968 réponses à ce sujet

[DaeJi]

Brahlis wrote...
Counter: Or the people complaining that they should change it and add it into the game should "STOP WHINING!".

We're not whining, we're bringing our views to BioWare's attention.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Brahlis wrote...
Counter: Or the people complaining that they should change it and add it into the game should "STOP WHINING!".

People should stop asking for optional and additional content? Not much of a counter, there, bub.

Shall we all sit down and never say we want to see something changed again?

[Myrmedus]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...
Again, please stop reading into my posts some sense of superiority. Just because I'm arguing with a group of people who perceive themselves - and are perceived generally - as a minority does not mean I'm being superior.

Some might argue that assuming your opinion about an uncertain and hypothetical issue to be "the majority" is a sense of superiority.

If you didn't think that being amongst a majority was superior or that it somehow reinforced your opinion, then why are you arguing at all? Just to waste time?

What are you even talking about? Should I reply with this:

"How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"

Seriously, what? I basically indicated that those who are looking for same-sex relationships (or are same-sex themselves) in this game are in the minority, which they are as you can tell from this thread or the latest governmental stats in your particular country regarding sexuality polls.

Therefore, because of that it means those on the other side of the fence would logically be the majority, and I said that I was fairly confident those people would generally view the change of character as a retcon

What is superior in that sentence? Do you insist on reading something into everything someone says? You're not a psychiatrist are you? :/

Modifié par Myrmedus, 08 février 2010 - 02:12 .

[Kolaris8472]

Myrmedus wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Say what you will, making Tali or Garrus bisexual is retconning.

It seems it would come down to whether you feel individual attraction is a choice or not, or whether sexual taste is a choice. I do, and whether or not Tali got it on quicker with a Male Shephard in an alternative universe that wouldn't exist in said playthrough, a more intimate relationship would still make sense given where they left off. 

Though the crux of my argument throughout all these threads was trying to get people to understand that if a character is not a love interest, they have severely limited dialog. That would drastically weaken the Tali/Femshep relationship to a degree that (because it still fits in my eyes, if it was explicitly out then I agree retconning == BAD) it would be a lesser-evil to have the option open in ME3/DLC. 

Then they should just sort out friendship dialogues IMO. For example, Thane was still done well even as a Male Shepard so more like this should allieviate that problem.

This is my #1 hope, and why I call simply having the voice-actors read off the same lines a lesser-evil. But quite frankly, they won't. What IS very likely, and would work in this case (Tali/Female Shephard) specifically for reasons I've stated countless times elsewhere, is just letting the voice actors keep reading. 

[binaryemperor]

heh, that brings to mind the old saying " two dudes: it's a sin, Two chicks: it's a party"

[Brahlis]

defenestrated wrote...
I'm all in favor of a good retcon - Agrajag FTW - but how are the Tali and Garrus romances retcons? I've not tried them (yet?) but it's my understanding that their romantic attraction is established as new, not something they kept secret in ME1.

Don't bring your logic in here; lest Shavon tell you that you're not making sense.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Myrmedus wrote...

Seriously, what? I basically indicated that those who are looking for same-sex relationships (or are same-sex themselves) in this game are in the minority, which they are as you can tell from this thread or the latest governmental stats in your particular country regarding sexuality polls.

Therefore, because of that it means those on the other side of the fence would logically be the majority, and I said that I was fairly confident those people would generally view the change of character as a retcon

What is superior in that sentence? Do you insist on reading something into everything someone says? You're not a psychiatrist are you? :/

I recommend rereading what I wrote.

You keep telling me that all you're doing is "pointing out" what you think the "majority" on the issue is.

I was, quite simply, asking why that's in any way important.

[Khavos]

DeathCultArm wrote...

Khavos wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

Well it's quite obvious he is no dev has ever as ever come out to say otherwise like Asari. Turians have gender unlike Asari, and well all know Garrus isn't a female...SO...I don't see what you're not getting exactly.

It's quite obvious that Liara is a female as well.  The only thing stating that turians have gender is the codex, and if you believe that asari are not an all-female race as the codex states, then why would you not believe that the issue of turian gender is in question? 

Like I said, a dev never same out and said that Turians don't have gender. One did explain that Asari aren't females.

