Of course the sales matters, but the artistic choice matters more.

Because Bioware has proudly touted this game as being about meaningful choices, about "your" Shepard, and has designed this game to be story-driven and character-driven, as dictated by your Shepard.  Because the ME team has bragged about itself being a company that, direct quote "doesn't shy away from controversy."

Because they themselves opened the door with Liara as a f/f option in the first game, which makes the lack of any same-sex option at all in ME2 -- despite the time spent to develop six new romances, several of which are interspecies -- feel deliberately exclusionary and insulting. "Shepard can be anyone!  Except gay, because we're going to specifically single that one out as something not to be implemented here."

Modifié par BrianWilly, 07 février 2010 - 11:13 .

[Monstruo696]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Monstruo696 wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Next thing you know, you're buying a gun and shooting someone with it because you did it in a game. Oh what's that, an uncalled for slippery slope?

What she's doing sounds exactly like appreciating the game. 

Oh please, as if buying a pillow you would use in private has the same consequences as buying a gun and shooting someone.

Come back when you're not being a total hypocrite and don't sound like that crazy anti-game lawyer no one remembers anymore.  (Note:  Saying his name brings bad luck)

The key miscommunication here is apparently your lack of knowledge on what a "slippery slope" is. Neither one of these hypothetical situations is called for, but your remark that finding a character interesting will lead to making out with a painted pillow was just as much a "slippery slope" fallacy as saying playing a violent video game will lead to killing someone. 

Which I'm glad to hear you don't agree with. 

No, you see, I find ALL the characters interesting AS THEY ARE.

I didn't come to the forums to specifically ask the game developers to change them just for me and everyone else who agrees with me.

[BrianWilly]

Red_warning wrote...

Liara is neither male nor female. And as BioWare already stated, they have their set vision of how Shepard is as a person.

BrianWilly wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Again,
Bioware has specifically stated that there are no lesbian romances in ME1.

Bioware can tell me the sky is green over and over again, and it still wouldn't make the sky green.

Is Casey Hudson an accredited anthropologist who is well-versed in cultural, societal, and ethnographic definitions of gender, sex, and female identity?  Because I can tell you right now that every single academic in the universe can and will disagree with his definition of "female." And therefore so do I.

Asari do have a gender.  They are women.  They think of themselves as mothers, as feminine.  You yourself refer to them as "she" and "her" instead of "he" and "it."  When your FemShep has sex with her, she is having sex with another woman.

This gets brought up so many times, as if people are actually convinced it's up for debate.  It's not; from every anthropological, sociological, and ethnographic viewpoint, Asari are women.  The whole monogendered thing is ridiculous; the only people who ever refer to them as such are Asari themselves, because they are not used to how the rest of the world sees it in more than one gender, and that theirs is the feminine.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 07 février 2010 - 11:17 .

[John Forseti]

text

Modifié par John Forseti, 08 février 2010 - 04:34 .

[Red_warning]

BrianWilly wrote...

Red_warning wrote...

Liara is neither male nor female. And as BioWare already stated, they have their set vision of how Shepard is as a person.

BrianWilly wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Again,
Bioware has specifically stated that there are no lesbian romances in ME1.

Bioware can tell me the sky is green over and over again, and it still wouldn't make the sky green.

Is Casey Hudson an accredited anthropologist who is well-versed in cultural, societal, and ethnographic definitions of gender, sex, and female identity?  Because I can tell you right now that every single academic in the universe can and will disagree with his definition of "female." And therefore so do I.

Yes lets ignore the fact that she is a blue ailen from outer space. She got boobs, and is cearly a female.

[Kolaris8472]

Monstruo696 wrote...
No, you see, I find ALL the characters interesting AS THEY ARE.

I didn't come to the forums to specifically ask the game developers to change them just for me and everyone else who agrees with me.

How does that follow from:

Monstruo696 wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

They do indeed. But they don't make any dating sims with Liara, Kaiden, Tali, etc. Part of why we like the romances in ME is because we like the *characters*, and how they interact with each other, and how that interaction can evolve into something more romantic.

You are a very, VERY, sad individual.

It sounds more like you're agreeing with what the poster said then insulting them. 

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

No, they didn't but the romances didn't help either. So why add them if there's no benefit?
That's really my point.

