968 réponses à ce sujet

[DeathCultArm]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

I think the problem is less that you are not taking a stand, but that you are arguing against other people taking a stand. If your stance was, "Hey, sorry bout that guys, not sure it will do much good, but good luck," then I don't think there'd be a problem. And you may claim that that WAS your stance. But it hasn't come through that way, I don't think... I think people are perceiving your argument as, "Hey, this is stupid and you are stupid for saying anything." Again, that's probably not what you are saying, just what it's coming off as. Perhaps just take a deep breath and come back with a friendly and cheerful outlook, and the conversation will be much more civil.

Is this not a forum? If everyone if the thread had the same opinion, what would be the point. I haven't insulted anyone and tried to keep it civil, as possible, yet i'm gett attacked b/c I have a different opinion, and then it's my fault. It doesn't matter if my opinion is differrent(it shouldn't) As lon as i'm respectful I have just as much right to voice my opinion as well.

Again, I think the problem is that, for whatever reason, you have been perceived as NOT being respectful and civil. Whether that's justified or not is your call. 

Also, while I do agree that different opinions are the spice of life, sadly this is one case where a difference of opinion causes pain and damage to a lot of people, hence why it's difficult to just say, "let's agree to disagree," even when it's sometimes the only way to diffuse the situation. While you are entitled to your opinion (which, I gather, is pretty much, "Bioware isn't going to do it, don't waste your breath, and don't make a big deal,") a gay gamer may feel that, in your opinion, his pain and his disappointment is meaningless, and thus feel angry.

In the end, the best way to approach this debate is with empathy and love for our fellow man (and woman!) It's perfectly fine to have different opinions, as you say, but it's also good to at least listen and understand people who have other opinions. It doesn't cost us any effort to show respect and say things like, "Hmm, you may have a good point, although..." or "I understand how you feel, but I still think..." You will note that I have done so in many of my responses. We can disagree while still affirming our respect for each other and our differences.

I don't even know what to say to that. You are right both about my opinion, and the boards on many account. But I feel for me to be that understanding an encouraging is shouldn't be required and unnecessary. Empathy shouldn't be needed in this debate, but it seems it is. I have listened and been respectful, yet few have really listen to be and instead have just been biased. And if no one will show me repsect, than I wouldn't bother to show them any either, so I will do everyone a favor and leave this topic

That being said I do appericate you being respectful and not biased, and if there were more posters like you there wouldn't be this problem.

[ERJAK2]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

tausra wrote...


Sounds pretty close to how I could imagine them wording it. 

I said this in another thread but it bears repeating.  No one here knows 100% of the minds or history that is part of the NPC's.   For all we know Thane was completely gay before meeting his wife, Miranda likes other women but is afraid to admit it and Grunt has a huge crush on Garrus.  You don't know, you can't know and as such it isn't a retcon but a revelation of hidden desires and thoughts.

Quoting for truth. This was sort of my point earlier about how making a character bisexual isn't so much "changing" a character as opposed to revealing new depths to them. I do agree that now some things are a bit difficult to add now that BW went ahead as is (for example, I can understand how DLC making Garrus bisexual would seem a little random in that he could have already approached maleShep... why hasn't he?) At the same time, I have confidence in Bioware's writing ability as well as the talent of their voice cast (which I think goes a bit unnoticed... after all, they're the ones who will carry the bulk of the "chemistry" between characters).

The only reason I haven't completely lost faith in Bioware as a social entity is the fact that that ridiculous B.S. quote that flies in the face of the entire point of Commander Shepard and the ME series as a whole, only applies to Maleshep/male romances.

[Brahlis]

ERJAK2 wrote...
Oh, when in ME1 did Garrus say he wanted to get in Femsheps pants? Because I think that the dialogue was the same for Mshep and Femshep and he only changed because people kept shouting I want Garrus for my femshep! That seems like changing an already defined squadmate to me.

I hate when people come in a thread late. I hate repeating myself.

Gah, I'm not wasting my time. If you want an aswer go back through the thread when someone else asked me the same thing. And then you can read my subsequent response that several people agreed with.

Anyway, that's all from me for the night. I'm sure this'll be closed in the morning. Too bad.

[UsagiVindaloo]

thehistorysage wrote...

To make some ridiculous claim of homophobia after Bioware produced the stereotype crushing relationships of Dragon Age: Origins is beyond insulting to the development team. Not every game they produce has to include all possible sexual liasons.

