968 réponses à ce sujet

[BrianWilly]

BattleVisor wrote...

For the last time, SCIENTIFICALLY SPEAKING (the books explains as well)

ASARI ARE ASEXUAL SPECIES

They have typically female traits yes, but so do female hyenas have typical male traits.

How does the book scientifically explain the Asari being asexual?  Because the book would be wrong. "Asexual" means devoid of sexual interest.  Asari and definitely interested in sex, they seek it out all the time.  Not only that, but they actually require a mate in order to reproduce.  A truly asexual species would not.

These are all real world definitions I'm using, borderline common sense.

[Khavos]

BattleVisor wrote...

For the last time,

ASARI ARE ASEXUAL SPECIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'The asari were an asexual specied - gender didnt apply to them'
pg 104 Mass Effect, Revelation

"An all-female race, the asari reproduce through a form of
parthenogenesis."

Mass Effect 1 & 2 Codex.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

No, that woman was in the closet the whole time or was a bisexual who has never experimented with women before, for various reasons.

Tali and Garrus don't show any signs of homosexuality, it seems they're straight. Them turning out to be bisexual would seem like an obvious retcon given their behavior in the past two games. It would be obvious that it was a change in decision by the writers in regards to fan pressure rather than always intended.

That woman in my example also "showed no signs of homosexuality", and it seemed she was straight.

But your language says it all. You say it would "seem" like a retcon because they had not been with same gender prior, but with the woman in my example you say she was "always bisexual but didn't know it". Maybe Garrus and Tali are bisexual and you and they don't know it.

Garrus and Tali are no different than the woman in my example. you merely perceive it as different.

The woman in your example was in the closet and jumped out of it. A person in 'reality" can't "retcon" themself, the first problem was your misuse of the word and term.

It is still retconning based on the nuances of writing a story and foretelling, it isn't like neither has shown any sort of sexual orientation whatsoever. They have and it is straight only based on the fact that you can't have a romance with either if you choose the same sex character. 

There should have been clearer signs that either one of them can go both ways, in the same sense of Dragon Age characters. Once you establish something you stick with it.

Say what you will, making Tali or Garrus bisexual is retconning.

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

Well if everyone wants to dismiss what Casy Hudson said(a developer), why even believe the codex either if the developers made that as well...

You don't seem to understand.  Or maybe you do, and are just advocating-devilishly/trolling/whatever, but in any case: Casey Hudson's definition of what a female is, along with his definition of what a female/female relationship is, do not fit with real life, academic definitions of those two things.  Which is not a dig on him; he is not an ethnographer and I wouldn't expect him to talk like one.  Nevertheless, from every educated perspective in the world, what he said is untrue and doesn't hold up under any sort of logical scrutiny whatsoever.  Ask any gender-studies student or professor in the world: regardless of whether she is an alien or not, Liara and all Asari are sociologically feminine.  A woman.  Female.  A case could be made for her being biologically-female as well, but I personally don't know as much about that and will let more educated persons speak for that argument.

So when Hudson said that there were no female/female romances in ME1, he might as well have said that there were no guns in ME1 and that Commander Shepard stabs and slashes his way through the game with swords.  It simply isn't true from any perspective.  Just because he thinks he developed a game without guns would not mean that he actually developed a game without guns.  Just because he thinks he developed the Asari as being genderless does not mean that they are actually genderless.

I don't know how to make this any clearer.

If I was trolling, i'd be alot less civil. And I understand, se has a womb, female sex, or the whole nine, but still. They only time anyone refers to her as a female is when then want say there was a lesbian romance in ME1. And comparing him saying Asari aren't to saying shepherd didn't use guns is very...questionale, and doesn't make sense. I'ts just at game, and if the dev said she's not a female then I will accept it.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Khavos wrote...

BattleVisor wrote...

For the last time,

ASARI ARE ASEXUAL SPECIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'The asari were an asexual specied - gender didnt apply to them'
pg 104 Mass Effect, Revelation

"An all-female race, the asari reproduce through a form of
parthenogenesis."

Mass Effect 1 & 2 Codex.

Even encyclopedias in reality can be misworded or misphrased. The asari have feminine traits when compared to other species, they are still however of a single gender and as Liara said "female" is an inaccurate term they use for the sake of other species.

[Khavos]

DeathCultArm wrote...

If I was trolling, i'd be alot less civil. And I understand, se has a womb, female sex, or the whole nine, but still. They only time anyone refers to her as a female is when then want say there was a lesbian romance in ME1. And comparing him saying Asari aren't to saying shepherd didn't use guns is very...questionale, and doesn't make sense. I'ts just at game, and if the dev said she's not a female then I will accept it.

