80 réponses à ce sujet

[St Fredriksen]

What is it?

Character depth, group interaction and social complexity.

In Mass Effect I ran into the most interesting character I've witnessed in Wrex. It was a joy having him along.
In Mass Effect I had to do difficult choices, even when I tried to stay loyal to one side (Paragon/Renegade).
In Mass Effect I enjoyed seeing my characters interact with each other, with chit chat in the elevators.

The last part is important, because in Dragon Age it was ALL about my group, my characters, connecting with each other - and not only with my "main"/Shephard. And I'm not talking about key events that we get in certain points in the game, I'm talking about the feeling of being in a group - all the time. Dragon Age did this magnificently by letting the "Mass Effect 1-elevator chit chat" play a large role when wandering around in the world. They also were more unpredictable, and had more to talk about. In MF2 its a standard procedure - find the character, and do his sidequest. Yes, they were good, the quest and the conversations, but the way you unlocked conversations were predictable and repetitive.

In Dragon Age my characters lived with each other, in Mass Effect 2 this is completly thrown away. Only certain cutscenes at critical moments in the game tries to build up friendship or anger between certain members. Before that i might have played several hours with different characters, even meeting up with old non-playable friends with Garrus and Tali on my team, only to realize that the enviroment only see Shephard. I might as well play without the two members in the group, it never mattered the way it could have. That Liara totally ignored Tali and Garrus showed me that it's not flawless to try connecting the dots between the games - but it still doesn't explain why Bioware didnt pay more attention to the character interaction with each other. Some key moments, sure,. but it was certainly not a priority. It shows, and it disappoints. I think one of the character mentioned Garrus, when i had him on my team - i noticed it, and liked it - alot. Didnt happend again though...

Compared to Mass Effect, the sequel didn't test the boundaries when you tried to stay loyal to a side. IF you played as a good guy, it wasnt hard chosing the right answer... a difficult choice never occured to me in MF2. There was some points in MF1 that was hard, no matter the side you were loyal to.

And... let's be honest. The playable characters were great, but... and this is a big but(t).... NO ONE wasn't even near being as interesting as Wrex in the first game. I prayed that MF2 would give me the opertunity to have him by my side, but I realize that it would be a complex job.. but probably not an impossible one.


So, Bioware, please... next time, pick up some tips from your colleagues in the Dragon Age-crew, and make Mass Effect 3 perfect by adding more character and group interaction, more in-game dialogue, unpredictable and unlockable dialoges at certain areas etc. Pretty, pretty please with sugar on the top!


Regards,
Chiefo.

PS: You have to excuse my grammar. English is my second language

Modifié par St Fredriksen, 08 février 2010 - 01:09 .

[casedawgz]

I think the presence of Mordin Solus invalidates most claims of lack of character depth.

[St Fredriksen]

Mordin was almost as good as Wrex. Yes, he was a complex and great character. And I do realize that character depth might be a unvalid point in my post, Its just how you experience the characters and how they interact with you and those around you.

The Lab-chat was one of the few places i really enjoyed... i grew tired of many of the others "spots".

Modifié par St Fredriksen, 08 février 2010 - 01:17 .

[MonkeyLungs]

More banter between characters as you run around in non-combat zones. More like DA:O in the beginning of that game. When you first get to Lothering Alistair and Morrigan have alot of dialogue. And Morrigan talks to your dog alot too.



Just more party banter.



More conferneces where the ENTIRE crew gets together and talks would be cool too.



More havingt o CHOOSE between crew members with some of those choices not being able to be negated by high para/rene scores. Like you HAVE to pick a side.



Anything that adds to replaying the game.



Anything that increases party banter between each other.



How about sometimes, your crewmates just come and find you and put you on the spot and ask you some questions etc.???

[Justin2k]

Where ME2 kind of failed in my opinion was not to do what Dragon Age did. DA rewarded you for taking people on missions and for talking to them and involving them. The more involved they were the more you got to know them.  My first playthrough i knew nothing about Sten despite talking to him reguarly in camp.  When i started to use him more on the second playthrough he really opened up.

ME2 it doesnt seem that way. I took Miranda with me everywhere, she said very little on missions, a romance line overode things such as her personal history and her opinions and feelings on things.  I spoke to Jacob every time, and he really just has little to say.