I get the impression that few people are accusing Bioware of actual homophobia. Arguably, however, they could be accused of caving to homophobic pressure from mainstream media and, possibly, its target demographic. 

As for not all games having all sexual liasons... while I see the point about not being able to romance everyone, a little flexibility would be nice. Speaking for myself, I was actually all set for either remaining faithful to Liara or seducing Thane until I found out Tali was also an option (and Thane wasn't); Miranda and Jack didn't really do much for me.

Also, something to consider about making everyone romanceable is that it allows for the players to act on their perception of chemistry. That is a very personal thing. For example, on my first playthrough of ME1, I was pretty sure that Tali was head over heels in love with me based on her voice acting, what she said, etc. Other players, however, didn't get that at all and thought it was a platonic relationship. Everyone sees different pairings based on their own personal perceptions. By allowing players to build on that chemistry they see, it lets them feel like they really are developing the love story that they see in their mind. So if you see Kaiden and maleShep's interaction and think, "Dude, I think they're almost flirting with each other!" then there's nothing stopping you from, well, taking it the extra step!

[UsagiVindaloo]

DeathCultArm wrote...



I don't even know what to say to that. You are right both about my opinion, and the boards on many account. But I feel for me to be that understanding an encouraging is shouldn't be required and unnecessary. Empathy shouldn't be needed in this debate, but it seems it is. I have listened and been respectful, yet few have really listen to be and instead have just been biased. And if no one will show me repsect, than I wouldn't bother to show them any either, so I will do everyone a favor and leave this topic

That being said I do appericate you being respectful and not biased, and if there were more posters like you there wouldn't be this problem.

Frankly, I am a bit of a freak and believe that EVERYONE should be that understanding and encouraging and empathic. Mostly because if a useless and worthless person like me can manage it, surely you fine folks can. 

I'll be honest, I hate anger and conflict, and while I do accept that everyone agreeing on everything would be very boring, I can't see why we can't all just be friends and disagree in a civil, friendly way. I also want a pony and a mansion and my own personal harem of Garrus, Kaiden and Thane, but that's neither here nor there. :innocent:

It seems that tempers are running high so perhaps stepping away from the thread isn't a bad idea (if nothing else you can go play ME2 instead). I can understand the frustration on both sides here... but being able to be respectful and kind even when you're not getting respect and kindness in turn is something good to work towards, I think. Just food for thought.

[Naltair]

I still will not support making every character bi, that just isn't how the world works, and makes the characters seem like sex bots and not actual people we love and hate.

[AM50]

To be honest, I agree with the Doctor's quote. It made a lot more sense in KOTOR, Dragon Age, etc because of the narrative view. I just think the same-sex romance doesn't fit in Mass Effect. I don't know... it just doesn't seem like it fits to me.

I also think them not including it has nothing to do "caving to pressure" to not include it. They had it in KOTOR, DA:O, Jade Empire. The media has nothing to do with it. The Dev and story team must have not thought it fit right.

Modifié par AM50, 08 février 2010 - 06:00 .

[ERJAK2]

For any personal attacks I've made to anyone but Brahlis(really don't like him) I apologize, that quote made me the most angry I've been since the weekend before release, and I'm not seeing the kind of outrage that it should have invoked. I see smug anti-samesex people crowing at their "victory" and same sex supporters arguing against them.



What I don't understand is, how we aren't universally enraged at what the rationalization is? The game is a third person narrative? Pre-defined character?! Not a wide open choice matrix?!!!?



WTH?! I don't know about you, but I thought Mass Effect was about creating your own Commander Shepard and using him/her to save the galaxy from the Reaper threat. If it was a Pre-defined character, why waste the resources making two genders, or a character creator, or classes, or the dialogue wheel?

[thehistorysage]

UsagiVindaloo wrote...

thehistorysage wrote...

To make some ridiculous claim of homophobia after Bioware produced the stereotype crushing relationships of Dragon Age: Origins is beyond insulting to the development team. Not every game they produce has to include all possible sexual liasons.

I get the impression that few people are accusing Bioware of actual homophobia. Arguably, however, they could be accused of caving to homophobic pressure from mainstream media and, possibly, its target demographic. 

As for not all games having all sexual liasons... while I see the point about not being able to romance everyone, a little flexibility would be nice. Speaking for myself, I was actually all set for either remaining faithful to Liara or seducing Thane until I found out Tali was also an option (and Thane wasn't); Miranda and Jack didn't really do much for me.

