968 réponses à ce sujet

[Khavos]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Again, implying all gay people run around with rainbow flags or have all the masculinity drained out of them is pretty offensive. 

Get your head out of your ass.  I'm on your side.

The implication was that the plot convention of having a guy with an extraordinarily important mission take time out to bang his crew is stupid WB teen drama style crap.  I was insulting the romances in general, not the homosexual/heterosexual ones. 

[Myrmedus]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

No, that woman was in the closet the whole time or was a bisexual who has never experimented with women before, for various reasons.

Tali and Garrus don't show any signs of homosexuality, it seems they're straight. Them turning out to be bisexual would seem like an obvious retcon given their behavior in the past two games. It would be obvious that it was a change in decision by the writers in regards to fan pressure rather than always intended.

That woman in my example also "showed no signs of homosexuality", and it seemed she was straight.

But your language says it all. You say it would "seem" like a retcon because they had not been with same gender prior, but with the woman in my example you say she was "always bisexual but didn't know it". Maybe Garrus and Tali are bisexual and you and they don't know it.

Garrus and Tali are no different than the woman in my example. you merely perceive it as different.

Exactly, and that's the point here. Perception vs. Reality.

This is a videogame so everyone playing it, all the millions of gamers, are perceiving every square inch of it. I can say with some confidence that most of the players would view that as a retcon. It might not be right, it may not make sense in reality, but I guarantee it would happen.

An example: I'm an artist by trade and I can tell you there are sometimes examples of things in reality, photographs or particular views of objects hit by light in a way that make them look almost 'wrong'. That is to say if you painted them that way people would look at the painting and think "That's been painted wrongly" - this is a similar example. Even though in reality stranger things have happened, in media it would be perceived as cop out.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 08 février 2010 - 01:25 .

[Brahlis]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
But your language says it all. You say it would "seem" like a retcon because they had not been with same gender prior, but with the woman in my example you say she was "always bisexual but didn't know it". Maybe Garrus and Tali are bisexual and you and they don't know it.

No matter what kind of crap you use to try to rationalize it, it is still retconning.

[Myrmedus]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

For once I want someone of the side of pro-same sex side, to look at things from other's perspective.

I have, when I said that this content is best saved as a DLC for any future releases. It allows the players who want it to have it, while not imposing it on those who do not.

What about people who want actual DLC? That takes time from implementing useful thing for ANYONE despite sexual orientation like weapons, armor, and vechiles. Not all new *** charatcers, or altering old ones.

And what about people who wouldn't shell out money for in-game items? Especially when I could get overpowered weaponry for free by modding the weapon data. 

I'm not saying you're wrong to want it, but I have a hard time seeing which one should be a priority. 

But thankfully we have EA to tell us straight: the one that makes them more money. 

The only thing is everyone could use the missions, weapons, armor. Not everyone is going to use same sex dlc> Why add DLC that alienate people?

Everyone could use it but not everyone would buy it. You can say the same thing about same-sex DLC. Obviously, the proportions would be way off. 

They'd do it for a free DLC. For a purchased DLC I highly doubt it because it wouldn't be a good marketing option because of the reasons you stated (the proportion of sales).

[DeathCultArm]

DaeJi wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

What about people who want actual DLC? That takes time from implementing useful thing for ANYONE despite sexual orientation like weapons, armor, and vechiles. Not all new *** charatcers, or altering old ones.

You would still get it. Most of the material needed for a same sex romance DLC is already in the game, this DLC could be done in a day.

Anyway, the main point about my suggestion wasn't about a same sex romance DLC for Mass Effect 2 (which I still support 100%), but release day DLCs in future releases.

You main point is what exactly? I don't really follow.

[Lord Atlia]

Asari are mono gendered. If a real mono gendered species that has mind sex evolved it would probably look more Thorianish than anything else, in fact it would probably be so alien we would not have the verbs to describe it before seeing it. The fact they look like woman is probably just fan service and the fact that they have developed sociologically as a matriarchy is probably because it was easier to apply characteristics of human societies to the Asari as opposed to designing an actual alien society based on mono gendered mind sex having creatures. The design staff has stated they want us to think of Asari as mono gendered, they just did a sloppy way of getting that point across in game.

[Taritu]

Kronner wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

No one is being homophobic. I don't see how keeping it normal is being homophobic. You all act like you're entitled to a m/m or f/f romance. No, you're not.

The kid who made a comparison between bestiality and consensual gay sex WAS being homophobic and trolling. Or do you disagree?

a) I am not a kid
I do not own a console
c) I just wanted to point out that it is just a game and not every option you can think of can be included. There will ALWAYS be some groups of people that will find something that is not in the game and ask "Why is this missing? There is X option so why not Y?" Hope you understand the sex with a horse was just sarcasm.

