968 réponses à ce sujet

[Khavos]

DeathCultArm wrote...

And all this Lirara being a female talk has to end..When someone attacced to the game says otherwise(CH), than the debate is over.

Will the in-game codex entries from both games work for you?

[Myrmedus]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Do you know the meaning of the word 'bigot'? It's ironic because this exact quoted post is a pristine example of bigotry, so perhaps you should look in the mirror instead of acting the victim.

Or check a dictionary, either one would do fine.

How was what I said bigoted?

The answer to that question is in fact the same question but directed from me: "How was what I said bigoted?"

To explain further:

big⋅ot⋅ed [big-uh-tid]  –adjective-- utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.


You passed out a judgment on me, and other posters, on the basis of very little (zero) evidence that was also completely subjective and purely because we (or I) were offering opinions and arguments that were at odds with your own.

I can't say if I'm not bigoted in every potential facet of the word but when it comes to sexuality I can say with 100% confidence I don't have an ounce of bigoted views in me. That still doesn't stop me from disagreeing with you and disagreeing with a campaign on this front because I would disagree with someone campaigning about romance changes even for same-sex relations in the ME universe - there's no bigotry involved just a resounding feeling of barking up a small tree (tell if you don't understand that saying).

I know the game has romance but it's a bonus, a niggle, and I'm concerned that the more fans hark on about minor things like romance content and changes, the less quality and quantity there will be invested into more important things like the main plot. ME2's structure with the bulk of its plot and development in characters and a significant void where it really counts (the main plot) was a perfect example of this.

You can't get everything so maybe focus on the important things in the game rather than detracting to small issues.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 08 février 2010 - 01:03 .

[Kolaris8472]

Brahlis wrote...

DaeJi wrote...
I have, when I said that this content is best saved as a DLC for any future releases. It allows the players who want it to have it, while not imposing it on those who do not.

So have the same-sex stuff be DLC only that doesn't ship on the vanilla game?

I would support that idea.

Sounds like a good idea to me too.

Only real opposition would be the "time management" argument, but since some of this stuff is in the game to begin with...

[Myrmedus]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Its a curious position. Technically, I suppose he's arguing that being anti-bigot is in fact bigotry. You're being intolerant of bigots.

Cut it out!

No, I'm arguing that labelling someone a bigot on the evidence of 4 posts - that don't even have an ounce of bigotry in them but simply disagree with the individual - is in fact bigotry because it indicates utter intolerence.

It's like throwing your toys at someone because they disagree with you rather than just debating it out, and I find it incredibly curious that many people who think they're being sexually open-minded seem to believe they're immune to bigotry.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 08 février 2010 - 01:05 .

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

As I've said, none of those games were geared toward a commerical audience. And no the "BBD" as you say have no effect over sales, but it appeard they do over EA. Just b/c you people want the same sex romances to be a added, doesn't mean it's at all likely, which everyone seems to be neglecting for various reasons.

Just three or four years ago you might have said it "wasn't likely" to have a game like Dragon Age, with all the romantic choices it entails, for fear of the exact same imaginary backlash that you speak of.  And yet here we are.

Evidently it "wasn't likely" at this point in time for ME2.  But times change.  They're changing right this minute, with every post you make on the subject.  Bioware itself has both paved the way (Mass Effect 1) and backtracked from it (Mass Effect 2).  The only question remains is whether or not it will change enough for the immediate future, for DLC content and for Mass Effect 3.

That's a very overly optimistic outlook. ME2 is more a shooter now, and you don't see shooters with same sex roamanes or any.

[DeathCultArm]

DaeJi wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

For once I want someone of the side of pro-same sex side, to look at things from other's perspective.

I have, when I said that this content is best saved as a DLC for any future releases. It allows the players who want it to have it, while not imposing it on those who do not.

What about people who want actual DLC? That takes time from implementing useful thing for ANYONE despite sexual orientation like weapons, armor, and vechiles. Not all new *** charatcers, or altering old ones.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Myrmedus wrote...
snip

I never called you a bigot. The bigotry aspect of my sentence was separate from the part of the sentence dealing with you.

All I said about you is that you're part of the reason why these threads turn into "arguments".

I then went on to say that there were also bigoted, intolerant people who also come into threads like this and cause controversy. I didn't call you a bigot, and I didn't mean to imply as such either.

As for "not being able to get everything"... so what?

If BioWare didn't want their fanbase discussing what they think about the romance aspect of the game, then there wouldn't be a romance aspect of the game.

Since BioWare continues to put romance in their games, then people are going to discuss and complain about what they like or dislike. Same with any other part of the game.

[Khavos]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

If BioWare didn't want their fanbase discussing what they think about the romance aspect of the game, then there wouldn't be a romance aspect of the game.

