968 réponses à ce sujet

[Myrmedus]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Cajeb wrote...

I don't personally mind the absence of M/M relationships, but I do think they should be included. However I think it should be an in character thing. It shouldn't be a completely straight character being gay in another playthrough. Either write in a bisexual relationship ala Zevran or write in an actually gay character. Not just a Kaiden or Jacob who mysteriously turns gay depending on dialogue options.

I've had a lot of time to think about the, "turning a straight character gay," thanks to lots of exposure to fanfiction and fandom in general (I prefer m/f relationships but have seen plenty of m/m). One common response to this that keeps coming up is... at what point did the characters indicate that they were 100%, absolutely cross my heart and hope to die straight? Yes, they have shown interest in women... but that doesn't mean they're exempt from showing interest in men as well. The Kinsey scale is, in fact, a scale, and it's perfectly possible for a man to show interest in women (lots of women!) while still potentially having feelings for another man (be it just in general, or for one particular man).

It's based on the dialogue options of the PC rather than the character in question. It builds a fairly obvious example of whether a character is 'romance-able' and therefore makes it feel like retcon to go back on that later on. Tali could've been argued to feel like this but she was young in ME1, as for Garrus he's probably the biggest offender.

[ERJAK2]

locsphere wrote...

Omg, I don't care if its in or out, but does it really have to be a debate? You have sex with aliens how much more equal opportunity can it get?

Good point used in wrong context. You have alien romances, but no same-gender ones. That's not a happy message to send.

[Brahlis]

_000Darkstar wrote...
tl;dr Put yourself in someone else's place, show a little empathy for them, and STFU.

Nobody has to do anything.

Modifié par Brahlis, 08 février 2010 - 05:21 .

[Xpardox91X]

A well said excuse. However, as with what most people said already... then why was the choice available in the first Mass Effect? I can see why homosexuality for the Male Shepard was cut [not to be stereotypist or whatever but...] well, since Shepard is an elite operative, it would be a bit of an image breaker for him to be into Men; however, a Female Shepard, who is into women, would make more sense.

Of course, if BioWare allowed one gender to have same-sex relations, the other half would complain that theirs isn't included.

I believe, as with what most people have said (again), is that it is mainly due to EA.

[UsagiVindaloo]

DeathCultArm wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Something to consider, however, is that there is active racism/prejudice and... I guess more passive? In other words, not standing up and taking a stand. That's a lot better than saying GRR I HATE BLACKS GAYS WOMEN ETC, but on the other hand, silence or acceptance will not always change the world. Sometimes it's good to say, "Hey, you know what, this isn't cool." 

I'm not sure I totally like the idea of calling the silently accepting type racists, homophobic, whatever... but at the same time, I wouldn't call them particularly progressive either, and I can sort of understand why people would call you a racist, because while you may not preach hatred, you don't stand up against it either.

Of course, you may do so in your own ways apart from the game. That's fine. But rather than writing us off as being too worked up over a game, think instead that we are dissecting a very real social problem - a wart, if you will - that has popped up in a game we love. It's like if the water in a city is polluted, and we go to our favorite restaurant only to find the water has a rat floating in it. Yes, the blame is more with the city, but the restaurant could have filtered the crap out, and you bet we're going to be complaining to the manager as well as everyone else. <_<

So I should be compelled to stand against alll wrongs and go out fo my way to always the defend the postivie outlook on everything. This is supoosed to be a ME2 forum. I shouldn't be judged based on a converstaion about a game b/c that's very hypocritical. If someone is getting murdered and you don't prevent it, you're not a murderer.

But alas I should've expected bias. It's easier to call someone a racist then it to to try an understand the neutral side they're taking.

I think the problem is less that you are not taking a stand, but that you are arguing against other people taking a stand. If your stance was, "Hey, sorry bout that guys, not sure it will do much good, but good luck," then I don't think there'd be a problem. And you may claim that that WAS your stance. But it hasn't come through that way, I don't think... I think people are perceiving your argument as, "Hey, this is stupid and you are stupid for saying anything." Again, that's probably not what you are saying, just what it's coming off as. Perhaps just take a deep breath and come back with a friendly and cheerful outlook, and the conversation will be much more civil.

