214 réponses à ce sujet

[PyroFreak301]

Funkenstein23 wrote...

@PyroFreak301

I think the problem with your comparison is that America's view of black people, unlike America's view of homosexuality, is not up in the air right now. Agree or disagree, like or dislike, it is a hot topic issue. BioWare would be well within their rights to implement a system like the one offered in this thread. Your point is valid but so is the OP's. If BW were to implement something that many in their target audience would dislike, it is sensible to have a means to outright avoid it.

I've only been vaguely following the progress of gay rights in America recently, but I do understand it's very much a hot topic for most US based players.

I still maintain that simply making it difficult to get to a point where you could romance a male crew member would allow it to slip under the radar of most players that claim they would take offense to it. This way the people who were interested in the gay love interest would get the customisation they desire. An on/off button for things like this would be dangerous ground to tread, and potential media lashback would be huge if they caught wind of it.

Modifié par PyroFreak301, 08 février 2010 - 02:56 .

[danman2424]

PyroFreak301 wrote...


The way I see it, both racism and homophobia both target groups of people for aspects of their life they have absolutely no control over. Being gay is as much a choice for a person as being born with coloured skin, there is absolutely no plausible reason we should hold them accountable or attempt to reject or segregate them from society, be it in games or issues much larger.

Of course being gay is not a choice. Being attracted to your dog or sister isn't exactly something people choose out of some list either. No one controls their attractions, desires, or their temptations. What you can control is whether or not you act on them.

Hence, why  people have a problem with homosexuality, and not necessarily the homosexual.

Modifié par danman2424, 08 février 2010 - 03:08 .

[PyroFreak301]

danman2424 wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...


The way I see it, both racism and homophobia both target groups of people for aspects of their life they have absolutely no control over. Being gay is as much a choice for a person as being born with coloured skin, there is absolutely no plausible reason we should hold them accountable or attempt to reject or segregate them from society, be it in games or issues much larger.

Of course being gay is not a choice. Being attracted to your dog or sister isn't exactly something people choose out of some list either. No one controls their attractions, desires, or their temptations. What you can control is whether or not you act on them.

Hence, why  people have a problem with homosexuality, and not necessarily the homosexual.

I dont see how what people do behind closed doors is anyones business except their own. Hell, if your dog and/or sister consents, do what you please, noone has the right to judge you for it.

[I Pyrrhus I]

@PyroFreak301

The inappropriateness which I addressed was a comparison of people who don't believe in homosexuality to racists. My comment was aimed more at a particular sarcastic remark to that effect, although your academic comparison is offensive as well (although not as much intended to be.) Personally I consider such comparisons to be as offensive as homosexuals undoubtedly consider gay bashing to be. Regardless I recognize the neutral nature in which your remark was made.

That being said, you are right that religion has no place in the matter of a solution to the issue. I merely mentioned it to demonstrate that not all opposition is grounded in hate. The merits of this and other arguments on the underlying issue are of course a matter of agree to disagree on both sides.

I certainly cannot agree that a comparison between racism, and not believing in homosexuality is valid. For example, It is probably not possible for someone who is racist to love their nephews and nieces born of an interracial marriage. By contrast, someone who you might label as a homophobe could easily love their gay son.

Further, I cannot agree that selecting your orientation in advance is discrimination. Its no more discriminating than it is to choose your gender or skin color, both of which have a default setting (white male in this case). You go on to claim that homosexuality is not something which someone can control. In direct contradiction to that you require that it be represented in the game as choices (part of moulding your own character.) If it is in fact not something which you can control, then why not group it with things which are similarly not in your control; you cite skin color, and I will add gender to that list. These uncontrollable components of a person are, in Mass Effect, part of your character creation and not part of your dialog options.

Yes, in real life it is possible that a gay person could give you unsolicited attentions, but it is also possible that a gay person could be subject to discriminatory remarks. Following your logic we should also include these remarks as dialog options since they are part of everyday life and you can just forget about them. Rather than follow real life exactly however, I propose that we take advantage of the manufactured reality of video games and create and allow those on either side of the debate to play in a reality which they prefer.

Modifié par I Pyrrhus I, 08 février 2010 - 03:15 .

[1Parmenides]

The soap opera continues...



Go play Mass Effect 2 some more.

[I Pyrrhus I]

tyddrwsau wrote...

Like others, I'm not delighted at the precedent suggested by a "toggle same-sex romance" option: but it would be better than nothing. Perhaps instead "enable character romance" would be a better setting.

It certainly wouldn't be hard for me to notice the check-box and switch it to "ON" during my routine check for whether or not I can turn bloody gore "OFF."

