968 réponses à ce sujet

[Kolaris8472]

Brahlis wrote...

Shavon wrote...
So what if having characters in ME3 become bisexual is considered retconning. They already 'retconned' by making Garrus and Tlai romancable, and that wasn't a bad thing at all. Besides, I can see Tali becoming open to f/f without it being out of character.

That was not retconning ....

No it wasn't, but it was a fanservice that went beyond normal character development. Additionally, and personally, I've been trying to argue that for Tali at least, the amount of "stretching" it would take for her to be a female romance interest would be less than went into making her romanceable in the first place. 

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Shavon wrote...
So what if having characters in ME3 become bisexual is considered retconning. They already 'retconned' by making Garrus and Tlai romancable,

Explain

For Garrus I don't see any retconning at work... same for Tali. Nothing in either game showed that an interspecies romance was impossible, they didn't address the question or issue at all.

The ONLY thing I think a person could argue was possible retconning is Tali being romancable, but then again we never got the details of how the sterility worked.

Still I won't deny, it is quite obvious either of them being romancable was done out of fan request. At least though they were narratively sensible.. but now them being bisexual? Seems pretty odd.

Either way, neither romance is a retcon.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 08 février 2010 - 01:48 .

[DeathCultArm]

Khavos wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

Khavos wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

If I was trolling, i'd be alot less civil. And I understand, se has a womb, female sex, or the whole nine, but still. They only time anyone refers to her as a female is when then want say there was a lesbian romance in ME1. And comparing him saying Asari aren't to saying shepherd didn't use guns is very...questionale, and doesn't make sense. I'ts just at game, and if the dev said she's not a female then I will accept it.

What if they say Garrus isn't a male so that a male Shepard can bang him?  Will that work for you?

That' really not a legitimate comparison.

Why not?  Have you seen or seen referenced any turian females thus far? 

If they can try to use semantics to retcon their initial position in one case, I don't see why they can't do it in another.

There are no male or female Asari unlike Turians who have both gender, and Garrus has been proven to be a male. So like I said, not a valid comparison.

[DaeJi]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Brahlis wrote...


That was not retconning ....

It was if you go by logic presented thus far.

"Garrus and Tali showed absolutely 0 interest in Shepard romantically in ME1, so their new ME2 romance can be perceived as retconning."


This is especially true if you were a renegade to Tali, as one of my Sheps was. not giving her the data makes Tali an impertinent, whiny child who pretty muchd espises you, but as soon as you enter ME2 she becomes very respectful and caring about you.

Easily perceived as a retcon.

Another point. My male renegade Shepard was not kind to Tali at all, and yet she wants him?

Modifié par DaeJi, 08 février 2010 - 01:48 .

[Brahlis]

It was not reconned because it was NOT established one way or the other for them.

If you had said before Mass Effect 2 ever came out, "It'd be nice if a femshep relationship was available with Tali" or "It'd be nice if a maleShep relationship was available with Garrus, then the proper response would be, "Well, yeah, I guess that could happen."You know why? Because it had yet to be established what their orientation was.

However, in Mass Effect 2 is was established. They're straight. Tali falls for MaleShep and Garrus goes for FemShep.
How hard is that to understand? It wasn't retconning them in this game because it hadn't yet been established, but now that is HAS been established it WOULD be retconning the change it.

Modifié par Brahlis, 08 février 2010 - 01:53 .

[mcvxiii]

Brahlis wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
But your language says it all. You say it would "seem" like a retcon because they had not been with same gender prior, but with the woman in my example you say she was "always bisexual but didn't know it". Maybe Garrus and Tali are bisexual and you and they don't know it.

No matter what kind of crap you use to try to rationalize it, it is still retconning.

Oh c'mon and the Tali romance wasn't? That was majour bit retconning.

I don't understand why the same-sex crowd must be quelled in the first palce or why people who wouldn't play the option are so heavily invested in the topic, beyond trolling that is. The same sex-crowd are consumers and and as such are letting their concerns and hopes for ME3 be heard by BioWare just like everyone else who participates in this forum. Wow, the same sex-crowd really are people just like everyone else is. Imagine that. The decision is eventually BioWares to make and it appears that they are not going to do it because Mass Effect is not a game about choice or the story of a player but a third person narrative pre-defined character story that offers choice so that the player creates their Shepard and story or whatever that bit senseless doublespeak was. It is unfortunate that they are not going to do it for whatever the real reason is.

Modifié par mcvxiii, 08 février 2010 - 01:50 .

[BattleVisor]

juxtaposedjoker wrote....

It is shepards sexuality we are talking about and if we are not supposed to have the power as players to change that then both the male and female characters would be heterosexual because not all men are default heterosexual and not all women are by default bisexual despite the overall cultural acceptance of female sex.

Ok if your shepard is gay, then that would mean that LI squad mates would have both bisexual tendencies to cater to everyone, which kinda makes everything so stupid.

Like every singly being, has to have the option to have sex with anything with a heart beat.

WTF is that? Not my idea of mass effect. But it doesnt matter what the fans think about this, because EA wont let it happen.

Modifié par BattleVisor, 08 février 2010 - 01:49 .

[Brahlis]

mcvxiii wrote...
Oh c'mon and the Tali romance wasn't? That was majour bit retconning.

Read my post above. It really isn't that hard to understand.

Some people, GD.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Brahlis wrote...

It was not reconned because it was NOT established one way or the other for them.

All they've established is that Tali and Garrus like the opposite gender. It still isn't strictly established whether or not they can be bisexual.

You're simply assuming they are not.

[Brahlis]

Shavon wrote...
Um yes it was, now I'm wodnering if you even know how to properly use the term, Jeez your ignorance is appalling

Your own ignorance is appalling. Read my post above.