Man, just think how awesome that would be.

"Let's do a sci-fi action RPG about an elite military badass saving the galaxy from some McGuffin villains."

"Word.  You want to do it kinda realist, or should we write it like a ****ty WB teen drama series?"

"Let's go with realist."

To think what might have been. 

[Commander B-Shaw]

 I think true same sex relationships will become the norm in games before too long, but it's difficult for a game to take the lead.  If the option was available in ME2, for good or bad, that's all the press would be talking about.  It would draw negativity from the usual idiotic sections of society and completely overshadow what the game is about.  Look how much nonsense was written about ME1 having the all female love story, even though it was a sci-fi relationship with an omni-sexual alien race, shown via a cut scene, and only a tiny part of the story ark.

Mass effect is great Sci-fi, and has already shown it's maturity by dealing with sexual ambiguity.  What it's not is social commentary, and if any game is to take the lead, it should be one based on realism such as GTA.

[DeathCultArm]

Khavos wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

And all this Lirara being a female talk has to end..When someone attacced to the game says otherwise(CH), than the debate is over.

Will the in-game codex entries from both games work for you?

Well if everyone wants to dismiss what Casy Hudson said(a developer), why even believe the codex either if the developers made that as well...

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

The only thing I wouldn't like is if they "retconned" by making Tali a same-sex option or Garrus a same-sex option.

Otherwise, no problem with a homosexual Shepard.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 08 février 2010 - 01:14 .

[Kolaris8472]

DeathCultArm wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

For once I want someone of the side of pro-same sex side, to look at things from other's perspective.

I have, when I said that this content is best saved as a DLC for any future releases. It allows the players who want it to have it, while not imposing it on those who do not.

What about people who want actual DLC? That takes time from implementing useful thing for ANYONE despite sexual orientation like weapons, armor, and vechiles. Not all new *** charatcers, or altering old ones.

And what about people who wouldn't shell out money for in-game items? Especially when I could get overpowered weaponry for free by modding the weapon data. 

I'm not saying you're wrong to want it, but I have a hard time seeing which one should be a priority. 

But thankfully we have EA to tell us straight: the one that makes them more money. 

[Kolaris8472]

Khavos wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

If BioWare didn't want their fanbase discussing what they think about the romance aspect of the game, then there wouldn't be a romance aspect of the game.

Man, just think how awesome that would be.

"Let's do a sci-fi action RPG about an elite military badass saving the galaxy from some McGuffin villains."

"Word.  You want to do it kinda realist, or should we write it like a ****ty WB teen drama series?"

"Let's go with realist."

To think what might have been. 

Again, implying all gay people run around with rainbow flags or have all the masculinity drained out of them is pretty offensive. 

[Brahlis]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The only thing I wouldn't like is if they "retconned" by making Tali a same-sex option or Garrus a same-sex option.

Otherwise, no problem with a homosexual Shepard.

Same.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The only thing I wouldn't like is if they "retconned" by making Tali a same-sex option or Garrus a same-sex option.

Otherwise, no problem with a homosexual Shepard.

So, if a woman goes through her life dating nothing but men, but at some point events occur in her life and she falls in love with her best friend, another woman, the first woman is "retconning" her life?

[Myrmedus]

No, she's just misguided.

NEVER date your best friend, it's just asking for trouble!

xD

But on a serious note I can see why it'd be perceived as retcon, and what you need to do is consider everyone here. You might see it as fine but the vast majority of the audience would think it's a 180.

And again I point to the fact that I reckon the dialogue and development of such same-sex romances, if it went into real depth, would be a grade under the opposite-sex romances probably including stereotypes that would be more likely to ****** you off than be a boon.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 08 février 2010 - 01:20 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The only thing I wouldn't like is if they "retconned" by making Tali a same-sex option or Garrus a same-sex option.

Otherwise, no problem with a homosexual Shepard.

So, if a woman goes through her life dating nothing but men, but at some point events occur in her life and she falls in love with her best friend, another woman, the first woman is "retconning" her life?

No, that woman was in the closet the whole time or was a bisexual who has never experimented with women before, for various reasons.

Tali and Garrus don't show any signs of homosexuality, it seems they're straight. Them turning out to be bisexual would seem like an obvious retcon given their behavior in the past two games. It would be obvious that it was a change in decision by the writers in regards to fan pressure rather than always intended.

[Kolaris8472]

Brahlis wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The only thing I wouldn't like is if they "retconned" by making Tali a same-sex option or Garrus a same-sex option.

Otherwise, no problem with a homosexual Shepard.

Same.

I still don't agree that Tali being open to a female of another species (when she's already open to other species), especially given where the femshep/tali relationship ends up, would be any more out of character than making her romanceable in the first place. 