Also, something to consider about making everyone romanceable is that it allows for the players to act on their perception of chemistry. That is a very personal thing. For example, on my first playthrough of ME1, I was pretty sure that Tali was head over heels in love with me based on her voice acting, what she said, etc. Other players, however, didn't get that at all and thought it was a platonic relationship. Everyone sees different pairings based on their own personal perceptions. By allowing players to build on that chemistry they see, it lets them feel like they really are developing the love story that they see in their mind. So if you see Kaiden and maleShep's interaction and think, "Dude, I think they're almost flirting with each other!" then there's nothing stopping you from, well, taking it the extra step!

I respect your opinion, but I respectfully disagree as well. I think making every character bisexual caves the opposite way. Just as it's insulting to a gay person to claim they could be straight, so it is insulting to a straight person to claim they can gay. I enjoy defined characters. If they are entirely undefined you move into a sim game instead of an RPG. I thought it was awesome in Dragon Age that each Character had a defined sexuality, it made them more realistic. Zevran liked men, but it didn't matter how nice you were to Alistair he wasn't going to suddenly turn gay. Characters should mirror real people. Real people have defined sexualities. Turning a gay guy straight or a straight guy gay makes for bad character development.

[tausra]

Several pages back I asked why not 1 bisexual character for each Shepard. 2/6 or 1/3 which ever you prefer, doesn't seem too outlandish to me.

[AM50]

ERJAK2 wrote...

For any personal attacks I've made to anyone but Brahlis(really don't like him) I apologize, that quote made me the most angry I've been since the weekend before release, and I'm not seeing the kind of outrage that it should have invoked. I see smug anti-samesex people crowing at their "victory" and same sex supporters arguing against them.

What I don't understand is, how we aren't universally enraged at what the rationalization is? The game is a third person narrative? Pre-defined character?! Not a wide open choice matrix?!!!?

WTH?! I don't know about you, but I thought Mass Effect was about creating your own Commander Shepard and using him/her to save the galaxy from the Reaper threat. If it was a Pre-defined character, why waste the resources making two genders, or a character creator, or classes, or the dialogue wheel?

I agree with some of your points but I agree with the original quote. I just don't think it fits as well in Mass Effect. I think it comes down to quality as well. I would rather have no same-sex romance then the copy/paste romances for everyone in DA:O. Those were terrible.

If the designers don't put a same-sex option in, oh well. Same with Tali or Garrus or any other characters I loved in ME2. If they don't put them in then oh well. They must have thought it wouldn't add anything to the game. IMHO of course. This is the problem with the fanbase. Everyone wants a certain thing in the game but you can't appeal to everyone. Someone is going to get their toes stepped on/feelings hurt when certain things are not used in the game. You can lobby for it but that doesn't mean it will be in ME3. I would love to see Tali in ME3 but it won't be some heartbreaking/game-ruining loss for me if she doesn't. I mean, after all, its only a game.

[MatronAdena]

tausra wrote...

Several pages back I asked why not 1 bisexual character for each Shepard. 2/6 or 1/3 which ever you prefer, doesn't seem too outlandish to me.

This is where I've always sort of stood. I don't honestly feel it is right to force a change on a character thats just not them. ( but I stress this, AS A WRITER/ARTIST myself: ONLY the writers really know who is what for sure, when they have a character bluntly say " I do/don't sway that way" then you can say for sure)

That said I can think of 1, perhaps 2 exsisting characters who could still be open books in that manner, but Im not going to stress over changing them, I'd rather they just stay true to character. ( heh, sorta has a nice twist of the blade to fall head over heels in love with say Tali or garrus and know they are always going to be just out of reach no matter how close they are )

Intruducing someone specific for that is no big deal. I think it leaves things open for everyone, the only real killer there is how good, or poorly the character is written.

[ERJAK2]

ERJAK2 wrote...

For any personal attacks I've made to anyone but Brahlis(really don't like him) I apologize, that quote made me the most angry I've been since the weekend before release, and I'm not seeing the kind of outrage that it should have invoked. I see smug anti-samesex people crowing at their "victory" and same sex supporters arguing against them.

What I don't understand is, how we aren't universally enraged at what the rationalization is? The game is a third person narrative? Pre-defined character?! Not a wide open choice matrix?!!!?

WTH?! I don't know about you, but I thought Mass Effect was about creating your own Commander Shepard and using him/her to save the galaxy from the Reaper threat. If it was a Pre-defined character, why waste the resources making two genders, or a character creator, or classes, or the dialogue wheel?