You're a homophobic jerk.  Embrace it, live it, don't run away from it like a pathetic coward who won't even admit his prejudices.

[juxtaposedjoker]

I don't see how the first vs third person explanation holds any water after ME1 or ME2 because they proliferate the lesbian double standard. You can make the argument that Liara is not a true female but that doesn't negate human sexuality in terms of attraction. No matter how amazing an asari's personality is could you see a very heterosexual woman being interested when the physical markers of a man are not present?



I've seen this happen in real life and in popular culture where a heterosexual woman may start to question her sexuality due to the amazing personality of a close female friend or the appeal of the lesbian community which can be a sort of estrogen sanctuary. Only to ultimately remain heterosexual due to a complete lack of sexual attraction. I'm reminded of an episode of Sex in the City where in one of the characters is going through what I explained in the above until finally a real lesbian confronts her with the line "if you don't eat p*** you're not a lesbian".



Now what does this have to do with Shepard? Easy, fem Shep is attracted to an alien in ME1 who embodies what is deemed feminine physiology. She is able to be sexually intimate with her as shown in the romance scene. It is NOT just a mind meld. So she has to be attracted to a member of the same sex in order to want to do that. This is reinforced in ME2 when the fem Shep can have a fling with Kelly or an almost romance with Samara or get herself killed trying to have sex with Morinth.



So now lets take what they say about Shepard being a predetermined character. Shepard the person is bisexual. Period. The sex you make your Shepard should not matter by Ray Muzyka's own explanation since the core of the character was created by the designers. The core of a character includes their sexuality! If you weren't supposed to be able to control Shepards sexuality then both the fem shep and male sheps would be completely straight.



The very fact YOU CAN CHOOSE whether or not your fem shep likes women or men makes the fact you can't do it with a male character not a matter of third vs first person narratives but a double standard. If you were not supposed to have the power to choose this you wouldn't be able to despite the sex of your character. The fact that the male shepard is heterosexual and not bisexual like his female counterpart refutes Ray Muzyka's entire explanation over the rigidness of the character due to it's narrative medium.

[DaeJi]

DeathCultArm wrote...

You main point is what exactly? I don't really follow.

That is EA and BioWare want to include same sex romance in future games without turning people off because of them, then they should release that content on a same day DLC separate from the vanilla game disk.

[DeathCultArm]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Everyone could use it but not everyone would buy it. You can say the same thing about same-sex DLC. Obviously, the proportions would be way off. 

But if you add same sex DLC, then why not add more heterosexual romances. You still alieante WAY too much of the demographic by adding the *** romance DLC.

[Kolaris8472]

Khavos wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Again, implying all gay people run around with rainbow flags or have all the masculinity drained out of them is pretty offensive. 

Get your head out of your ass.  I'm on your side.

The implication was that the plot convention of having a guy with an extraordinarily important mission take time out to bang his crew is stupid WB teen drama style crap.  I was insulting the romances in general, not the homosexual/heterosexual ones. 

Was it a sarcasm-detection fail? Oh well, I'm not even going to go back and check. Whatever you say. 

[BrianWilly]

DeathCultArm wrote...

Well if everyone wants to dismiss what Casy Hudson said(a developer), why even believe the codex either if the developers made that as well...

You don't seem to understand.  Or maybe you do, and are just advocating-devilishly/trolling/whatever, but in any case: Casey Hudson's definition of what a female is, along with his definition of what a female/female relationship is, do not fit with real life, academic definitions of those two things.  Which is not a dig on him; he is not an ethnographer and I wouldn't expect him to talk like one.  Nevertheless, from every educated perspective in the world, what he said is untrue and doesn't hold up under any sort of logical scrutiny whatsoever.  Ask any gender-studies student or professor in the world: regardless of whether she is an alien or not, Liara and all Asari are sociologically feminine.  A woman.  Female.  A case could be made for her being biologically-female as well, but I personally don't know as much about that and will let more educated persons speak for that argument.

So when Hudson said that there were no female/female romances in ME1, he might as well have said that there were no guns in ME1 and that Commander Shepard stabs and slashes his way through the game with swords.  It simply isn't true from any perspective.  Just because he thinks he developed a game without guns would not mean that he actually developed a game without guns.  Just because he thinks he developed the Asari as being genderless does not mean that they are actually genderless.

I don't know how to make this any clearer.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 08 février 2010 - 01:31 .