What if they say Garrus isn't a male so that a male Shepard can bang him?  Will that work for you?

[BattleVisor]

'The asari were an asexual species - the concept of gender didn't apply to them'
pg 104 Mass Effect, Revelation

/CLOSE THREAD

Asexual: not forming part of a cycle which involves fertilisation and meiosis.

Modifié par BattleVisor, 08 février 2010 - 01:39 .

[Eshaye]

jlb524 wrote...

Oh, and someone tell Ray Muzyka that Baldur's Gate didn't have same sex romances.

Does anyone else find it odd that it fits FemShep's character to be a lesbian, but it doesn't fit MaleShep's character to be gay? What??

Quoting from pages ago, but yeah it IS odd, I guess the fact that she could go for Liara in ME1 gave them enough excuse to have Kelly there as another easy going romantic option. 

Still double standard much?! 

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Myrmedus wrote...


Exactly, and that's the point here. Perception vs. Reality.

This is a videogame so everyone playing it, all the millions of gamers, are perceiving every square inch of it. I can say with some confidence that most of the players would view that as a retcon. It might not be right, it may not make sense in reality, but I guarantee it would happen.

So? All that proves is that different people will perceive the information differently. That means there will be opposing viewpoints to be argued.

Therefore, why are you on these forums trying to say your perception is any better than someone else's? I wouldn't see Garrus developing an interest in male Shep a retcon. Just becuase you would means you're right and it should never be done? But you don't go even that far. So far you've just been saying that it shouldn't even be discussed because it's "a small part of the game".

Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

[BattleVisor]

Khavos wrote...

What if they say Garrus isn't a male so that a male Shepard can bang him?  Will that work for you?

No because he's a f****g bird. 

Modifié par BattleVisor, 08 février 2010 - 01:41 .

[BrianWilly]

DeathCultArm wrote...

If I was trolling, i'd be alot less civil. And I understand, se has a womb, female sex, or the whole nine, but still. They only time anyone refers to her as a female is when then want say there was a lesbian romance in ME1. And comparing him saying Asari aren't to saying shepherd didn't use guns is very...questionale, and doesn't make sense. I'ts just at game, and if the dev said she's not a female then I will accept it.

How is it questionable?  Both would make the exact same amount of sense: none.

And actually...any time you, or I , or anyone else, or anything in the game refers to any Asari as "she" or "her," they are by definition referring to them as females.

You don't call Liara a "him" or an "it." If you truly believed that she was not a woman, then perhaps you should start.

[DeathCultArm]

Khavos wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

If I was trolling, i'd be alot less civil. And I understand, se has a womb, female sex, or the whole nine, but still. They only time anyone refers to her as a female is when then want say there was a lesbian romance in ME1. And comparing him saying Asari aren't to saying shepherd didn't use guns is very...questionale, and doesn't make sense. I'ts just at game, and if the dev said she's not a female then I will accept it.

What if they say Garrus isn't a male so that a male Shepard can bang him?  Will that work for you?

That' really not a legitimate comparison.

[Kolaris8472]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Say what you will, making Tali or Garrus bisexual is retconning.

It seems it would come down to whether you feel individual attraction is a choice or not, or whether sexual taste is a choice. I do, and whether or not Tali got it on quicker with a Male Shephard in an alternative universe that wouldn't exist in said playthrough, a more intimate relationship would still make sense given where they left off. 

Though the crux of my argument throughout all these threads was trying to get people to understand that if a character is not a love interest, they have severely limited dialog. That would drastically weaken the Tali/Femshep relationship to a degree that (because it still fits in my eyes, if it was explicitly out then I agree retconning == BAD) it would be a lesser-evil to have the option open in ME3/DLC. 

[Deviija]

Shavon wrote...

Ray's answer is a very roundabout way of saying no. Ugh, that drives me nuts. Just effing say no. It kind of pisses me off FShep can be gay and not MShep. No way around that one with the 'Asari are asexual'. What does that make Kelly? They need to fix this.

I feel similar.  And am annoyed by this.  It makes me view FemShep in a negative way, too, with the phrasing of 'defined character.'  It makes me think she isn't FemShep, she's just MaleShepard with boobs.  I don't see how 'constraining' a character's personality can allow for bisexual/lesbian FemShep, and offer male romance interests, when it cannot allow for a gay/bisexual DudeShep, and still offer female romance interests.  It just sounds like a big cop-out instead of saying, 'No, there will be none. In fact, Sheploo is now canon.'  

[DaeJi]

BattleVisor wrote...

