214 réponses à ce sujet

[I Pyrrhus I]

Let me start by saying that this thread is not intended to be another debate on whether or not  these romance options should be included in the game. What I want out of this thread is to determine the support or opposition of this compromise from each side of the debate. Also this suggestion is aimed more at ME3 because I do anicipate (or desire) a post-release change.

That said, this is my proposition:

The base game is without same/sex romance options, players will have no fear of inadvertantly encountering such options "AND" character interactions will not insinuate that such options even exist through body language or tone of voice. However, in the options menu there will be an option to enable same/sex romances. This option will be off by default to allow those who wish to avoid such things, to do so without having to worry about it at all. Should the option be enabled, there will be the inclusion of character interactions that satisfy the criteria of those who support same/sex romances.

The reason that I recommend "off by default" is that I believe this to be a greater concession by the opposition. I also do not believe that this imposes upon the same/sex supporters because in reality this is no different than a gender selection option. Having the default favor the majority is logical rather than discriminatory.

*Edit*
There is also a suggestion that romances be toggled (by individual NPC) in options rather than orientation. Not my first choice of alternatives personally, but a reasonable alternative none-the-less.
*Edit*

Please refrain from posting pro-same/sex or anti-same/sex politics in this thread, and instead post which side of the fence you are on and why you do (or don't) support this compromise.

I'll start:
I am from the opposition to same/sex romances perspective. I support this compromise because, despite having my way currently, there is no gaurantee that it will stay that way. Rather than risk losing outright in the future, I prefer a solution that may appease same/sex supporters while at the same time, not forcing their perspective upon me and those who share my perspective. Furthermore, such a compromise may further my goal by allowing for characters in question to be "fully straight" rather than ambiguous in the default game.

Modifié par I Pyrrhus I, 08 février 2010 - 03:28 .

[lost lupus]

well apart from a few people i think the only reason people are against it

is that it now goes against cannon (atleast for M/M) as shep is clearly straight



i see this debate no different then any other "Breaks Cannon" thread obiviously it means alot more to other people (on both sides) i understand that and i dont mean to offend anyone (but i probbly will)



personally i dont give a damn if they have same sex romance or not its a non facter for me

put it in as long as they dont tie it into an achevement i dont care



i cannot believe that this debate is even happening those that a deadset against it because the relationship is gay get over yourselves its queers are out an about it happens no biggy

those that are absolutely outraged that its not in the game step back and think about your own mind set you can not enjoy a fictional romance of your shepard because the romance is straight

it just proves your as narrow minded and set in your ways as those deadset against it nethier group has any moral high ground

[DaeJi]

I wouldn't mind it. It would allow those of us who want it to access it, while not... "forcing" those who dislike it to put up with it.

[I Pyrrhus I]

Edit:

Spoke to soon, thought the suggestion had been missed.

Modifié par I Pyrrhus I, 07 février 2010 - 07:38 .

[Russalka]

You do realise this will become a drama/flamefest regardless of what you say or do?

[I Pyrrhus I]

Russalka wrote...

You do realise this will become a drama/flamefest regardless of what you say or do?

Realisticly, you are probably right (if it gets any attention at all), although I thought that preemption on the matter couldn't hurt.

[Console Cowboy]

i am not strictly against the idea, but i don't think it's necessary. such a thing can be handled subtly enough that you wouldn't even know it was there without pursuing it (see: Jade Empire).

[Heebejeebes]

I wrote on another thread that I believe Shepard needs to maleable. Saying that anything about Shepard is Canon or Non-Canon is silly because Shepard is whatever the player wants him or her to be. However, if they were to give Shepard a gaymance they should not disrupt the story by changing the values of established team mates. They should make a new team mate for ME3 or through DLC. If your view of Shepard is that he is straight, then when this new team mate hits on you you can say something to the degree of "your barking up the wrong tree." Now, this is Bioware's game and im not saying that there MUST be the option for Man on Man relationships, only that I do not believe it will break the story if one were to be established.

[wikkedjoker]

I like your idea, and suggested something along that line.



The thing is, really I don't get the point. I mean why is this such a big deal, I come here to see if any leaked info has been released, or if the deves have said anything about DLC. Not to see pages of sex.



I know, I know welcome to the internet.



It blows my mind the leap people are taking here. Just because YOUR male Shep is gay, does not mean that every other man on the ship is gay. Logic just dictates that finding a M/F relationship would be easier than a M/M or F/F. Even if gay's are more accepted in society than they were 5-10 years ago, the ratio of gay to straight is like 1 gay for every 20 straight, if not higher. I'm not gay bashing or anything like that, I'm just pointing out reality.



I would be all for it, if they could do it in the story and its not just being done to be done.

[wikkedjoker]

Heebejeebes wrote...