Because at some point, design isn't just about pandering to the largest and therefore lowest common denominators.  At some point it becomes about character impact.  Dramatic impetus.  At the end of the day, game developers are artists.  Of course the sales matters, but the artistic choice matters more.

Because Bioware has proudly touted this game as being about meaningful choices, about "your" Shepard, and has designed this game to be story-driven and character-driven, as dictated by your Shepard.  Because the ME team has bragged about itself being a company that, direct quote "doesn't shy away from controversy."

Because they themselves opened the door with Liara as a f/f option in the first game, which makes the lack of any same-sex option at all in ME2 -- despite the time spent to develop six new romances, several of which are interspecies -- feel deliberately exclusionary and insulting. "Shepard can be anyone!  Except gay, because we're going to specifically single that one out as something not to be implemented here."

Liara wasn't a woman first of. But I won't get into that. If just seems like there a sense than BW has to had it. Are they suppoosed to add every single option to everything? I sure'd alot of people want the option, but it's not a gamebreaker.

I get that it would make alot of gamers more attached to their shepherd but so would long hair or the addition of beards, but everyone can't get what they want. I mean it is possile they just weren't compelled to add them in. Yes they are artist but that doesn't mean they have to paint everything.

It's really not that big of a deal, except to the people who want it or really don't. And if that's the case then BW should have added alot more options...for everything if they want to include everything and going out for them were to be completionist. Like adding the *** romances wouldn've been.

[DeathCultArm]

And all this Lirara being a female talk has to end..When someone attacced to the game says otherwise(CH), than the debate is over.

[The Gay Warden]

Gay relationships = fail.

[BrianWilly]

DeathCultArm wrote...

Liara wasn't a woman first of. But I won't get into that. If just seems like there a sense than BW has to had it. Are they suppoosed to add every single option to everything? I sure'd alot of people want the option, but it's not a gamebreaker.

I get that it would make alot of gamers more attached to their shepherd but so would long hair or the addition of beards, but everyone can't get what they want. I mean it is possile they just weren't compelled to add them in. Yes they are artist but that doesn't mean they have to paint everything.

It's really not that big of a deal, except to the people who want it or really don't. And if that's the case then BW should have added alot more options...for everything if they want to include everything and going out for them were to be completionist. Like adding the *** romances wouldn've been.

I'm just going to go ahead and claim that, as a rule, a person's sexuality is more important to them than long hair or a beard is.

The game itself is designed based off of the conceit of player options and, yes, a significant portion of that is in romantic options.  It's part of the story, part of the design.  And with six different options (nine including the first game), Bioware opened the door themselves.  They opened the door with including Liara in Mass Effect, and also with their other same-sex options in their other games.  Why do you think there are so many people pleading for Bioware to include a gay option in this game, yet there's no one pleading for Bungie to give Master Chief a gay option?

(That's hyperbole; for all I know there are hoards of mofos pleading for Master Chief to be gay. <_<)

Bioware themselves invited this debate, through their own designs.  If they didn't think it was going to be a big deal then, yeah, I would call them pretty naive.

[CommanderShawn]

The Gay Warden wrote...

Gay relationships = fail.

LOL

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

Liara wasn't a woman first of. But I won't get into that. If just seems like there a sense than BW has to had it. Are they suppoosed to add every single option to everything? I sure'd alot of people want the option, but it's not a gamebreaker.

I get that it would make alot of gamers more attached to their shepherd but so would long hair or the addition of beards, but everyone can't get what they want. I mean it is possile they just weren't compelled to add them in. Yes they are artist but that doesn't mean they have to paint everything.

It's really not that big of a deal, except to the people who want it or really don't. And if that's the case then BW should have added alot more options...for everything if they want to include everything and going out for them were to be completionist. Like adding the *** romances wouldn've been.

I'm just going to go ahead and claim that, as a rule, a person's sexuality is more important to them than long hair or a beard is.

The game itself is designed based off of the conceit of player options and, yes, a significant portion of that is in romantic options.  It's part of the story, part of the design.  And with six different options (nine including the first game), Bioware opened the door themselves.  They opened the door with including Liara in Mass Effect, and also with their other same-sex options in their other games.  Why do you think there are so many people pleading for Bioware to include a gay option in this game, yet there's no one pleading for Bungie to give Master Chief a gay option?