[BrianWilly]

DeathCultArm wrote...

I think that is being a little to literal. Calling Liara a female is no more diffenent than calling a car or a ship "she". It's easier to call Liara a she so I do so.

Is there even a point to this? If is wasn't for people want there to be *** romance in ME1, no one would've even cared that Liara wasn't a female.

Anthropomorphizing an object is one thing.  How can you anthropomorphize an actual person?  You refer to a person by the gender-specific pronoun.  That's the way language works.

No one actually thinks the Liara is genderless.  If they did, they would never refer to her as "her." You can't have it both ways, saying that she doesn't have a gender yet consistently referring to her by a gender all the time.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 08 février 2010 - 01:53 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

I really don't want to be chatting it up with Garrus, my friend from my mission against Saren and the Collectors and for him suddenly to think I want him in my cabin.



Not that I'm using it as an argument for why this retcon shouldn't happen or against having male-on-male relationships in ME3.



Just making a small statement.

[Brahlis]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
All they've established is that Tali and Garrus like the opposite gender. It still isn't strictly established whether or not they can be bisexual.

You're simply assuming they are not.

Yes. And Shepard could also be a transvestite. We don't know; it hasn't been established!

Seriously - yes, I am assuming. I'm making the most logical assumption and not some half-assed fantasy about a topic that's already been pretty much shot down.

[Kolaris8472]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I really don't want to be chatting it up with Garrus, my friend from my mission against Saren and the Collectors and for him suddenly to think I want him in my cabin.

Not that I'm using it as an argument for why this retcon shouldn't happen or against having male-on-male relationships in ME3.

Just making a small statement.

That's not how it works for Femsheps either. You bring up the option to him. 

[Khavos]

DeathCultArm wrote...

There are no male or female Asari unlike Turians who have both gender, and Garrus has been proven to be a male. So like I said, not a valid comparison.

How do you know Turians have both genders?  The codex?  It's already been established that you can't trust that, right?  

[juxtaposedjoker]

BattleVisor wrote...

juxtaposedjoker wrote....

It is shepards sexuality we are talking about and if we are not supposed to have the power as players to change that then both the male and female characters would be heterosexual because not all men are default heterosexual and not all women are by default bisexual despite the overall cultural acceptance of female sex.

Ok if your shepard is gay, then that would mean that LI squad mates would have both bisexual tendencies to cater to everyone, which kinda makes everything so stupid.

Like every singly being, has to have the option to have sex with anything with a heart beat.

WTF is that? Not my idea of mass effect. But it doesnt matter what the fans think about this, because EA wont let it happen.

It doesn't matter if you like those options or not.  I'm just using Ray Muzykas logic against him. 

Ultimately, if that choice was in mass effect and had been from the begining then you and other players like you would have just avoided it and kept on playing.  I understand that if they suddenly changed this for ME3 it would be stupid.  I don't want to see a bisexual male shepard in me3 because it lacks cohesion.  Just as I wouldn't want to see a heterosexual female shepard since she wasn't in the previous games.

I'm arguing that the game proliferates a double standard in human sexuality and since a game with a heavy plot is a medium of expression similar to a novel, painting or movie, what it says and doesn't say about human sexuality matters to the audiance members who like to critically look at a work from the gender or sexuality arguments.

[BattleVisor]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

It was not reconned because it was NOT established one way or the other for them.

All they've established is that Tali and Garrus like the opposite gender. It still isn't strictly established whether or not they can be bisexual.

You're simply assuming they are not.

Garrus is not gay He is a Bromance interest.

I dont why people cant just enjoy emotional relationships, surely they are much more valuable than just a physical fling.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Brahlis wrote...

Seriously - yes, I am assuming.

And we're done here.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

BattleVisor wrote...
Garrus is not gay He is a Bromance interest.

I dont why people cant just enjoy emotional relationships, surely they are much more valuable than just a physical fling.

I didn't say or imply anywhere that he was gay.

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

I think that is being a little to literal. Calling Liara a female is no more diffenent than calling a car or a ship "she". It's easier to call Liara a she so I do so.

Is there even a point to this? If is wasn't for people want there to be *** romance in ME1, no one would've even cared that Liara wasn't a female.

Anthropomorphizing an object is one thing.  How can you anthropomorphize an actual person?  You refer to a person by the gender-specific pronoun.  That's the way language works.

No one actually thinks the Liara is genderless.  If they did, they would never refer to her as "her." It simply doesn't work that way.

Liara doesn't have a gender. Yet she looks like a female so it's easier to just call IT a she. At the end of the day you can call IT a she if you want. There wasn't  *** romance in ME2, so it really doesn't matter.

[Khavos]

BattleVisor wrote...

Garrus is not gay He is a Bromance interest.

I dont why people cant just enjoy emotional relationships, surely they are much more valuable than just a physical fling.

You kind of sabotage yourself when you follow up a statement such as "Garrus is not gay" by using the word "bromance". 

[Brahlis]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
And we're done here.

Yeah, you're right. This thread was done the moment people started making all these reasons why it "should" or "would" happen. It's not. Sucks for you.

[Kolaris8472]

BattleVisor wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

It was not reconned because it was NOT established one way or the other for them.

All they've established is that Tali and Garrus like the opposite gender. It still isn't strictly established whether or not they can be bisexual.

You're simply assuming they are not.

Garrus is not gay He is a Bromance interest.

I dont why people cant just enjoy emotional relationships, surely they are much more valuable than just a physical fling.

Correct as an option, except that 30-40% of a romance interest's dialog is wrapped up in their romance scenes. In a lot of cases in ME2, romance precludes bromance.