And at least one other - whoever wrote the codex entry - has said that they are.  That one - who you choose to disbelieve - also stated that turians have two genders.  Thus, the whole "no male/male" romance thing would be easily solved by Hudson going, "Oh, hey, turians don't have gender either," and making Garrus romanceable for males.

And you would have absolutely no problem with that, I take it?  

[Myrmedus]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Say what you will, making Tali or Garrus bisexual is retconning.

It seems it would come down to whether you feel individual attraction is a choice or not, or whether sexual taste is a choice. I do, and whether or not Tali got it on quicker with a Male Shephard in an alternative universe that wouldn't exist in said playthrough, a more intimate relationship would still make sense given where they left off. 

Though the crux of my argument throughout all these threads was trying to get people to understand that if a character is not a love interest, they have severely limited dialog. That would drastically weaken the Tali/Femshep relationship to a degree that (because it still fits in my eyes, if it was explicitly out then I agree retconning == BAD) it would be a lesser-evil to have the option open in ME3/DLC. 

Then they should just sort out friendship dialogues IMO. For example, Thane was still done well even as a Male Shepard so more like this should allieviate that problem.

This is my #1 hope, and why I call simply having the voice-actors read off the same lines a lesser-evil. But quite frankly, they won't. What IS very likely, and would work in this case (Tali/Female Shephard) specifically for reasons I've stated countless times elsewhere, is just letting the voice actors keep reading. 

Er crap - by the way I meant "Thane was well done even as Male" in my post - just in case that screwed up the meaning in my post

[Myrmedus]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Seriously, what? I basically indicated that those who are looking for same-sex relationships (or are same-sex themselves) in this game are in the minority, which they are as you can tell from this thread or the latest governmental stats in your particular country regarding sexuality polls.

Therefore, because of that it means those on the other side of the fence would logically be the majority, and I said that I was fairly confident those people would generally view the change of character as a retcon

What is superior in that sentence? Do you insist on reading something into everything someone says? You're not a psychiatrist are you? :/

I recommend rereading what I wrote.

You keep telling me that all you're doing is "pointing out" what you think the "majority" on the issue is.

I was, quite simply, asking why that's in any way important.

It's important because I stated that I believe the majority would believe such a character change to be retcon.

Why is that important? Because BW and EA are a business, they produce a product that attempts to cater to the largest market possible, and therefore characterization changes etc. will always be shipped to appeal to the majority of that market. If the majority of the market would perceive something as a cheap retcon they won't do it.

This isn't just the case for matters of sexuality but any kind of perceived retcon if it is perceived that way through the majority opinion. An example of something similar is the berrating that the final boss has gotten because it looks like a T-800 - even though this was probably a completely original and sensible idea from the developers unfortunately for them it appears the majority of their market has seen the Terminator movies and therefore paints the encounter with the "rip-off" brush.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 08 février 2010 - 02:17 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Only Garrus's romance is new...



Tali's actually does seem like a secret especially as she confesses how long she has watched Shepard. It makes a lot of sense too, Tali was on her Pilgrimage and has faced nothing but discrimination then come Shepard to save her, ask about her culture, fight with her and together they save the galaxy, helped her w/ her Pilgrimage by giving her a piece of Geth technology, etc.



And then she practically worships you based on your first encounter and how often she mentions you in her log books on Haestrom. She's been crushing on him for a long time and obvious has a deep attraction to him.



Garrus's romance, some admit is awkward and doesn't feel genuine.. but Tali's is quite classical.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

The only issue w/ the Tali romance is that she can even love the Renegade.. makes no sense since the Renegade treats her like crap.



But I suppose there is no way for Bioware to have created the software to kept track of how you treated Tali.

[BrianWilly]

DeathCultArm wrote...

Like I said, a dev never same out and said that Turians don't have gender. One did explain that Asari aren't females.

Correction, he didn't actually explain it at all.  Obviously, since if he did, he probably would have realized that it didn't make any sense to think so, and that he was wrong.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Myrmedus wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
Say what you will, making Tali or Garrus bisexual is retconning.

It seems it would come down to whether you feel individual attraction is a choice or not, or whether sexual taste is a choice. I do, and whether or not Tali got it on quicker with a Male Shephard in an alternative universe that wouldn't exist in said playthrough, a more intimate relationship would still make sense given where they left off. 