'The asari were an asexual species - the concept of gender didn't apply to them'
pg 104 Mass Effect, Revelation

/CLOSE THREAD

Asexual: not forming part of a cycle which involves fertilisation and meiosis.

One, the thread is not about what gender (female) the Asari are. Two, that's asexual reproduction, the Asari reproduce sexually (they need a mate).

[Khavos]

DeathCultArm wrote...

Khavos wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

If I was trolling, i'd be alot less civil. And I understand, se has a womb, female sex, or the whole nine, but still. They only time anyone refers to her as a female is when then want say there was a lesbian romance in ME1. And comparing him saying Asari aren't to saying shepherd didn't use guns is very...questionale, and doesn't make sense. I'ts just at game, and if the dev said she's not a female then I will accept it.

What if they say Garrus isn't a male so that a male Shepard can bang him?  Will that work for you?

That' really not a legitimate comparison.

Why not?  Have you seen or seen referenced any turian females thus far? 

If they can try to use semantics to retcon their initial position in one case, I don't see why they can't do it in another.

[Brahlis]

Shavon wrote...
So what if having characters in ME3 become bisexual is considered retconning. They already 'retconned' by making Garrus and Tlai romancable, and that wasn't a bad thing at all. Besides, I can see Tali becoming open to f/f without it being out of character.

That was not retconning ....

[Kolaris8472]

BattleVisor wrote...

'The asari were an asexual species - the concept of gender didn't apply to them'
pg 104 Mass Effect, Revelation

/CLOSE THREAD

Asexual: not forming part of a cycle which involves fertilisation and meiosis.

This was BEFORE they met other species. For a mono-gendered species, of course its an irrelevant term. Once you meet non-mono-gendered species, its obvious what they are. 

[juxtaposedjoker]

The Asari have one gender copout is WRONG. We are not discussing Asari sexuality. We are talking about human sexuality and for humans what your sexual partner looks like is very important. What parts you enjoy matter. If they didn't we would just all be bisexual and not even arguing this.



It is shepards sexuality we are talking about and if we are not supposed to have the power as players to change that then both the male and female characters would be heterosexual because not all men are default heterosexual and not all women are by default bisexual despite the overall cultural acceptance of female sex.

[BattleVisor]

Seriously this thread is a great example of how thick headed people can be, when they 'believe' they are defending non-existent liberties

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

If I was trolling, i'd be alot less civil. And I understand, se has a womb, female sex, or the whole nine, but still. They only time anyone refers to her as a female is when then want say there was a lesbian romance in ME1. And comparing him saying Asari aren't to saying shepherd didn't use guns is very...questionale, and doesn't make sense. I'ts just at game, and if the dev said she's not a female then I will accept it.

How is it questionable?  Both would make the exact same amount of sense: none.

And actually...any time you, or I , or anyone else, or anything in the game refers to any Asari as "she" or "her," they are by definition referring to them as females.

You don't call Liara a "him" or an "it." If you truly believed that she was not a woman, then perhaps you should start.

I think that is being a little to literal. Calling Liara a female is no more diffenent than calling a car or a ship "she". It's easier to call Liara a she so I do so.

Is there even a point to this? If is wasn't for people want there to be *** romance in ME1, no one would've even cared that Liara wasn't a female.

[DaeJi]

juxtaposedjoker wrote...

The Asari have one gender copout is WRONG. We are not discussing Asari sexuality. We are talking about human sexuality and for humans what your sexual partner looks like is very important. What parts you enjoy matter. If they didn't we would just all be bisexual and not even arguing this.

It is shepards sexuality we are talking about and if we are not supposed to have the power as players to change that then both the male and female characters would be heterosexual because not all men are default heterosexual and not all women are by default bisexual despite the overall cultural acceptance of female sex.

Point. Even if the Asari themselves don't consider themself female (and they do), humans do. Including a female Shepard.

[Khavos]

BattleVisor wrote...

Seriously this thread is a great example of how thick headed people can be, when they 'believe' they are defending non-existent liberties

I thought it was a great example of how stupid society is.  I mean, we have nerds taking glorified fan fiction as 'scientific fact.' 

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Brahlis wrote...


That was not retconning ....

It was if you go by logic presented thus far.

"Garrus and Tali showed absolutely 0 interest in Shepard romantically in ME1, so their new ME2 romance can be perceived as retconning."


This is especially true if you were a renegade to Tali, as one of my Sheps was. not giving her the data makes Tali an impertinent, whiny child who pretty muchd espises you, but as soon as you enter ME2 she becomes very respectful and caring about you.

Easily perceived as a retcon.