But I agree that straight "retconning" when there isn't a defensible position for them being bisexual is a bad idea. Jacob, Miranda, probably Garrus...but for Jack, Thane, or Tali it still seems like a possibility to me. 

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

No, that woman was in the closet the whole time or was a bisexual who has never experimented with women before, for various reasons.

Tali and Garrus don't show any signs of homosexuality, it seems they're straight. Them turning out to be bisexual would seem like an obvious retcon given their behavior in the past two games. It would be obvious that it was a change in decision by the writers in regards to fan pressure rather than always intended.

That woman in my example also "showed no signs of homosexuality", and it seemed she was straight.

But your language says it all. You say it would "seem" like a retcon because they had not been with same gender prior, but with the woman in my example you say she was "always bisexual but didn't know it". Maybe Garrus and Tali are bisexual and you and they don't know it.

Garrus and Tali are no different than the woman in my example. you merely perceive it as different.

[Khavos]

DeathCultArm wrote...

Well if everyone wants to dismiss what Casy Hudson said(a developer), why even believe the codex either if the developers made that as well...

Because the codices were written prior to the minor controversy flaring up?  Because one of the doctors came out and gave one of the most bull**** answers ever to the question in a recent IGN interview? 

Several reasons. 

The codices say they're female.  Hudson says there was no female-female sex in ME1.  Why do you believe Hudson over two games developed by Bioware?

[DaeJi]

DeathCultArm wrote...

What about people who want actual DLC? That takes time from implementing useful thing for ANYONE despite sexual orientation like weapons, armor, and vechiles. Not all new *** charatcers, or altering old ones.

You would still get it. Most of the material needed for a same sex romance DLC is already in the game, this DLC could be done in a day.

Anyway, the main point about my suggestion wasn't about a same sex romance DLC for Mass Effect 2 (which I still support 100%), but release day DLCs in future releases.

[DeathCultArm]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

For once I want someone of the side of pro-same sex side, to look at things from other's perspective.

I have, when I said that this content is best saved as a DLC for any future releases. It allows the players who want it to have it, while not imposing it on those who do not.

What about people who want actual DLC? That takes time from implementing useful thing for ANYONE despite sexual orientation like weapons, armor, and vechiles. Not all new *** charatcers, or altering old ones.

And what about people who wouldn't shell out money for in-game items? Especially when I could get overpowered weaponry for free by modding the weapon data. 

I'm not saying you're wrong to want it, but I have a hard time seeing which one should be a priority. 

But thankfully we have EA to tell us straight: the one that makes them more money. 

The only thing is everyone could use the missions, weapons, armor. Not everyone is going to use same sex dlc> Why add DLC that alienate people?

[Myrmedus]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

The only thing I wouldn't like is if they "retconned" by making Tali a same-sex option or Garrus a same-sex option.

Otherwise, no problem with a homosexual Shepard.

So, if a woman goes through her life dating nothing but men, but at some point events occur in her life and she falls in love with her best friend, another woman, the first woman is "retconning" her life?

No, that woman was in the closet the whole time or was a bisexual who has never experimented with women before, for various reasons.

Tali and Garrus don't show any signs of homosexuality, it seems they're straight. Them turning out to be bisexual would seem like an obvious retcon given their behavior in the past two games. It would be obvious that it was a change in decision by the writers in regards to fan pressure rather than always intended.

Ye, exactly.

It's the difference between reality and story-telling - people are always critical towards story-telling with a fine-tooth comb (this thread is a perfect example of that) because it's ultimately a simulation of reality. Therefore even a hint of a retcon would be perceived as such.

A perfect example is the final boss of ME2. People whine about it all the time as if it were a cop out but anything is possible in reality, and if that happened in reality you'd crap your pants. However, because it's story-telling people react differently.

[Kolaris8472]

DeathCultArm wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

For once I want someone of the side of pro-same sex side, to look at things from other's perspective.

I have, when I said that this content is best saved as a DLC for any future releases. It allows the players who want it to have it, while not imposing it on those who do not.

What about people who want actual DLC? That takes time from implementing useful thing for ANYONE despite sexual orientation like weapons, armor, and vechiles. Not all new *** charatcers, or altering old ones.

And what about people who wouldn't shell out money for in-game items? Especially when I could get overpowered weaponry for free by modding the weapon data. 

I'm not saying you're wrong to want it, but I have a hard time seeing which one should be a priority. 

But thankfully we have EA to tell us straight: the one that makes them more money. 

The only thing is everyone could use the missions, weapons, armor. Not everyone is going to use same sex dlc> Why add DLC that alienate people?

Everyone could use it but not everyone would buy it. You can say the same thing about same-sex DLC. Obviously, the proportions would be way off.