(That's hyperbole; for all I know there are hoards of mofos pleading for Master Chief to be gay. <_<)

Bioware themselves invited this debate, through their own designs.  If they didn't think it was going to be a big deal then, yeah, I would call them pretty naive.

See these are weird arguements. Ok a *** gamer want to have a same sex romance...That's no more important thant than adding long hair, at least not to that person.And i'm sure more people want Master Chief to be heterosexual so again, I don't see what you mean. And liara  wasn't a women so there was no same sex romances in ME1. Just b/c alot of people want doesn't mean anything. What if thousands of people claymore for a legion romance?

[Kam Sage]

Seriuosly, we have the multiple number of options to kill, torture and blow up a mas number of people in ME, but dialogue and a quick kiss scene between males is just over the top and morally wrong?
It's not like it would be the first time a male/male relationship happens in a Bioware game (Sky and Zevran) and both relationships didn't seem out of place in either game.
I enjoy the ability to romance a great number of people in Bioware games, no matter which sex they are. It's the characters and their personalities that make me decide whether I'd want a certain relationship to happen.
I'd rather they allow same sex relations fro both genders, or leave same-sex couples out all together. It makes me question Bioware's integrity.

Modifié par Kam Sage, 07 février 2010 - 11:41 .

[BattleVisor]

No...Because anything physical relationship with Garrus will kill the bromance.

BROMANCE >>> BUM ACTION (best euphemism i could find)

My Shepard loves Garrus, but its a bromance ya heard. If people want to interpret as a homesexual relationship, then let them have their cake.

Modifié par BattleVisor, 07 février 2010 - 11:42 .

[BrianWilly]

DeathCultArm wrote...

See these are weird arguements. Ok a *** gamer want to have a same sex romance...That's no more important thant than adding long hair, at least not to that person.And i'm sure more people want Master Chief to be heterosexual so again, I don't see what you mean. And liara  wasn't a women so there was no same sex romances in ME1. Just b/c alot of people want doesn't mean anything. What if thousands of people claymore for a legion romance?

Long hair is more important to a gay gamer in this game than having gay romances?  I don't know what you mean.

EA and Bioware has a history of allowing gay romance, while Bungie doesn't.  That's why people are upset at Bioware for not having a gay romance in this game, whereas they wouldn't be asking Bungie for gay romances.  You're wondering why people think Bioware "has to" have a gay romance in this game, well, this is a major factor.

Liara is definitely a woman.  Please refer to my "Just because a dev says the sky is green doesn't somehow magically change the definition of 'blue' into 'green'" post above.

[John Forseti]

CommanderShawn wrote...

The Gay Warden wrote...

Gay relationships = fail.

LOL

Indeed.

[BattleVisor]

And really come on, asari dont count.



Are there any other male-only species in ME universe....no there isnt!



The best you can hope for is Shepard getting it on with a Hanar.

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

See these are weird arguements. Ok a *** gamer want to have a same sex romance...That's no more important thant than adding long hair, at least not to that person.And i'm sure more people want Master Chief to be heterosexual so again, I don't see what you mean. And liara  wasn't a women so there was no same sex romances in ME1. Just b/c alot of people want doesn't mean anything. What if thousands of people claymore for a legion romance?

Long hair is more important to a gay gamer in this game than having gay romances?  I don't know what you mean.

EA and Bioware has a history of allowing gay romance, while Bungie doesn't.  That's why people are upset at Bioware for not having a gay romance in this game, whereas they wouldn't be asking Bungie for gay romances.  You're wondering why people think Bioware "has to" have a gay romance in this game, well, this is a major factor.

Liara is definitely a woman.  Please refer to my "Just because a dev says the sky is green doesn't somehow magically change the definition of 'blue' into 'green'" post above.

I'm saying if you're a *** gamer than the same sex romances are important to them. But what if you don't care about that, and you wanted a long hair option. Why is the same sex romance more important?

And just BW added *** romances to one game, doesn't mean they need to implement it in every game.

And the devs didn't make the sky, but they did make Liara so...yeah..

[John Forseti]

BattleVisor wrote...

And really come on, asari dont count.

As what? Females? Even though they are described as an all-female race that go through maiden, matron and matriach life stages, have only daughters and refer to each other as shes?

Yes, I see the logic behind your arguments.

[DeathCultArm]

I'm not anti anything, i'm just trying to play devils advocate.