968 réponses à ce sujet

[caynes]

Zafezase wrote...

Because, in our SOCIETY, gay relations (Mainly M/M), are frowned upon. Like I said earlier: Blame our parents/grandparents. They rule our politics, which in turn, affects our society.

I could care less about having the options in the game. It's just that they AREN'T.

which is the point in my argument that being the next generation we have a responsiblity to speak up about this stuff and change things, im sure glad everyone isnt liek you or else i would be a slave lol

[caynes]

Naltair wrote...

caynes wrote...

Naltair wrote...

You can't read then, I mean going back and retconning people just for some silly little DLC expand the role make it more significant in the next game or make a new character so we have all new content. Seriously.

 again why ppl think yur against same sex relationships, why is it silly, this kind of stuff really matters to ppl, it would be like allowing, white, black, brown shepard, but no asian shepard

You are nitpicking I am not calling the same sex relationships silly i am calling making a DLC that adds no new art assets, or content and adds what 5-6 minutes of dialog to a current character silly.  Make a new character or characters new art assets, environments, story, and stuff like that and everyone wins.

Seems like you are just looking for a fight.

oo sorry if i seem that way(looking for a fight) honestly yur an interesting person to argue with lol but im looking for no fight what so ever, i was just saying that your choice of words are obviously not as clear to others as they are to you if your sending accross the message that u are prejudice or homophobic

[DaeJi]

Brahlis wrote...

So a female squad-mate can't find develop for your male character? And your male squadmate can't develop feelings for your female character? Even when inter-species relationships have been shown in Mass Effect already outside of your crew?

Once again: LOL @ your argument.

Sexual orientation and feelings for a crew member are not the same thing. If you can't comprehend that, then I don't know what to tell you.

Your argument was that altering a character's dynamics to appeal to a small, vocal group was the wrong thing to do. I just listed two characters where BioWare did just that. Please try to counter that.

[Kilmiina]

Ray's comments are a bit weak. If he wanted to say, "Our male Shepard isn't gay." then he should have and leave it at that.

However, if you want to fantasize about your Shepard being gay, do it. There's nothing in the game mechanics or story that prevents him from being gay. Pining in your cabin `for Jacob or Garrus is all fine and dandy, but you'll just accept the fact that your male squad members don't swing that way.

Now, man the **** up, take a cold shower and go save the galaxy!

Modifié par Kilmiina, 07 février 2010 - 07:41 .

[Peturd07]

Look, this is Bioware's IP. They can do what they want to do with it. After the trilogy there will likely be other games set in this universe where you aren't shepard, and by then the constant complaining will likely lead to them allowing the options for you character to be gay. Until then, buck up people. They misread their mark on a few characters and options, and there's only so much they can do to fix it in this series while staying true to their previous conceptions of Shepard (see Tali and Garrus). So wait for another game. You'll likely get to choose your race, and sexual orientation next time we romp around the milky way galaxy after the end of ME3.

[Naltair]

Both Tali and Garrus can be looked at as a precedent that fan support can make their roles more "significant" but that does not mean that the potential for such relationships may not have already been there to begin with. I think it was a combo of strong characters, fan support, and the fact that past experience could provide a suitable story reason for a romance to begin.



I mean I feel bad for Wrex fans that wanted the option... but it seems to make the most sense with these two given that they could not die and both had a relationship that could sedge-way into romance, Tali was young and going through right of passage while Garrus was going through a time of his life of great change and working with someone he looked up and respected.



But I am getting away from the point the issue here is the apparent hypocrisy about same sex relationships.

[Zafezase]

Kilmiina wrote...

Ray's comments are a bit weak. If If you want to fantasize about your Shepard being gay, do it. There's nothing in the game mechanics or story that prevents him from being gay. Pining in your cabin `for Jacob or Garrus is all fine and dandy, but you'll just accept the fact that your male squad members don't swing that way. Now, man the **** up, take a cold shower and stop those Reapers!

This.

[caynes]

Internet Kraken wrote...

caynes wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

I don't quite understand why this is such a big deal.

BioWare doesn't want to write a m/m romance. So why is there all this fussing over it? Is it just because there can be f/f romances? I don't get it.

the fuss is about inclusion, bioware cant claim to make a character of your making if you cant make disissions in order to represent yourself, they did say u can mold shepard to your liking, if you cant do that then its a lie

That's it? I know this is a role-playing game but I think it's understandable that certain role-playing options won't be avaliable. I understand this, and I accept it. If BioWare doesn't want to make that an option, I'm not going to deamnd it from them. They would probably just shoehorn it in to please the fans. I'd rather them make no m/m subplot then a bad one.