[ERJAK2]

Brahlis wrote...

SomeIdiotSaid...
You'r sig defeats every point made in that argument oh ye of obvious contradictions. 

That response has already been discussed at length earlier in the thread. Don't feel like copying and pasting my reply.

Nice try, though, champ.

If it's already been discussed than shut the **** up or change it, as long as it's there I don't care what your reasoning is, the argument you posted with that picture is completely invalidated. 

[Myrmedus]

ERJAK2 wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

SomeIdiotSaid...
You'r sig defeats every point made in that argument oh ye of obvious contradictions. 

That response has already been discussed at length earlier in the thread. Don't feel like copying and pasting my reply.

Nice try, though, champ.

If it's already been discussed than shut the **** up or change it, as long as it's there I don't care what your reasoning is, the argument you posted with that picture is completely invalidated. 

WTF am I missing something? Doesn't his sig just say "Support Tali for ME3"?

[DeathCultArm]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I think the problem is less that you are not taking a stand, but that you are arguing against other people taking a stand. If your stance was, "Hey, sorry bout that guys, not sure it will do much good, but good luck," then I don't think there'd be a problem. And you may claim that that WAS your stance. But it hasn't come through that way, I don't think... I think people are perceiving your argument as, "Hey, this is stupid and you are stupid for saying anything." Again, that's probably not what you are saying, just what it's coming off as. Perhaps just take a deep breath and come back with a friendly and cheerful outlook, and the conversation will be much more civil.

Is this not a forum? If everyone if the thread had the same opinion, what would be the point. I haven't insulted anyone and tried to keep it civil, as possible, yet i'm gett attacked b/c I have a different opinion, and then it's my fault. It doesn't matter if my opinion is differrent(it shouldn't) As lon as i'm respectful I have just as much right to voice my opinion as well.

[Kolaris8472]

Myrmedus wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

SomeIdiotSaid...
You'r sig defeats every point made in that argument oh ye of obvious contradictions. 

That response has already been discussed at length earlier in the thread. Don't feel like copying and pasting my reply.

Nice try, though, champ.

If it's already been discussed than shut the **** up or change it, as long as it's there I don't care what your reasoning is, the argument you posted with that picture is completely invalidated. 

WTF am I missing something? Doesn't his sig just say "Support Tali for ME3"?

Which implies that fan support means something to BioWare. 

Go to bed =P

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 08 février 2010 - 05:27 .

[Brahlis]

ERJAK2 wrote...
If it's already been discussed than shut the **** up or change it, as long as it's there I don't care what your reasoning is, the argument you posted with that picture is completely invalidated.

Now that certainly was uncalled for. You're being quite rude, sir and/or maddam.

Also, it's "then" not "than".

And no, my argument certainly isn't invalidated. You all are speaking on changing squadmates already defined characteristics to fit what you want. That's appalling. As I said previously in the thread, if they created new squad members for such things or had it be DLC only (not released in the vanilla game), then that's cool beans.

Unfortunately, it's always: "I want my femShep to be with Miranda! I want my femShep to be with Tali! I want my maleShep to be with Garrus! I want my maleShep to be with Thane! Blah, blah, blah."

Modifié par Brahlis, 08 février 2010 - 05:27 .

[UsagiVindaloo]

Myrmedus wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Cajeb wrote...

I don't personally mind the absence of M/M relationships, but I do think they should be included. However I think it should be an in character thing. It shouldn't be a completely straight character being gay in another playthrough. Either write in a bisexual relationship ala Zevran or write in an actually gay character. Not just a Kaiden or Jacob who mysteriously turns gay depending on dialogue options.