I find that the toggling of individual character romances is a fair and reasonable alternative to my original suggestion, I of course favor it as default unchecked for controversial romances from a utilitarian perspective. I will amend my original post to include that as an alternative to my suggestion.

[jacksmedula1]

Honestly... who cares? Does the gay community need the main character of a video game to be homosexual for validation?

[danman2424]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...


The way I see it, both racism and homophobia both target groups of people for aspects of their life they have absolutely no control over. Being gay is as much a choice for a person as being born with coloured skin, there is absolutely no plausible reason we should hold them accountable or attempt to reject or segregate them from society, be it in games or issues much larger.

Of course being gay is not a choice. Being attracted to your dog or sister isn't exactly something people choose out of some list either. No one controls their attractions, desires, or their temptations. What you can control is whether or not you act on them.

Hence, why  people have a problem with homosexuality, and not necessarily the homosexual.

I dont see how what people do behind closed doors is anyones business except their own. Hell, if your dog and/or sister consents, do what you please, noone has the right to judge you for it.

I'm not yet sure how I feel about homosexuality, incest, or bestiality, but I'll give you one thing, you're no hypocrite. You believe in freedom of sexual preference across the board rather than saying "I'll accept this and this, but this is too icky."

I feel I have to commend you for that even if I don't necessarily agree with that stance. You're the type of person that could spawn an interesting discussion about gay rights rather than the usual activists that will condone one deviation from the sexual norm but condemn all others as disgusting or immoral.

Modifié par danman2424, 08 février 2010 - 03:30 .

[I Pyrrhus I]

1Parmenides wrote...

The soap opera continues...

Go play Mass Effect 2 some more.

Why aren't you playing Mass Effect 2 right now anyway?

[PyroFreak301]

It's getting late here so I'll respond with some more thought tomorrow.

As for the suggestion about checking individual character romances, that would totally kill imersion for me straight off the bat. It'd be like lining up your crew and pointing at each one in line and saying which ones you would be interested in, often before even meeting them if it's your first playthrough.

Shepard: "I'd do you, I'd do you, I wouldn't do you, nor you, you I would, you I wouldnt. Remember this crew, for those that I have not selected are not permitted to show interest in me under any circumstances." (You don't have to take this part too seriously).

Being able to select your gender preference is one thing, but for crew members to automatically respond to it like Shepard's going round wearing a badge saying "No, I'm not into dudes" doesn't do a game built around relationships and discovery any justice.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that I'm all for any form of media that will push users/viewers a little past their comfort zone of ethics and morality. Anything that provokes self-reflection on issues like these can only be a good thing.

Modifié par PyroFreak301, 08 février 2010 - 03:41 .

[Neolex01]

I haven't finished ME2 yet, and I am sorely disheartened by the fact that all my manly flirting with Jacob will result in nought!
Bioware! Please! Rectify!

Modifié par Neolex01, 08 février 2010 - 03:49 .

[Niorcs]

I don't see much of what a compromise would be, OP. I know your position would be that, because you would not personally want a homosexual relationship in your game, you'd like at least a toggle option to turn it on or off.



If you flipped the tables, that's like asking a player that wants a homosexual relationship to toggle off all relationships if they're not straight. Why can't you just pick and choose, and if an NPC starts coming onto you, you say no? I mean, that works in real life

[Gemini1179]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

It's getting late here so I'll respond with some more thought tomorrow.

As for the suggestion about checking individual character romances, that would totally kill imersion for me straight off the bat. It'd be like lining up your crew and pointing at each one in line and saying which ones you would be interested in, often before even meeting them if it's your first playthrough.

Shepard: "I'd do you, I'd do you, I wouldn't do you, nor you, you I would, you I wouldnt. Remember this crew, for those that I have not selected are not permitted to show interest in me under any circumstances." (You don't have to take this part too seriously).

Being able to select your gender preference is one thing, but for crew members to automatically respond to it like Shepard's going round wearing a badge saying "No, I'm not into dudes" doesn't do a game built around relationships and discovery any justice.

I'm just getting back from a Superbowl party, I've read the first post and this one. This one makes a good case against the OP and I agree with this person's position personally.

That said, as a straight male, I am quite capable of fending off unwanted male advances and don't really 'buy' the "Shepard is straight" cannon, because by that logic, Shepard is also a neutral male Soldier, and yet you can play as a female, Adept, Engineer, Paragon, Renegade and everything in between... unless you're interested in men (while also playing as a man). Besides, I like playing as a femShep ( I love staring at a beautiful woman that I created) and I like chasing women (pixelated only as I am happily married - *looks around for wife*).

I was not put off by Zevran in DAO. Fair is fair- though by choice (imagine that) I didn't romance him with any of my male characters (there's a way you can keep both Lelianna and Morrigan ) but I did let my female Elf have a go at him for kicks. GO CHOICE!