I'm not trying to suggest that it's wrong to make suggestions. Mass Effect 2 is a lot better than the first becuase of these suggestions. But if BioWare is vocal about their stance on this issue, then I think it might be in everyone's best interest to let it go.

well inclussion is very important, imagin if they allowed a black, white, brown shepard but not asian shepard
there would be a fuss the fact is that a group(male gays) is excluded complete and constantly in our society and it should stop

Modifié par caynes, 07 février 2010 - 07:41 .

[caynes]

stop*

[Brahlis]

DaeJi wrote...
Your argument was that altering a character's dynamics to appeal to a small, vocal group was the wrong thing to do. I just listed two characters where BioWare did just that. Please try to counter that.

I can counter it damn easy.

Just because those characters never actively showed Shepard romantic feelings doesn't mean that they couldn't have developed them. It happens all the time in a thing called "life".

Additonally, Shepard is actively shown to be straight in the relationship options you are presented with in both the games (with the very small exception being the "reproduce with anything" Asari with femshep IF you have to count that). That INCLUDES the romance options (squadmates) of the two games since they're presented as straight.

Sexual orientation is something you're born with, not something you just sit there and decide one day, "Oh yeah, I like same sex now."

Refer to Naltair's posts for further explanation if you still can't wrap your tiny mind around it.

Modifié par Brahlis, 07 février 2010 - 07:43 .

[caynes]

Kilmiina wrote...

Ray's comments are a bit weak. If he wanted to say, "Our male Shepard isn't gay." then he should have and leave it at that.

However, if you want to fantasize about your Shepard being gay, do it. There's nothing in the game mechanics or story that prevents him from being gay. Pining in your cabin `for Jacob or Garrus is all fine and dandy, but you'll just accept the fact that your male squad members don't swing that way.

Now, man the **** up, take a cold shower and go save the galaxy!

lmao funny but you seem ignorant

[Naltair]

caynes wrote...
well inclussion is very important, imagin if they allowed a black, white, brown shepard but not asian shepard
there would be a fuss the fact is that a group(male gays) is excluded complete and constantly in our society and it should stop

I think one is a cosmetic choice an obvious one that they tried to cover another is a lifestyle choice, very different context.  I see where you are going with the argument though, and I am not against the inclusion, personally the way I see it they should add a male teammate that is bisexual, and see what happens.

Female + female Shepard fans may not like it but if they are as supportive of same sex relationships as they say they are they should be on board.

[tmp7704]

Naltair wrote...

You are nitpicking I am not calling the same sex relationships silly i am calling making a DLC that adds no new art assets, or content and adds what 5-6 minutes of dialog to a current character silly. 

I won't disagree with that, but i believe this has very little if anything with the topic of this particular thread. The OP quote isn't about retconning existing characters, it's a statement from head developer why Shepard isn't likely to get any future m/m relationship. That'd mean also (and primarily) no new NPC characters compatible with this option.

[Internet Kraken]

caynes wrote...


well inclussion is very important, imagin if they allowed a black, white, brown shepard but not asian shepard
there would be a fuss the fact is that a group(male gays) is excluded complete and constantly in our society and it should stop

Changing your race in the game is just a matter of adjusting some options in the face editor. It doesn't create additional dialogue or alter the game in any significant way. Unlike a romance subplot, which has a fairly large amount of dialogue and does change the game in a siginifcant way, Comparing the two isn't really accurate, as the former is far easier to implement.

I don't see why someone should feel excluded just becuase there isn't a romanceable character who follows their sexual oritentation.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 07 février 2010 - 07:45 .

[caynes]

Brahlis wrote...

DaeJi wrote...
Your argument was that altering a character's dynamics to appeal to a small, vocal group was the wrong thing to do. I just listed two characters where BioWare did just that. Please try to counter that.

I can counter it damn easy.

Just because those characters never actively showed Shepard romantic feelings doesn't mean that they couldn't have developed them. It happens all the time in a thing called "life".

Additonally, Shepard is actively shown to be straight in the relationship options you are presented with in both the games (with the very small exception being the "reproduce with anything" Asari with femshep IF you have to count that). That INCLUDES the romance options (squadmates) of the two games since they're presented as straight.

Sexual orientation is something you're born with, not something you just sit there and decide one day, "Oh yeah, I like same sex now."