I've had a lot of time to think about the, "turning a straight character gay," thanks to lots of exposure to fanfiction and fandom in general (I prefer m/f relationships but have seen plenty of m/m). One common response to this that keeps coming up is... at what point did the characters indicate that they were 100%, absolutely cross my heart and hope to die straight? Yes, they have shown interest in women... but that doesn't mean they're exempt from showing interest in men as well. The Kinsey scale is, in fact, a scale, and it's perfectly possible for a man to show interest in women (lots of women!) while still potentially having feelings for another man (be it just in general, or for one particular man).

It's based on the dialogue options of the PC rather than the character in question. It builds a fairly obvious example of whether a character is 'romance-able' and therefore makes it feel like retcon to go back on that later on. Tali could've been argued to feel like this but she was young in ME1, as for Garrus he's probably the biggest offender.

Hmm... I get what you mean, but I think it could depend on how you were writing it. Tali is a good example... as you said, one could justify the sudden shift to LI as an age thing. Now, say that Kaiden was a male LI for maleShep in ME3. If it's done badly, it could indeed come over like a retcon, as you say. If handled well, however, it could be quite moving:

KAIDEN: I never got the chance to say sorry after Horizon, Commander. To be honest, I was... confused. About a lot of things. I did a lot of thinking while you were gone, and I found I actually missed you a lot more than I expected. A lot more. I'm... not usually the kind of guy who thinks about other men that way. I'm still not. But you, Shepard... I guess you're not exactly other men, are you?


...etc etc etc, only much better written... I'm a fangirl, not a Bioware writer, cut me some slack. Still, you get the drift  of how such a LI could be added without feeling like a retcon to Kaiden's character.

[ERJAK2]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Something to consider, however, is that there is active racism/prejudice and... I guess more passive? In other words, not standing up and taking a stand. That's a lot better than saying GRR I HATE BLACKS GAYS WOMEN ETC, but on the other hand, silence or acceptance will not always change the world. Sometimes it's good to say, "Hey, you know what, this isn't cool." 

I'm not sure I totally like the idea of calling the silently accepting type racists, homophobic, whatever... but at the same time, I wouldn't call them particularly progressive either, and I can sort of understand why people would call you a racist, because while you may not preach hatred, you don't stand up against it either.

Of course, you may do so in your own ways apart from the game. That's fine. But rather than writing us off as being too worked up over a game, think instead that we are dissecting a very real social problem - a wart, if you will - that has popped up in a game we love. It's like if the water in a city is polluted, and we go to our favorite restaurant only to find the water has a rat floating in it. Yes, the blame is more with the city, but the restaurant could have filtered the crap out, and you bet we're going to be complaining to the manager as well as everyone else. <_<

So I should be compelled to stand against alll wrongs and go out fo my way to always the defend the postivie outlook on everything. This is supoosed to be a ME2 forum. I shouldn't be judged based on a converstaion about a game b/c that's very hypocritical. If someone is getting murdered and you don't prevent it, you're not a murderer.

But alas I should've expected bias. It's easier to call someone a racist then it to to try an understand the neutral side they're taking.

I think the problem is less that you are not taking a stand, but that you are arguing against other people taking a stand. If your stance was, "Hey, sorry bout that guys, not sure it will do much good, but good luck," then I don't think there'd be a problem. And you may claim that that WAS your stance. But it hasn't come through that way, I don't think... I think people are perceiving your argument as, "Hey, this is stupid and you are stupid for saying anything." Again, that's probably not what you are saying, just what it's coming off as. Perhaps just take a deep breath and come back with a friendly and cheerful outlook, and the conversation will be much more civil.

To be fair to DealthCult arm, we are already disinclined to take anything he says in a less than hostile context after so long. So even if he did try that it's effectiveness would be limited to how determined he is to slog through the crap we throw his way in response the his MANY previous comments that were taken negatively.

[_000Darkstar]

DeathCultArm wrote...

So I should be compelled to stand against alll wrongs and go out fo my way to always the defend the postivie outlook on everything. This is supoosed to be a ME2 forum. I shouldn't be judged based on a converstaion about a game b/c that's very hypocritical. If someone is getting murdered and you don't prevent it, you're not a murderer.