And to compare it to Dragon Age?!! Dragon age didn't have a player character, it had text boxes that got superimposed over an expressionless face. Shepard is a first person Narrative, Dragon-age is a third person narrative.

It's insulting! Oh, you get to decide who your dragon age character is, but Shepard is the same no matter what! BULL S*** the only difference is that DAO dude/chick doesn't talk, and you actually play through their origin stories. If they had Shep escaping Mindoir and the Skylian Blitz as Levels(or whatever your prefered combination is), it'd be the same dam thing! There's even more options for your origin story in ME than there is in DAO!(9 different combinations of spacer, earthborn, colonist with Akuze, Elysium and Torfan.)

How stupid does Ray think we are!

[ERJAK2]

AM50 wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

For any personal attacks I've made to anyone but Brahlis(really don't like him) I apologize, that quote made me the most angry I've been since the weekend before release, and I'm not seeing the kind of outrage that it should have invoked. I see smug anti-samesex people crowing at their "victory" and same sex supporters arguing against them.

What I don't understand is, how we aren't universally enraged at what the rationalization is? The game is a third person narrative? Pre-defined character?! Not a wide open choice matrix?!!!?

WTH?! I don't know about you, but I thought Mass Effect was about creating your own Commander Shepard and using him/her to save the galaxy from the Reaper threat. If it was a Pre-defined character, why waste the resources making two genders, or a character creator, or classes, or the dialogue wheel?

I agree with some of your points but I agree with the original quote. I just don't think it fits as well in Mass Effect. I think it comes down to quality as well. I would rather have no same-sex romance then the copy/paste romances for everyone in DA:O. Those were terrible.

If the designers don't put a same-sex option in, oh well. Same with Tali or Garrus or any other characters I loved in ME2. If they don't put them in then oh well. They must have thought it wouldn't add anything to the game. IMHO of course. This is the problem with the fanbase. Everyone wants a certain thing in the game but you can't appeal to everyone. Someone is going to get their toes stepped on/feelings hurt when certain things are not used in the game. You can lobby for it but that doesn't mean it will be in ME3. I would love to see Tali in ME3 but it won't be some heartbreaking/game-ruining loss for me if she doesn't. I mean, after all, its only a game.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT SAME-SEX ROMANCE IN EITHER DIRECTION RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT!

I'm more angry about how blatantly Bioware is spitting in the face of everything this game was originally about. Let's assume that there was a sufficient number of same-sex romances and this question was about why they WERE available. I would be JUST as angry at the crap they're spewing. It's total bull.

[AM50]

ERJAK2 wrote...

I DON'T CARE ABOUT SAME-SEX ROMANCE IN EITHER DIRECTION RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT!

I'm more angry about how blatantly Bioware is spitting in the face of everything this game was originally about. Let's assume that there was a sufficient number of same-sex romances and this question was about why they WERE available. I would be JUST as angry at the crap they're spewing. It's total bull.

Well, honestly, what do you expect? He is being coy about it. It wouldn't be the first time a game creator or movie creator or music artist would be coy.... I don't like it either but that's what it is. He obviously has some reason/motive for not showing his hand.

[Cajeb]

It is a little insulting though this narrative crap. This isn't a shooter or an adventurer. Shepard is not pre-defined past a certain point. They gave us options for a reason and now all of a sudden it isn't like DA:O even though they are extremely similar in the options they offer?

[ERJAK2]

Cajeb wrote...

It is a little insulting though this narrative crap. This isn't a shooter or an adventurer. Shepard is not pre-defined past a certain point. They gave us options for a reason and now all of a sudden it isn't like DA:O even though they are extremely similar in the options they offer?

Thank you! This is exactly what I've been saying. I know he had to B.S. the answer to the question, but to do it like that? It makes me sick.

I'd rather him just say, "We at Bioware think homosexuality is a sin." At least that makes some degree of (warped) sense!

[AM50]

ERJAK2 wrote...

Cajeb wrote...

It is a little insulting though this narrative crap. This isn't a shooter or an adventurer. Shepard is not pre-defined past a certain point. They gave us options for a reason and now all of a sudden it isn't like DA:O even though they are extremely similar in the options they offer?

Thank you! This is exactly what I've been saying. I know he had to B.S. the answer to the question, but to do it like that? It makes me sick.

I'd rather him just say, "We at Bioware think homosexuality is a sin." At least that makes some degree of (warped) sense!

But he couldn't say that. Imagine the negative press Bioware would get for that. He probably is restricted to what he can and can't say. I hate how he is being coy about it but he may have to. Like I stated before, he probably has some motive/reason/excuse for not showing his hand.