Refer to Naltair's posts for further explanation if you still can't wrap your tiny mind around it.

thats an on going debate but whether or not your are born with it or it develops the fact is you dont have a choice whether or not you are, and u should not be dicriminated against for something out of your control(unless you are a danger to society)

Modifié par caynes, 07 février 2010 - 07:45 .

[DaeJi]

Brahlis wrote...
Sexual orientation is something you're born with, not something you just sit there and decide one day, "Oh yeah, I like same sex now."

Garrus flat out says that he doesn't find humans attractive, just Shepard. So it's okay for one species to decide, just this one time, to love another species but it's not okay for one gender to decide, just this once, to love the same gender?

[Lord Atlia]

Why? Why? Why did Tali come up in this tread. No matter where you go Tali love or hate follows you. The one thing I know for certain is the next time I resurrect a galactic hero for a suicide mission I will put a homosexual of the same gender on his/her crew you know just in case (s)he swings that way. Bioware has made it the norm to have f/f options and recently m/m options that doesn't mean they have to include these options. Something I've come to realize trolling and occasionally responding to these threads since the "Bioware, it's 2010" days is that a lot of homosexuals don't want a option they want all the options, they want to go the Fable route and just remove the gender flags, which takes away from are crew mates realism and integrity. Maybe a crew member is a gay male in ME3 then cool, but I don't want Garrus, Thane, and Jacob to all become gay overnight because then the total count of characters Shepard can't socialize with for fear of sending the wrong message goes to 5.

Modifié par Lord Atlia, 07 février 2010 - 07:57 .

[caynes]

DaeJi wrote...

Brahlis wrote...
Sexual orientation is something you're born with, not something you just sit there and decide one day, "Oh yeah, I like same sex now."

Garrus flat out says that he doesn't find humans attractive, just Shepard. So it's okay for one species to decide, just this one time, to love another species but it's not okay for one gender to decide, just this once, to love the same gender?

well if it was just once and never again i wouldnt call that person homosexual, i mean lots of ppl "experiment" doesnt mean they are homosexual

[Kolaris8472]

Brahlis wrote...

DaeJi wrote...
Your argument was that altering a character's dynamics to appeal to a small, vocal group was the wrong thing to do. I just listed two characters where BioWare did just that. Please try to counter that.

I can counter it damn easy.

Just because those characters never actively showed Shepard romantic feelings doesn't mean that they couldn't have developed them. It happens all the time in a thing called "life".

Additonally, Shepard is actively shown to be straight in the relationship options you are presented with in both the games (with the very small exception being the "reproduce with anything" Asari with femshep IF you have to count that). That INCLUDES the romance options (squadmates) of the two games since they're presented as straight.

Sexual orientation is something you're born with, not something you just sit there and decide one day, "Oh yeah, I like same sex now."

Refer to Naltair's posts for further explanation if you still can't wrap your tiny mind around it.

Your entire argument hinges around the assumption that once you've had a relationship with men/women you'll always have relationships with men/women. This is not the case. It would require only as much "retconning" as the Tali/Garrus change. 

[Naltair]

tmp7704 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

You are nitpicking I am not calling the same sex relationships silly i am calling making a DLC that adds no new art assets, or content and adds what 5-6 minutes of dialog to a current character silly. 

I won't disagree with that, but i believe this has very little if anything with the topic of this particular thread. The OP quote isn't about retconning existing characters, it's a statement from head developer why Shepard isn't likely to get any future m/m relationship. That'd mean also (and primarily) no new NPC characters compatible with this option.

Oh I agree, I was not trying to derail, if this comment means anything it means that we should not hold our breath for expanded same-sex relationship content.

[Brahlis]

DaeJi wrote...
Garrus flat out says that he doesn't find humans attractive, just Shepard. So it's okay for one species to decide, just this one time, to love another species but it's not okay for one gender to decide, just this once, to love the same gender?

Like I said, if they added a new squadmate that had that orientation then I don't care at all. But I'm 100% against changing current character's aspects just for that. It makes the whole thing ridiculously cheap.

[UsagiVindaloo]

Brahlis wrote...

And I garuntee you that more than half of the people wanting same-sex stuff aren't even homosexual themselves, which makes it even worse. Almost as bad as the people that play FemShep for the pure reason that it's "better to look at.".