True, it doesn't make you a murderer. Just an accessory to murder.

Modifié par _000Darkstar, 08 février 2010 - 05:31 .

[UsagiVindaloo]

DeathCultArm wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I think the problem is less that you are not taking a stand, but that you are arguing against other people taking a stand. If your stance was, "Hey, sorry bout that guys, not sure it will do much good, but good luck," then I don't think there'd be a problem. And you may claim that that WAS your stance. But it hasn't come through that way, I don't think... I think people are perceiving your argument as, "Hey, this is stupid and you are stupid for saying anything." Again, that's probably not what you are saying, just what it's coming off as. Perhaps just take a deep breath and come back with a friendly and cheerful outlook, and the conversation will be much more civil.

Is this not a forum? If everyone if the thread had the same opinion, what would be the point. I haven't insulted anyone and tried to keep it civil, as possible, yet i'm gett attacked b/c I have a different opinion, and then it's my fault. It doesn't matter if my opinion is differrent(it shouldn't) As lon as i'm respectful I have just as much right to voice my opinion as well.

Again, I think the problem is that, for whatever reason, you have been perceived as NOT being respectful and civil. Whether that's justified or not is your call. 

Also, while I do agree that different opinions are the spice of life, sadly this is one case where a difference of opinion causes pain and damage to a lot of people, hence why it's difficult to just say, "let's agree to disagree," even when it's sometimes the only way to diffuse the situation. While you are entitled to your opinion (which, I gather, is pretty much, "Bioware isn't going to do it, don't waste your breath, and don't make a big deal,") a gay gamer may feel that, in your opinion, his pain and his disappointment is meaningless, and thus feel angry.

In the end, the best way to approach this debate is with empathy and love for our fellow man (and woman!) It's perfectly fine to have different opinions, as you say, but it's also good to at least listen and understand people who have other opinions. It doesn't cost us any effort to show respect and say things like, "Hmm, you may have a good point, although..." or "I understand how you feel, but I still think..." You will note that I have done so in many of my responses. We can disagree while still affirming our respect for each other and our differences.

[ERJAK2]

Brahlis wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...
If it's already been discussed than shut the **** up or change it, as long as it's there I don't care what your reasoning is, the argument you posted with that picture is completely invalidated.

Now that certainly was uncalled for. You're being quite rude, sir and/or maddam.

Also, it's "then" not "than".

And no, my argument certainly isn't invalidated. You all are speaking on changing squadmates already defined characteristics to fit what you want. That's appalling. As I said previously in the thread, if they created new squad members for such things or had it be DLC only (not released in the vanilla game), then that's cool beans.

Unfortunately, it's always: "I want my femShep to be with Miranda! I want my femShep to be with Tali! I want my maleShep to be with Garrus! I want my maleShep to be with Thane! Blah, blah, blah."

Actually, I never once said that. I never even hinted that I wanted to change the current characters. I would certainly be open too it, but I have yet to ask. I want Kasumi to be a female romance option more than anything else. 

I don't care what character it is, I don't care if they release a new character, mod an old one whatever, as long as it happens.

Oh, when in ME1 did Garrus say he wanted to get in Femsheps pants? Because I think that the dialogue was the same for Mshep and Femshep and he only changed because people kept shouting I want Garrus for my femshep! That seems like changing an already defined squadmate to me.

[Snowraptor]

[quote]Mox Ruuga wrote...

Source?

Also, disappointing to read. How do they explain that FemShep can be a lesbian or a bisexual, then? Even if they tried to push her back in the closet in ME2, that genie was already out of the bottle in ME1.

I'm wondering if the change of lead writer between ME1 and ME2 had something to do with this, not merely EA (who had no problems with Zevran)...[/quote
Liara was asexual. would you prefer her species to look like a horses ass? Its not homosexual when its with a different species and one that is asexual, why not make a thread on having an asari that looks like a male, have it asexual and that cerberous built it because TIM was homosexual, and deep down loved blue colored men that looked like asari but escaped onto your ship, the end

[tausra]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

Cajeb wrote...