I wrote on another thread that I believe Shepard needs to maleable. Saying that anything about Shepard is Canon or Non-Canon is silly because Shepard is whatever the player wants him or her to be. However, if they were to give Shepard a gaymance they should not disrupt the story by changing the values of established team mates. They should make a new team mate for ME3 or through DLC. If your view of Shepard is that he is straight, then when this new team mate hits on you you can say something to the degree of "your barking up the wrong tree." Now, this is Bioware's game and im not saying that there MUST be the option for Man on Man relationships, only that I do not believe it will break the story if one were to be established.

I think the game establishes too much of Shep for you to say that. There is the Good Shep, the bad Shep, and the meh Shep. We just see what we want to see.

[I Pyrrhus I]

Console Cowboy wrote...

i am not strictly against the idea, but i don't think it's necessary. such a thing can be handled subtly enough that you wouldn't even know it was there without pursuing it (see: Jade Empire).

But wouldn't you agree that there is value to be had from making a conscession to our perspective if we are willing to make a conscession to yours. In much the same way as you would like the freedom to pursue such romanances, we would like the freedom to pursue dialog with characters without being subject to unsolicated gay insinuations by those characters.

The compromise is no more an inconvience to you than selecting your gender, while we are free from having ideals with which we don't agree forced upon us.

[diskoh]

I think an even easier way to deal with it is to have all dialogue leading to romance to be marked, much the same way the persuasion dialogue is. Make it green, perhaps.



That way if you're talking to Jacob and see green dialogue, you know that you should absolutely not select it if you don't want to follow a romance path. There will be no 'accidental' flirting like I ran into trying to talk to males with my gay female Shepard.

[hycer]

or add "sexuality" as an option when customizing the character at the beginning.

[Heebejeebes]

wikkedjoker wrote...

Heebejeebes wrote...

I wrote on another thread that I believe Shepard needs to maleable. Saying that anything about Shepard is Canon or Non-Canon is silly because Shepard is whatever the player wants him or her to be. However, if they were to give Shepard a gaymance they should not disrupt the story by changing the values of established team mates. They should make a new team mate for ME3 or through DLC. If your view of Shepard is that he is straight, then when this new team mate hits on you you can say something to the degree of "your barking up the wrong tree." Now, this is Bioware's game and im not saying that there MUST be the option for Man on Man relationships, only that I do not believe it will break the story if one were to be established.

I think the game establishes too much of Shep for you to say that. There is the Good Shep, the bad Shep, and the meh Shep. We just see what we want to see.

Ive made 4 differant Paragon Shepards and 2 differant Renegade Shepards. Each played through the game differantly. Before you click NEW GAME you can decide on some core values for Shepard and you'll be able to play by those values whether or not your Paragon or Renegade.

If one of your Shepards is relegious and one isn't for example:

The religious one would: Pay for the Preeching Hanar's evangelical license, Return the Body of Nirali Batia to her husband, Tell Ashley you believe in God.

The non religious one would: Tell the hanar to get lost (charm or intimidate,) Convice Samesh to give his wife's body to science, get weirded out by Ashley's faith or disagree with it.

There are tons of "inbetween" Shepards, as you can do what I just did with a large number of core values. Shepard is very very maleable

[Arik7]

diskoh wrote...

I think an even easier way to deal with it is to have all dialogue leading to romance to be marked, much the same way the persuasion dialogue is. Make it green, perhaps.

That way if you're talking to Jacob and see green dialogue, you know that you should absolutely not select it if you don't want to follow a romance path. There will be no 'accidental' flirting like I ran into trying to talk to males with my gay female Shepard.

This sounds like a good idea.  perhaps the options could have a symbol besides them for clarity.  Paragon options would have the wings, renegade the star, and perhaps a heart icon for romance.
This would also allow those non-interested in hetero romance to not be a total jerk towards the characters.

Modifié par Arik7, 07 février 2010 - 08:32 .

[PyroFreak301]

I don't like the idea of an options menu toggle, a personality choice like that should never be set on an options menu, it would break immersion more than any awkward conversation.

People have pretty much covered every point that would need to be covered to make everyone a winner.

• A male/male romantic interest should involve new characters as dynamics have already been well established with existing crew members.
• Any male/male romance would have to be initiated by Shepard, and it should be subtle so the only people that go looking for M/M romance will experience the dialoge. This means crew members will not so much as insinuate they are interested in Shepard without him saying something first.

People who dont want to see it wont see it. Those that want to see it get to see it. Everybody wins.

[I Pyrrhus I]

diskoh wrote...

I think an even easier way to deal with it is to have all dialogue leading to romance to be marked, much the same way the persuasion dialogue is. Make it green, perhaps.

That way if you're talking to Jacob and see green dialogue, you know that you should absolutely not select it if you don't want to follow a romance path. There will be no 'accidental' flirting like I ran into trying to talk to males with my gay female Shepard.

I feel that the difference between this approach and my own is that instead of entirely getting your way, you also allow the opposition to have some measure of success in our own desires.

I don't see the need to force the option upon us at all, no I'm not worried about accidently selecting it, I just don't want to sacrifice my own immersion and ideals by being offered that option.