Wait, how is the idea of straight people wanting a same-sex romance bad in any way? Some of them might just be interested in certain character dynamics (hey, I saw some pretty good chemistry between my male Shep and Wrex in the first game... ;-)). Some of them may just want more equal opportunity for both genders of characters. And some may be sympathetic with gay gamers who want a character they can identify a little more with. There are PLENTY of reasons a straight person might support a same-sex relationship in ME. And that's *fine*. More the merrier, I say.

Several thoughts I have on this:

1) Bioware should have just gone the route of having love interests PERIOD and allowed the same interactions with them regardless of your gender. Bam, done. Then whoever is interested in whichever character can romance that character however they want. Male Shepard and Garrus? Sure. FemShep and Miranda? Why not? Just keep the scripts the same (or somewhat similar) and we're golden.

2) Including gay options for Shepard (male or female) hurts absolutely no one and nothing. It doesn't hurt the story, it doesn't hurt people who want m/f, it doesn't hurt the character, etc. The reason? Because you always, ALWAYS have the option of saying to a love interest, "Sorry, I'm not interested." So for people who don't want gay Shepard, you don't have to have a gay Shepard. No one is forcing you, and there's nothing uncomfortable that you have to deal with.

3) In regards to whether Shepard's personality is changed by making him gay/bi... I don't buy it myself, but I admit that part of the problem is that we do not know how humanity views homosexuality by this point in the ME universe. I always sort of assumed it was like Star Trek where it was a total non-issue (there's an episode of DS9 where an f/f pairing arises and the gender is never commented on). If that's the case, allowing Shep to be gay or bi shouldn't be an issue because there's no baggage to go with it (and thus, I'd just have the LI scripts be identical between male and female). However, if the Alliance still has modern prejudices etc. about being gay, the military, etc, I acknowledge that Shepard's sexuality *would* be an issue in the sense that he'd probably have to come to terms with it... the dialog options would have to address it (e.g. "I've never really felt this way about a man before...")

[tmp7704]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Changing your race in the game is just a matter of adjusting some options in the face editor. It doesn't create additional dialogue or alter the game in any significant way. Unlike a romance subplot, which has a fairly large amount of dialogue and does change the game in a siginifcant way, Comparing the two isn't really accurate, as the former is far easier to implement.

Changing your gender means tons of extra dialogue, practically doubling the workload. But they still allow the player to do it. Compared to that a few extra sentences (since most 'romances' get resolved in 2-3 conversations and most of dialogue can be reused) that'd need to be recorded, it's peanuts.

Modifié par tmp7704, 07 février 2010 - 07:50 .

[caynes]

Internet Kraken wrote...

caynes wrote...


well inclussion is very important, imagin if they allowed a black, white, brown shepard but not asian shepard
there would be a fuss the fact is that a group(male gays) is excluded complete and constantly in our society and it should stop

Changing your race in the game is just a matter of adjusting some options in the face editor. It doesn't create additional dialogue or alter the game in any significant way. Unlike a romance subplot, which has a fairly large amount of dialogue and does change the game in a siginifcant way, Comparing the two isn't really accurate, as the former is far easier to implement.

I don't see why someone should feel excluded just becuase there isn't a romanceable character who follows their sexual oritentation.

very true but that makes my agrument stronger, because race doesnt even affect the main plot, yet bioware made it a must to allow every single one, why? because they know the backlash from society will be strong if they dont, yet something that so many ppl use to define themselves(sexual orientation)  isnt an option? but i see no public backlash? why? prejudice, and discrimination.  im not homosexual so i can make a shepard like me but gays cant, thats a problem

Modifié par caynes, 07 février 2010 - 07:53 .

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Brahlis wrote...
Sexual orientation is something you're born with, not something you just sit there and decide one day, "Oh yeah, I like same sex now."

Garrus flat out says that he doesn't find humans attractive, just Shepard. So it's okay for one species to decide, just this one time, to love another species but it's not okay for one gender to decide, just this once, to love the same gender?

This is an interesting statement and there are valid arguments for both sides.  You sort of go from video game into social experiment/commentary territory there.  Some people like the idea that you choice others like the idea that you have a natural inclination one way or the other.  I am not sure which is more right or wrong.

I will say that what Garrus says can be implied that his admiration and attraction goes beyond who Shepard is physically but more to what she represents to him.  She is still feminine which is something that he wants, he wants her feminine energy despite her being human.  It is a quality about her specifically that makes him want to try this.

To say that this means he should be able to make the gender jump as easily is sort of fallacious, it may just be that no matter how awesome and cool another male is he just won;t make that jump.  But that is one view of it.