I don't personally mind the absence of M/M relationships, but I do think they should be included. However I think it should be an in character thing. It shouldn't be a completely straight character being gay in another playthrough. Either write in a bisexual relationship ala Zevran or write in an actually gay character. Not just a Kaiden or Jacob who mysteriously turns gay depending on dialogue options.

I've had a lot of time to think about the, "turning a straight character gay," thanks to lots of exposure to fanfiction and fandom in general (I prefer m/f relationships but have seen plenty of m/m). One common response to this that keeps coming up is... at what point did the characters indicate that they were 100%, absolutely cross my heart and hope to die straight? Yes, they have shown interest in women... but that doesn't mean they're exempt from showing interest in men as well. The Kinsey scale is, in fact, a scale, and it's perfectly possible for a man to show interest in women (lots of women!) while still potentially having feelings for another man (be it just in general, or for one particular man).

It's based on the dialogue options of the PC rather than the character in question. It builds a fairly obvious example of whether a character is 'romance-able' and therefore makes it feel like retcon to go back on that later on. Tali could've been argued to feel like this but she was young in ME1, as for Garrus he's probably the biggest offender.

Hmm... I get what you mean, but I think it could depend on how you were writing it. Tali is a good example... as you said, one could justify the sudden shift to LI as an age thing. Now, say that Kaiden was a male LI for maleShep in ME3. If it's done badly, it could indeed come over like a retcon, as you say. If handled well, however, it could be quite moving:

KAIDEN: I never got the chance to say sorry after Horizon, Commander. To be honest, I was... confused. About a lot of things. I did a lot of thinking while you were gone, and I found I actually missed you a lot more than I expected. A lot more. I'm... not usually the kind of guy who thinks about other men that way. I'm still not. But you, Shepard... I guess you're not exactly other men, are you?


...etc etc etc, only much better written... I'm a fangirl, not a Bioware writer, cut me some slack. Still, you get the drift  of how such a LI could be added without feeling like a retcon to Kaiden's character.

Sounds pretty close to how I could imagine them wording it. 

I said this in another thread but it bears repeating.  No one here knows 100% of the minds or history that is part of the NPC's.   For all we know Thane was completely gay before meeting his wife, Miranda likes other women but is afraid to admit it and Grunt has a huge crush on Garrus.  You don't know, you can't know and as such it isn't a retcon but a revelation of hidden desires and thoughts.

[Snowraptor]

[quote]Snowraptor wrote...

[quote]Mox Ruuga wrote...

Source?

Also, disappointing to read. How do they explain that FemShep can be a lesbian or a bisexual, then? Even if they tried to push her back in the closet in ME2, that genie was already out of the bottle in ME1.

I'm wondering if the change of lead writer between ME1 and ME2 had something to do with this, not merely EA (who had no problems with Zevran)...[/quote
Liara was asexual. would you prefer her species to look like a horses ass? Its not homosexual when its with a different species and one that is asexual, why not make a thread on having an asari that looks like a male, have it asexual and that cerberous built it because TIM was homosexual, and deep down loved blue colored men that looked like asari but escaped onto your ship, the end[/quote]
WHOOPS DIDNT mean to do that... here we go
Liara was asexual. would you prefer her species to look like a horses ass? Its not homosexual when its with a different species and one that is asexual, why not make a thread on having an asari that looks like a male, have it asexual and that cerberous built it because TIM was homosexual, and deep down loved blue colored men that looked like asari but escaped onto your ship, the end

[Myrmedus]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

SomeIdiotSaid...
You'r sig defeats every point made in that argument oh ye of obvious contradictions. 

That response has already been discussed at length earlier in the thread. Don't feel like copying and pasting my reply.

Nice try, though, champ.

If it's already been discussed than shut the **** up or change it, as long as it's there I don't care what your reasoning is, the argument you posted with that picture is completely invalidated. 

WTF am I missing something? Doesn't his sig just say "Support Tali for ME3"?

Which implies that fan support means something to BioWare. 