Though the crux of my argument throughout all these threads was trying to get people to understand that if a character is not a love interest, they have severely limited dialog. That would drastically weaken the Tali/Femshep relationship to a degree that (because it still fits in my eyes, if it was explicitly out then I agree retconning == BAD) it would be a lesser-evil to have the option open in ME3/DLC. 

Then they should just sort out friendship dialogues IMO. For example, Thane was still done well even as a Male Shepard so more like this should allieviate that problem.

This is my #1 hope, and why I call simply having the voice-actors read off the same lines a lesser-evil. But quite frankly, they won't. What IS very likely, and would work in this case (Tali/Female Shephard) specifically for reasons I've stated countless times elsewhere, is just letting the voice actors keep reading. 

Er crap - by the way I meant "Thane was well done even as Male" in my post - just in case that screwed up the meaning in my post

I know what you meant and I agree, Thane and Shepard establish a honest friendship. A good one, which makes me upset that Garrus only wants "Revenge!" and "Calibrate main cannons!".

[DeathCultArm]

Khavos wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

Khavos wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

Well it's quite obvious he is no dev has ever as ever come out to say otherwise like Asari. Turians have gender unlike Asari, and well all know Garrus isn't a female...SO...I don't see what you're not getting exactly.

It's quite obvious that Liara is a female as well.  The only thing stating that turians have gender is the codex, and if you believe that asari are not an all-female race as the codex states, then why would you not believe that the issue of turian gender is in question? 

Like I said, a dev never same out and said that Turians don't have gender. One did explain that Asari aren't females.

And at least one other - whoever wrote the codex entry - has said that they are.  That one - who you choose to disbelieve - also stated that turians have two genders.  Thus, the whole "no male/male" romance thing would be easily solved by Hudson going, "Oh, hey, turians don't have gender either," and making Garrus romanceable for males.

And you would have absolutely no problem with that, I take it?  

No, b/c Garrus has already been established as a man. You can say he has no gener b/c there are both male and female turians. With Asari there were never any "males" int he first place. You can say Garrus has no gender if they're are already said they're both male and female....That make sense?

[Adon 9]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Brahlis wrote...
Counter: Or the people complaining that they should change it and add it into the game should "STOP WHINING!".

People should stop asking for optional and additional content? Not much of a counter, there, bub.

Shall we all sit down and never say we want to see something changed again?

The "STOP WHINING" arguments are sadly very, very common regarding games.  Basically, there are a lot of people who for whatever reason think that if something is not important to them, it shouldn't be important to anyone, and that for some reason it is wrong to ask the devs for it.  We've already seen plenty of that in this thread.

The problem with that is that it denies the notion of feedback -- that somehow we don't have a right to say 'I would like to see X in the game'.  It's not a guarantee that it will actually happen, but it is very aggrivating that there are so many people who take issue with the fact that you want something they don't, regardless of whether it is something they could completely ignore.

[Myrmedus]

To be fair I'm ok with Garrus. If ME2 was his only showing then I wouldn't be but across the two games my Shepard and Garrus almost have a 'partnership' relationship it feels that close.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Myrmedus wrote...
It's important because I stated that I believe the majority would believe such a character change to be retcon.

Why is that important? Because BW and EA are a business, they produce a product that attempts to cater to the largest market possible, and therefore characterization changes etc. will always be shipped to appeal to the majority of that market. If the majority of the market would perceive something as a cheap retcon they won't do it.

BioWare never tries to appeal to a single majority. That's evidenced in a lot of the optional content they throw into the game.

[Kolaris8472]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Only Garrus's romance is new...

Tali's actually does seem like a secret especially as she confesses how long she has watched Shepard. It makes a lot of sense too, Tali was on her Pilgrimage and has faced nothing but discrimination then come Shepard to save her, ask about her culture, fight with her and together they save the galaxy, helped her w/ her Pilgrimage by giving her a piece of Geth technology, etc.

And then she practically worships you based on your first encounter and how often she mentions you in her log books on Haestrom. She's been crushing on him for a long time and obvious has a deep attraction to him.

And all of that is true of a Female Shephard as well...but sorry, no idea what your personal views of the matter are. 