[AM50]

ERJAK2 wrote...

Cajeb wrote...

It is a little insulting though this narrative crap. This isn't a shooter or an adventurer. Shepard is not pre-defined past a certain point. They gave us options for a reason and now all of a sudden it isn't like DA:O even though they are extremely similar in the options they offer?

Thank you! This is exactly what I've been saying. I know he had to B.S. the answer to the question, but to do it like that? It makes me sick.

I'd rather him just say, "We at Bioware think homosexuality is a sin." At least that makes some degree of (warped) sense!

And, he was answering in a vague professional manner. I would rather have a roundabout answer rather than "Yeah, we hate gays. So of course we wouldn't include a gay love scene." He still has to be professional about how he discusses his game. Even though his answer may be  garbage.

EDIT: Sorry for the DP

Modifié par AM50, 08 février 2010 - 07:00 .

[Lukertin]

ERJAK2 wrote...
WTH?! I don't know about you, but I thought Mass Effect was about creating your own Commander Shepard and using him/her to save the galaxy from the Reaper threat. If it was a Pre-defined character, why waste the resources making two genders, or a character creator, or classes, or the dialogue wheel?

Interesting that you mention the dialogue wheel, because I always viewed the dialogue wheel as sort of a "Director's tool" that lets you instruct Shepard what to do.  (This description was made for the first ME, the third-person narrative v. first-person narrative wasn't a recently invented argument).  ME is also the only game BW has produced where the player's character is fully voice-acted, if I recall correctly.  I think the distinctions are there, and a lot of the reasoning behind the differences were explained by the devs at least since a year ago, when people were complaining about why DA:O didn't have a dialogue wheel, or why there was no VA for the player character.

[Monstruo696]

ERJAK2 wrote...

Cajeb wrote...

It is a little insulting though this narrative crap. This isn't a shooter or an adventurer. Shepard is not pre-defined past a certain point. They gave us options for a reason and now all of a sudden it isn't like DA:O even though they are extremely similar in the options they offer?

Thank you! This is exactly what I've been saying. I know he had to B.S. the answer to the question, but to do it like that? It makes me sick.

I'd rather him just say, "We at Bioware think homosexuality is a sin." At least that makes some degree of (warped) sense!

Pretty much every other Bioware game has had some form of ******/bisexual romance option.  Because they don't add it in ONE game suddenly they're homophobes?  

Get over yourself.

[Mallissin]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Hmm, interesting response since it doesn't really address the interpretation that Female Shephard's can have "lesbian" relationships in ME1. Almost sounds like a marketing response, though I could agree with it in theory.

How's it lesbian? Asari are "monosexual", so at best it's bi-sexual, but for both femshep AND maleshep since each Asari is really both genders.

[Rankao]

Yes because my Shepard needs to be sleezy like Zevren and willing to sleep with anything. I wouldn't mind it if it was part of male shep from the start, but adding it in near the end just seems to be meh to me.

[Vaeliorin]

I haven't read the whole thread, but as to the whole "no changing already existing characters" etc., etc., given how monumentally awesome Shepard supposedly is (seriously, no one else could have defeated the collectors? At least there's some argument as to why it had to be Shep in ME1, though that's mostly coincidence) it's entirely possible that any of the characters could put Shep in the "If It's You, It's Okay" category.

[AM50]

Monstruo696 wrote...

ERJAK2 wrote...

Cajeb wrote...

It is a little insulting though this narrative crap. This isn't a shooter or an adventurer. Shepard is not pre-defined past a certain point. They gave us options for a reason and now all of a sudden it isn't like DA:O even though they are extremely similar in the options they offer?

Thank you! This is exactly what I've been saying. I know he had to B.S. the answer to the question, but to do it like that? It makes me sick.

I'd rather him just say, "We at Bioware think homosexuality is a sin." At least that makes some degree of (warped) sense!

Pretty much every other Bioware game has had some form of ******/bisexual romance option.  Because they don't add it in ONE game suddenly they're homophobes?  

Get over yourself.

I would have stated it a little more tactfully but I agree with you completely.

Rankao wrote...

Yes because my Shepard needs to be sleezy
like Zevren and willing to sleep with anything. I wouldn't mind it if
it was part of male shep from the start, but adding it in near the end
just seems to be meh to me.

And I agree with this as well. It would seem corny and tacked on. Like all of the sudden, after 2 full games, Shep is all of the sudden a homosexual? That seems stupid and more of a fan service then innovative story telling.