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[AndreaDraco]

I just replayed the Ostagar segment (after the Joining), and the War Council, if looked at with thorough attention, offers some great insights:



1. Loghain didn't want Cailan to ride in the midst of the horde with the Grey Wardens (= his plans for the King, hence, didn't probably encompass the actual murder of Cailan. Probably, he just wanted to manipulate him away from his "perilous" Orlesian sympathies)

2. Loghain didn't trust the Grey Wardens at all, convincing me further that Solica's theory is probably spot-on. He wanted to use the battle at Ostagar to wipe the GW out of the map (and, probably, weaken the popular and nobiliar support to the King), intervening in the battle only after the GW had been defeated. In fact,

3. He wants the control of the Tower of Ishal, and when Cailan suggests to send Alistair and the Warden to lit the beacon, Uldred intervenes saying that the Tower and beacon aren't necessary at all (= Loghain probably tried to use him in case the King wouldn't trust Loghain's men to lit the beacon) to signal when Loghain should enter the battle.

4. When Cailan is adamantine about sending Alistair and the Warden (and Loghain realizes that probably the beacon will be lit in time), I can almost see the realization that, in the end, he will have to abandon Cailan to his death crossing his eyes when he says "A glorious day for us all".

[SusanStoHelit]

AndreaDraco wrote...

I really like this theory, and, as I already said, I really like solica's theory about what happened at Ostagar when the beacon was lit. I've adopted both of them as my personal truth about the game

Welcome, my friend. I agree that Solica's idea just makes much more sense (to me, at least) than others offered, and is very like what I had come up with on my own (although explained more thoroughly, mine was far more vague and based on 'gut instinct'). And yes, version 4 is my personal favourite, as I said.

[pharos_gryphon]

I've yet to replay RtO with Loghain in the party, but it seems to me that even if he didn't know about Cailan being in talks with the Empress, he would certainly know about his daughter seeming to be barren, and quite possibly that Arl Eamon was pressuring Cailan to 'remedy' the situation. Part of his motivation could simply be that of an overprotective father, seeking to safeguard both his daughter's interest and his family's pride.



It also seems to me that in the matter of Howe, Loghain seems to suggest or try to maneuver things, and Howe takes them a step further. If Loghain planned for a 'late charge' as Solica suggested, wouldn't it be fitting for him to tell Howe to 'delay Cousland forces when you march' just as I'm reading he had Eamon poisoned to keep him ill and out of the equation. In that light, Howe is simply an opportunist, capitalizing on the situation for maximum advantage. Couslands delayed? Why, I'll just avail myself of their castle and eliminate their teryn, leaving the marching forces without its leader. Eamon needing out of the equation? I'll simply remove him from the equation permanently and have one less political adversary for influence over the throne.



As to Loghain trying to keep Cailan out of battle, it's really a win win situation for him. By advising so much against it, if Cailan were to die, he could hold those arguments up to the other nobles and say "See?! I did all I could, it was an unfortunate mistake on the part of a rookie leader during war!" And if Cailan survived by staying out of the fight, it would be by sole virtue of Loghain's advise, increasing his influence over the king not only by saving his life, but by the GWs being severely weakened if not wiped out entirely. No matter what, he comes out ahead, Arl Eamon isn't there because of his argument with Cailan, Cousland nobility is out of the picture, there's simply no one left to argue on the king's behalf against any pressure he might try to exert on Cailan at that point, be it pulling out of Ostagar or whatever.

[legbamel]

Sabriana wrote...
Andrea, it's hard to figure the whole Loghain/Ishal/Cailan thing out without sliding into speculation. For example, the lighting of the beacon was definitely delayed. My PC and Alistair had to fight their way to the top, which takes a lot of time. Alistair himself says that "we surely missed the signal." How does that look to Loghain, who mistrusts anything that comes with the name 'Orlais' attached? Could he assume the lighting was delayed to lure him and his army into a death trap? Could be. Maybe. Maybe not.

I was always under the impression that Loghain was involved in opening the tunnels to the darkspawn so that they could overrun the tower.  Perhaps that was simply an assumption I made when I discovered that the grounds of the tower were closed off before the battle--I thought that Loghain had closed them so that his men could rip up that floor.  At any rate, I have believed that he knew that the beacon would be delayed and, indeed, that he may have been surprised to see it lit at all.

[SusanStoHelit]

Indeed; if he had his men rip up the floor then the darkspawn would kill his men - and the signal wouldn't be lit. Of course, he may not have believed or known that darkspawn would enter and do so. But he could certainly say that they had. A perfect excuse for him not attacking as planned. Right up until we lit it anyway.

[Edited for clarity.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 09 février 2010 - 03:33 .

[RangerSG]

pharos,



Generally I agree with you. But as a point of fact, Howe did not plan or execute Eamon's poisoning. That was all Loghain. Jowan never mentioned Howe. He specifically states he was recruited by the Teryn, "I recognized him from the pictures." The poisoning got out of hand because (presumably) Conner went bonzo and sold himself to a demon in his dreams.



It's also confirmed Loghain had the antidote. He almost certainly intended to use it. And it's likely that's why he had the spy there, in case things got out of hand. But they spun out of control well before anything could've been done.

[KrystylSky]

Random thought..... Howe is evil no doubt but he had a blood mage working for him. Is it possible that the mage had something to do with tainting loghain?

[AndreaDraco]

legbamel wrote...
I was always under the impression that Loghain was involved in opening the tunnels to the darkspawn so that they could overrun the tower.  Perhaps that was simply an assumption I made when I discovered that the grounds of the tower were closed off before the battle--I thought that Loghain had closed them so that his men could rip up that floor.  At any rate, I have believed that he knew that the beacon would be delayed and, indeed, that he may have been surprised to see it lit at all.

I thought that too, but David Gaider confirmed that the darkspawn overrunning the Tower was a pure - and lucky (on Loghain's part) - coincidence.

[AndreaDraco]

I've re-read David's posts in The Complete Defense of Loghain Mac Tir thread, and his first post is certainly pivotal in understanding the point at hand, so, for the sake of simplicity, I'm going to paste it here (highlighting the most key passages (at least in my opinion).

David Gaider wrote...

I haven't read this entire thread,
so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete
knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about
Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on
what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what
it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's
debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

In my
mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the
battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having
profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to
Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way,
undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on
killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing
what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of
confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That
said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south
with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I
think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that
he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he
would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and
in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his
kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up
to you.

There is also the matter of his association with Arl
Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics
makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always
thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was
probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to
manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without
Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in
bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar
doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a
decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the
end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who
can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The
burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he
feels.

Hope that makes sense, although I understand the topic of conversation here has gone in a lot of different directions. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png