In fact, in a cruel twist of fate, you can be much more discriminatory to Tali, not even help her on her Pilgrimage, keep her stuffed in the Engine room, and still come across as more interesting or appealing than a Female Shephard who did all the things in your post. For an extra-species relationship, this is a pretty hard sell for me. 

[Myrmedus]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...
It's important because I stated that I believe the majority would believe such a character change to be retcon.

Why is that important? Because BW and EA are a business, they produce a product that attempts to cater to the largest market possible, and therefore characterization changes etc. will always be shipped to appeal to the majority of that market. If the majority of the market would perceive something as a cheap retcon they won't do it.

BioWare never tries to appeal to a single majority. That's evidenced in a lot of the optional content they throw into the game.

This is where you're wrong.

Firstly, the shift to more shooter-esque mechanics was a perfect example of 'widening' their market. 

Secondly, on the basis of optional content you'd be surprised at the proportion of players who own BW games who actually purchase the DLCs, and the numbers would be even higher if they weren't so easy for many players to torrent them.

I don't have an issue with them putting this in a DLC, heck I don't care if it's in the main game or not as long as it doesn't diminish the quality of the overall game/story - if it does then I'd even go as far as to have the romances thrown out completely.

However, I seriously doubt it'll happen because there are alot of potential issues with it for relatively very little payoff (since it caters to a minority of the playerbase). I can explain potential issues with it if you want but in the development cycle of a game it goes through alot of hands and I can bet you there will be some who take issue with it, most importantly the voice actors (you'd be surprised).

Modifié par Myrmedus, 08 février 2010 - 02:23 .

[DeathCultArm]

BrianWilly wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

Like I said, a dev never same out and said that Turians don't have gender. One did explain that Asari aren't females.

Correction, he didn't actually explain it at all.  Obviously, since if he did, he probably would have realized that it didn't make any sense to think so, and that he was wrong.

What exaclty does proving Asari are females do? I don't get it what's your point? Why has no dev never ever said CH was wrong?

[DBHolm]

Brahlis wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...
But your language says it all. You say it would "seem" like a retcon because they had not been with same gender prior, but with the woman in my example you say she was "always bisexual but didn't know it". Maybe Garrus and Tali are bisexual and you and they don't know it.

No matter what kind of crap you use to try to rationalize it, it is still retconning.

I agree. Making a character who isn't bisexual into one is retconning. Of course that would require an established sexual identity, at least in the minds of the writers. Changing that concept simply to accommodate a vocal minority is wrong, in principle. (No, developing feelings for someone is not "changing the concept", it's character development. There's a difference.) Retconning isn't always bad, of course.

I have no problem with people who want a male/male romance in the game, but I don't see it as necessary, either. Not every opportunity can be realized in a single game. The given reason in that article is crap, though. Shepard is supposed to be our character -- we define him or her through our choices. We can certainly decide the sexual identity of a female Shepard. If anyone wants to portray their Shepard as a gay man, I see no problem with it. It is unfortunate that it cannot be expressed with a male/male romance. I would also say it is somewhat unfair that there is the opportunity for female/female romances in game but not the other. 

[Brahlis]

Yeah, Mrymedus, how dare they improve the combat system. G** D*** you, Bioware, you Communist heathens.

[Lord Atlia]

Saskuatch wrote...

I don't understand why people whine how a character romancing femshep will affect the characters integrity, if you play a maleshep it wouldnt matter at all you would never see thing option happening so as ahnuld says it STOP WHINING

Well in a gender studies classes things like, race, gender, class, and sexual preference are things that define you as a person.  If you were to take sexual preference out you be taking out a pillar of identity.  If I were to walk into a bar and hit on a strictly lesbian women, no matter how compatible we are, she would turn me down based on sexual preference.  That is in a sense what these characters are doing, Bioware just doesn't want to invest the resources to make a scene of a character turning you down because that might be more hurtful than just not letting the romance start at all.

[Myrmedus]

Brahlis wrote...

Yeah, Mrymedus, how dare they improve the combat system. G** D*** you, Bioware, you Communist heathens.

I can't tell if you're just mucking around or not but...in the event you're not: I love the new combat system so don't get a pole up your arse

Having said that, even though I love the new system that doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact it was mostly to cater to a wider market.

And if you were just mucking around then as Joker says: No problem, good game!

Modifié par Myrmedus, 08 février 2010 - 02:26 .