I read the IGN post, and I call BS on him and every blatant homophobic post I've been seeing on this forum. Let me be clear- I don't think EVERY male character in the game should be gay/bi, nor do I think that EVERY female character in the game should be gay/bi. As far as the series has gone, I don't really feel like any of the male characters would really fit into a Gay/bi role. Certainly not Kaiden, (at best he'd be angry and in the closet) Garrus, Jacob, Wrex (can't repopulate the species that way), Thane (too much of a family man) or Zaeed (really angry in the closet...), but that doesn't mean there couldn't be a future character that might fit that role... although perhaps Mordin... oh I bet that would be more funny than anything else...

As for the women, Ash and Miranda are straight arrows, and while Tali is a seetheart and I love her all to bits, I don't think it would make a lot of sense for her to be anything but straight as it seems that at least a single child continuation of the species would be a priority for her. I think a case could be made either way for a few of the other female characters- to be honest, some of Jack's conversations would lead one to believe she HAS already been in a same sex/bi 'relationship'
"What, you mean like a boyfriend or girlfriend?"
"They took me to their bed."

If BioWare were to come out and says plain and simple: "We didn't want a male Shepard to be gay, period." I'd have more respect for them for it rather than this long-winded BS about "Third person narrative" vs "first person narrative" juxapositioned with the sales pitch for the last 3 years of how this whole epic story was going to be completely customizeable to how you want to play and what choices you want to make... unless you want to be gay.

Oh, they just left that last part out... I see... *roll eyes*

Finally, just so we are all on the same page, none of these threads matter. It is very likely that a decision has been made very high up and it is not going to change.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

To Gemin:


THANK YOU! Honestly. Thanks. About time some understanding in the
straight crowd. As for the mentionings of DAO. That dude Zevran is too
feminine! I digress though.

Thanks again for understanding that
we want an OPTION, not a mandatory gay romance for every male
Shepard.. Just the option. Me, personally, want Kaiden, simply because
they already did the voices and the scenes for it, but decided against
putting it in the game....

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 08 février 2010 - 04:43 .

[SirGladiator]

Unless Im missing something, Tali isn't the last of her species, and even if she were, Im not sure its any more realistic that she could have a child with MaleShep than FemShep anyway, kind've seems like some sort of scientific intelligence would be required in either case, which I would be all in favor of, of course. Other than that point I agree, give FemShep Jack and Tali, keep Miranda strictly for MaleShep, that would pretty much folllow the basic pattern from the previous Bioware games, and everyone would be happy.

[asaiasai]

I agree to what ever Bioware wants to do in regards to whether it be a setting in the game menu, a specific dialog option that pops up during conversation, or nothing. I still am whole heartedly for player choice in any way the player wants it. Gay, straight or celebate it should be player choice regardless of how they want to implement it and the "safeguards" they want to put in place to avoid offending sensibilities on both sides.



Asai

[Jimmy Fury]

Woah. Weird.

I suggested the *EXACT* same thing over on the gay shep thread like 4 hours after this thread started. I swear on every comic I own I didn't see this either.

Even the part about setting the default to Off.

So weird.

Obviously I think it's a great idea though lol

[kiyyto]

I Pyrrhus I wrote...

Let me start by saying that this thread is not intended to be another debate on whether or not  these romance options should be included in the game. What I want out of this thread is to determine the support or opposition of this compromise from each side of the debate. Also this suggestion is aimed more at ME3 because I do anicipate (or desire) a post-release change.

That said, this is my proposition:

The base game is without same/sex romance options, players will have no fear of inadvertantly encountering such options "AND" character interactions will not insinuate that such options even exist through body language or tone of voice. However, in the options menu there will be an option to enable same/sex romances. This option will be off by default to allow those who wish to avoid such things, to do so without having to worry about it at all. Should the option be enabled, there will be the inclusion of character interactions that satisfy the criteria of those who support same/sex romances.

The reason that I recommend "off by default" is that I believe this to be a greater concession by the opposition. I also do not believe that this imposes upon the same/sex supporters because in reality this is no different than a gender selection option. Having the default favor the majority is logical rather than discriminatory.

*Edit*
There is also a suggestion that romances be toggled (by individual NPC) in options rather than orientation. Not my first choice of alternatives personally, but a reasonable alternative none-the-less.
*Edit*

Please refrain from posting pro-same/sex or anti-same/sex politics in this thread, and instead post which side of the fence you are on and why you do (or don't) support this compromise.