Go to bed =P

Oh yeah....

Hahaha, yeah I think I'll take your advice.
Night night.

[joejoe099]

Archereon wrote...

EA owns bioware now, that means no same sex relations anymore. They have to appeal to the largest possible audience, as its primary market is America, a nation where a large enough number of voters oppose gay marriage to keep it from happening, they have to appeal to their target audience.

but didnt EA own bioware for dragon age?

[ERJAK2]

[quote]Snowraptor wrote...

[quote]Snowraptor wrote...

[quote]Mox Ruuga wrote...

Source?

Also, disappointing to read. How do they explain that FemShep can be a lesbian or a bisexual, then? Even if they tried to push her back in the closet in ME2, that genie was already out of the bottle in ME1.

I'm wondering if the change of lead writer between ME1 and ME2 had something to do with this, not merely EA (who had no problems with Zevran)...[/quote
Liara was asexual. would you prefer her species to look like a horses ass? Its not homosexual when its with a different species and one that is asexual, why not make a thread on having an asari that looks like a male, have it asexual and that cerberous built it because TIM was homosexual, and deep down loved blue colored men that looked like asari but escaped onto your ship, the end[/quote]
WHOOPS DIDNT mean to do that... here we go
Liara was asexual. would you prefer her species to look like a horses ass? Its not homosexual when its with a different species and one that is asexual, why not make a thread on having an asari that looks like a male, have it asexual and that cerberous built it because TIM was homosexual, and deep down loved blue colored men that looked like asari but escaped onto your ship, the end[/quote]

ASARI ARE NOT ASEXUAL. IT IS SPECIFICALLY IN THE CODEX. "THE ASARI ARE NOT ASEXUAL." IT'S RIGHT THERE, MINUS THE MISINTERPRETATION THAT COULD COME FROM "THE ASARI ARE ALL FEMALE."

[Zoe Dedweth]

I'm starting to think it's a competition. Does not having a m/m romance option really afefct the story ? I' played through without romancing anybody and it didn't affect my storyline - how is the lack of m/m going to ruin things ? Maby sheps not gay - I mean bioware have shown they are not afraid to add gay romance, so maby gay romance just isn't part of their vision for shep. Hardly seems a trainsmash to me.

[UsagiVindaloo]

tausra wrote...


Sounds pretty close to how I could imagine them wording it. 

I said this in another thread but it bears repeating.  No one here knows 100% of the minds or history that is part of the NPC's.   For all we know Thane was completely gay before meeting his wife, Miranda likes other women but is afraid to admit it and Grunt has a huge crush on Garrus.  You don't know, you can't know and as such it isn't a retcon but a revelation of hidden desires and thoughts.

Quoting for truth. This was sort of my point earlier about how making a character bisexual isn't so much "changing" a character as opposed to revealing new depths to them. I do agree that now some things are a bit difficult to add now that BW went ahead as is (for example, I can understand how DLC making Garrus bisexual would seem a little random in that he could have already approached maleShep... why hasn't he?) At the same time, I have confidence in Bioware's writing ability as well as the talent of their voice cast (which I think goes a bit unnoticed... after all, they're the ones who will carry the bulk of the "chemistry" between characters).

Modifié par UsagiVindaloo, 08 février 2010 - 05:39 .

[thehistorysage]

To make some ridiculous claim of homophobia after Bioware produced the stereotype crushing relationships of Dragon Age: Origins is beyond insulting to the development team. Not every game they produce has to include all possible sexual liasons.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Zoe Dedweth wrote...

I'm starting to think it's a competition. Does not having a m/m romance option really afefct the story ? I' played through without romancing anybody and it didn't affect my storyline - how is the lack of m/m going to ruin things ? Maby sheps not gay - I mean bioware have shown they are not afraid to add gay romance, so maby gay romance just isn't part of their vision for shep. Hardly seems a trainsmash to me.

Ruin the game? No.
Affect the base story? No.
Improve the overall experience? You bet. Adding it offends no one (cause it's an option, not a forced romance) and benefits plenty.