"Off by default" is a small scrafice for your perspective (add same/sex romances), compared to the much larger sacrifice of our perspective (no same/sex romances).

Why must it be pushed further, where we (the majority) are not afforded the luxury of a no-same/sex romance gaming experience?

[I Pyrrhus I]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

I don't like the idea of an options menu toggle, a personality choice like that should never be set on an options menu, it would break immersion more than any awkward conversation.

People have pretty much covered every point that would need to be covered to make everyone a winner.

• A male/male romantic interest should involve new characters as dynamics have already been well established with existing crew members.
  Any male/male romance would have to be initiated by Shepard, and it should be subtle so the only people that go looking for M/M romance will experience the dialoge. This means crew members will not so much as insinuate they are interested in Shepard without him saying something first.

People who dont want to see it wont see it. Those that want to see it get to see it. Everybody wins.

No one seemed to have a problem with selecting a personality profile of War Hero, Sole Survivor or Ruthless.

I understand the notion that proponents of same/sex romances do not want to select a personality label in order to pursue what the feel is natural.

However, anything less is really a complete concession on the part of the opposition with nothing gained in return. A once-per-game option is a comparatively small concession on the part of proponents. Without such an option, the opposition loses entirely and some may feel compelled to avoid certain characters (and miss out on part of the story) because of it. Whether or not some might label this as irrational homophobia is no more relevant than if they find homosexuality to be unnatural. The purpose here is not which side is right, but how best to accomodate both without undermining the other entirely.

[PyroFreak301]

I Pyrrhus I wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

I don't like the idea of an options menu toggle, a personality choice like that should never be set on an options menu, it would break immersion more than any awkward conversation.

People have pretty much covered every point that would need to be covered to make everyone a winner.

• A male/male romantic interest should involve new characters as dynamics have already been well established with existing crew members.
  Any male/male romance would have to be initiated by Shepard, and it should be subtle so the only people that go looking for M/M romance will experience the dialoge. This means crew members will not so much as insinuate they are interested in Shepard without him saying something first.

People who dont want to see it wont see it. Those that want to see it get to see it. Everybody wins.

No one seemed to have a problem with selecting a personality profile of War Hero, Sole Survivor or Ruthless.

I understand the notion that proponents of same/sex romances do not want to select a personality label in order to pursue what the feel is natural.

However, anything less is really a complete concession on the part of the opposition with nothing gained in return. A once-per-game option is a comparatively small concession on the part of proponents. Without such an option, the opposition loses entirely and some may feel compelled to avoid certain characters (and miss out on part of the story) because of it. Whether or not some might label this as irrational homophobia is no more relevant than if they find homosexuality to be unnatural. The purpose here is not which side is right, but how best to accomodate both without undermining the other entirely.

I would distinguish between chosing past events in your life before you control Shepard and current choices you make while playing Shepard. Chosing gay/straight through the an options menu would be more similar to choosing to be Paragon or Renegade before the game starts.

I honestly dont see how people opposed to it would feel underminded by having the option there. It's just an option, one they wouldn't have to choose. Bioware could hide it well, but make it obvious that a straight Shepard doesn't want to be clicking on that button. If it was forced upon you, then and only then would the opposition feel offended.

[Arik7]

Talk about forced.... I felt kind of violated when my GAY Shepard (I don't care what Muzika says) got raped by the Consort.

[Kronner]

Why waste resources (money, people-hours) on such meaningless and trivial stuff? I'd much prefer more gear than more romance options.

[YakoHako]

lost lupus wrote...
 shep is clearly straight

How is he "clearly" straight?

[diskoh]

I Pyrrhus I wrote...

I don't see the need to force the option upon us at all, no I'm not worried about accidently selecting it, I just don't want to sacrifice my own immersion and ideals by being offered that option.

How does it sacrifice your immersion or ideals to have an option? I'm genuinly curious.

[jselene]

If you amend that to make default "on", then I'm happy with the OP's suggestion. Actually, why don't we just have on-off switches for all types of options? :/ I didn't like having to be rude to Jacob just to keep FemShep out of his pants.



Not so happy with the 'hidden option' thing, though. It was already done with Sky, and that was...annoying at best.

[Ryzaki]

jselene wrote...

If you amend that to make default "on", then I'm happy with the OP's suggestion. Actually, why don't we just have on-off switches for all types of options? :/ I didn't like having to be rude to Jacob just to keep FemShep out of his pants.

Not so happy with the 'hidden option' thing, though. It was already done with Sky, and that was...annoying at best.

I got used to it by simply playing closed fist whenever I wanted to romance him so it at least fit into my character's personality to dump Dawn Star and Silk Fox like hot potatoes due to their in ability to grasp power on their own.

Then again I love that game to death. That actually was my first BioWare game. Awesomesause. Needless to say I was pleasently surprised by the MM option.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 février 2010 - 09:46 .