I'll start:
I am from the opposition to same/sex romances perspective. I support this compromise because, despite having my way currently, there is no gaurantee that it will stay that way. Rather than risk losing outright in the future, I prefer a solution that may appease same/sex supporters while at the same time, not forcing their perspective upon me and those who share my perspective. Furthermore, such a compromise may further my goal by allowing for characters in question to be "fully straight" rather than ambiguous in the default game.

You'd have a lot of problems from homophobic parents and religious people who think it is acceptable to shoot a hundred people than screw one. I'm not for or against it, don't really care much either way. I guess I would rather see development resources spent on something else though.

You know that it is controversial. Why are you so interested in seeing it?
Are you homosexual and feel unrepresented?
If so then it makes sense why you want to see this happen.
Otherwise, I can't see the obsession.
How does it improve the game?

[kiyyto]

danman2424 wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...

danman2424 wrote...

PyroFreak301 wrote...


The way I see it, both racism and homophobia both target groups of people for aspects of their life they have absolutely no control over. Being gay is as much a choice for a person as being born with coloured skin, there is absolutely no plausible reason we should hold them accountable or attempt to reject or segregate them from society, be it in games or issues much larger.

Of course being gay is not a choice. Being attracted to your dog or sister isn't exactly something people choose out of some list either. No one controls their attractions, desires, or their temptations. What you can control is whether or not you act on them.

Hence, why  people have a problem with homosexuality, and not necessarily the homosexual.

I dont see how what people do behind closed doors is anyones business except their own. Hell, if your dog and/or sister consents, do what you please, noone has the right to judge you for it.

I'm not yet sure how I feel about homosexuality, incest, or bestiality, but I'll give you one thing, you're no hypocrite. You believe in freedom of sexual preference across the board rather than saying "I'll accept this and this, but this is too icky."

I feel I have to commend you for that even if I don't necessarily agree with that stance. You're the type of person that could spawn an interesting discussion about gay rights rather than the usual activists that will condone one deviation from the sexual norm but condemn all others as disgusting or immoral.

So funny.
You don't have to be FOR bestiality to be for homosexuality.
It is quite different to, ahem, a dog then to, ahem, a person.

You don't have to be accepting of everything, regardless of who tells you to be so.
It doesn't make you a hypocrite to OK gay sex and NO bestiality.

Lol.

[BrandNewMan]

I had thought before that this course of action would be the most compromising. I was thinking that, instead of dancing around your character's sexuality in-game, why not just be blunt about it and set your sexuality off the bat? People who don't want it won't even have the option in-game, and people who do won't have to jump through hoops (that would otherwise be used to keep the romances as hidden as possible) just to get it. This doesn't pertain itself Mass Effect either, but ALL future Bioware games that include romances.

[Soruyao]

As for the women, Ash and Miranda are straight arrows, and while Tali is a seetheart and I love her all to bits, I don't think it would make a lot of sense for her to be anything but straight as it seems that at least a single child continuation of the species would be a priority for her.

She told my femshep she'd like to "link suits" with her, and when she said she felt the same way, she got all flustered.



Then we never spoke of it again. It was really awkward and anticlimactic.



I would support the OP's compromise, though of course I'd prefer just having the options through dialogue.

[Gemini1179]

Soruyao wrote...

As for the women, Ash and Miranda are straight arrows, and while Tali is a seetheart and I love her all to bits, I don't think it would make a lot of sense for her to be anything but straight as it seems that at least a single child continuation of the species would be a priority for her.

She told my femshep she'd like to "link suits" with her, and when she said she felt the same way, she got all flustered.

Then we never spoke of it again. It was really awkward and anticlimactic.

I would support the OP's compromise, though of course I'd prefer just having the options through dialogue.

I agree about the awkward and anticlimactic conversation with Tali, I had it too and was a bit confused, and then she never talked to my FemShep again.

I didn't mean to imply that Tali shouldn't be romanceable by both men and women, just that from a story standpoint, I could understand if she wasn't.

That said, we are talking about a fictional alien race and I concede that I can't really apply a human perspective to what a Quarian's interests or reproductive abilities might be.

[Wittand25]

I would prefare if you choose to turn on/off the m/m-option in game and not in the options.

It can be done like it is for Jack in ME2, Shepard talks in an neutral way to the npc and after the conversation the npc asks if Shepard is flirting with him/her. If you choose yes as answer the romance starts if you choose no then not.

[tanarri23]

Just let Shepards of both genders get it on with Legion. Geth = sexless, and much more so than the asari, so no one can point their finger and scream gay.

</intentionally absurd>

Modifié par tanarri23, 08 février 2010 - 08:56 .

[The Demonologist]

I come back and this thread still fails.



If they add it, awesome. More replayability as its another path to experience. If not, too bad.



No sense in treating it as some extra, superfluous thing, especially with the F/F we've already seen.



Simple phrase for this.



Lrn2OpenMind.