[Brahlis]

juxtaposedjoker wrote...
The very fact YOU CAN CHOOSE whether or not your fem shep likes women or men makes the fact you can't do it with a male character not a matter of third vs first person narratives but a double standard. If you were not supposed to have the power to choose this you wouldn't be able to despite the sex of your character. The fact that the male shepard is heterosexual and not bisexual like his female counterpart refutes Ray Muzyka's entire explanation over the rigidness of the character due to it's narrative medium.

I don't think most people care if the choice of Shepard's orientation is left to the player. The retconning of squadmates is what grinds people's gears.

[DaeJi]

DeathCultArm wrote...

But if you add same sex DLC, then why not add more heterosexual romances. You still alieante WAY too much of the demographic by adding the *** romance DLC.

Why can't you say gay...

Anyway, all of the straight romances would be in the vanilla game disk, only the same sex romances would be in the DLC.

[DeathCultArm]

DaeJi wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

You main point is what exactly? I don't really follow.

That is EA and BioWare want to include same sex romance in future games without turning people off because of them, then they should release that content on a same day DLC separate from the vanilla game disk.

Hmmm....I don't really disagree with that. It makes sense, in fact.

[DaeJi]

Brahlis wrote...

I don't think most people care if the choice of Shepard's orientation is left to the player. The retconning of squadmates is what grinds people's gears.

If it's in a DLC, why would it matter to the people who don't want it?

[John Forseti]

If I write a book in which I say "The car is blue" and then later make a public statement that there are no blue cars in my book, you're going to call shenanigans.

[BattleVisor]

For the last time,

ASARI ARE ASEXUAL SPECIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'The asari were an asexual specied - gender didnt apply to them'
pg 104 Mass Effect, Revelation

They have typically female traits yes, but so do female hyenas have typical male traits.

So people get your head out of your asses.,..no ******

And another argument for the gay romance, would mean squad members would have to be all bi-sexual. WTF I dont care what you think, but the whole world isnt sexually attracted to everything with a heart beat. 

[in hanar's case: a luminous glow]

Modifié par BattleVisor, 08 février 2010 - 01:35 .

[Gvaz]

Bioware is a heterosexual male.



Lesbians are a GO!

Man on Man is a NO-GO!

[DaeJi]

BattleVisor wrote...

For the last time, SCIENTIFICALLY SPEAKING (the books explains as well)

ASARI ARE ASEXUAL SPECIES

Ah, I don't think asexual means what you think it does. It means that a person is not interested in sex.

[juxtaposedjoker]

Brahlis wrote...

juxtaposedjoker wrote...
The very fact YOU CAN CHOOSE whether or not your fem shep likes women or men makes the fact you can't do it with a male character not a matter of third vs first person narratives but a double standard. If you were not supposed to have the power to choose this you wouldn't be able to despite the sex of your character. The fact that the male shepard is heterosexual and not bisexual like his female counterpart refutes Ray Muzyka's entire explanation over the rigidness of the character due to it's narrative medium.

I don't think most people care if the choice of Shepard's orientation is left to the player. The retconning of squadmates is what grinds people's gears.

I don't disagree with what you said but what you are quoting form me has nothing to do with that but with refuting the reason why Ray Muzyka says there isn't a bisexual male Shepard using his very own logic, human sexuality, and what happens in the games as my examples.

[Brahlis]

DaeJi wrote...

If it's in a DLC, why would it matter to the people who don't want it?

As I mentioned before, If it's in a DLC then I don't care at all. It's all the people wanting them to change it in ME3 is what I was referring to.

[CommanderShawn]

BattleVisor wrote...

For the last time, SCIENTIFICALLY SPEAKING (the books explains as well)

ASARI ARE ASEXUAL SPECIES

They have typically female traits yes, but so do female hyenas have typical male traits.

So people get your head out of your asses.,..no ******

And another argument for the gay romance, would mean squad members would have to be all bi-sexual. WTF I dont care what you think, but the whole world isnt sexually attracted to everything with a heart beat. 

[in hanar's case: a luminous glow]

i agree with that

[Khavos]

BattleVisor wrote...

For the last time, SCIENTIFICALLY SPEAKING (the books explains as well)

ASARI ARE ASEXUAL SPECIES

If it's got a vagina, eggs, two X chromosomes, and refers to itself with feminine pronouns, it's a chick. 

But please, let's not get into science.  It's Mass Effect.  Scientific credibility ain't its strong suit.

[BattleVisor]

'The asari were an asexual species - the concePT OF gender didn't apply to them'
pg 104 Mass Effect, Revelation

/CLOSE THREAD

Modifié par BattleVisor, 08 février 2010 - 01:37 .