I think romance took too much away from character interaction to be honest. Six options is too much when you only choose one.  You got to know very little about a girl, then she jumped on you. I would have preferred to learn more about Jack's childhood, more Quarian stories and more about Cerberus than even have a romance option.

Modifié par Justin2k, 08 février 2010 - 01:20 .

[Darth Obvious]

And here I thought the thread was going to be about hours and hours of tedious loot collection.



That would fit the title of the thread perfectly, don't you think?



Fwiw, I find the characters In ME2 to be more likable overall than in previous Bioware games. Characters like Jack, Thane, Mordin, Morinth, Legion, etc. may not have as many lines as DA characters, but to me their character concepts seem a hell of a lot more unique and interesting.

[Lmaoboat]

I never really cared for the characters in DA:O liked I did in ME 2.

[Justin2k]

Lmaoboat wrote...

I never really cared for the characters in DA:O liked I did in ME 2.

Characters were far superior in ME2.

There was better banter, chit-chat, talking options in DA:O

But the characters were much better certainly.  Problem is more the "i have nothing to say come back later" of ME2.

[Geawiel]

======================POSSIBLE SPOILERS!!!!!!===============================









There were a couple times where they interacted. For example, in ME1 i used Tali and Garrus a lot, they would chat in the elevators constantly. In ME2, i had them on an elevator and Garrus asked Tali if she ever missed their talks on the elevators. That was it though. No one really talked to each other, save but a throwback reference here and there to the first one and its events. There was almost no talk, there was very little interaction between team members. Even in ME1, if i did something that a team member had a comment on, they would comment:



Wrex "are you stupid shepard!? My kind spent a lot of time getting rid of the Rachni and you're going to let them go free again? I guess we'll be cleaning this mistake up again....This will bite you in the ass, just you wait.."



Things like that. Are what give the game depth and get you sucked into the game. Dragon Age was extremely good at it, as mentioned before here and in other threads/places. The decisions made towards the end of ME2 were not difficults and i really felt no vested interest in saving anyone but Tali and Garrus, since i had them from ME1.

[Justin2k]

Do remember though, memories are sometimes blinkered.  While ME1 team members spoke in elevators and things, the ME2 cast have almost 5-6x more actual dialogue in some cases. 

It has been improved on.   It just doesn't always seem like it because there are more team members and its mostly confined to on ship talks with Shepard or loyalty quests.

[dubosedraken]

Out of those three, ME2 had Character depth... or atleast some. Mordin Solus was the best for me (man is he awesome), otherwise, meh. Mass Effect 1s character development and story was so much better. 

[TanithAeyrs]

I haven't finished ME2 yet (probably 2/3 of the way through) so there may be more NPC interaction that I have missed but overall I agree. I do not feel as connected to the ME2 NPC's as I did to the NPC's in ME1 or DA:O. The lack of NPC banter makes my team feel shallow. They seem to have relatively deep personal quests but that is it. Wrex was by far my favorite character in ME1 but it took a long time to get to know him. The only character in ME2 that approaches that is Mordin. I also find it frustrating that there is so little dialog with Garrus outside of his quest after all the conversations my Shep had with him in ME1.



It may be a little unfair to compare ME2 to DA:O (which has replaced BG2 as my all time favorite). DA:O is a much longer game and was in development for 7 years before release. It is also a true RPG where ME2 is more RPG lite.



I am enjoying ME2 but it has not held my interest as well as ME1 did.

[hellflre41]

I got to agree. There needs more interactions with the party members in Mass Effect 2 like the character interactions in Dragon Age. There is a lot of tension between some of the members in Mass Effect 2, such as between Tali and Legion, Miranda and Jack, Garrius and Grunt. i wont' go into the details but it would be great to see those character talk to each other and make jokes like they characters in dragon age origins.

[AtreiyaN7]

I like the ME2 characters and think they're fleshed out better than the ones in ME1, but I can certainly go for DA:O-style party banter and interactions if they can work it into ME3.

[Darkeus]

*Shrugs*



There is not as much party interaction but people seem to forget that there is banter in conversations depending on who you have, People make character specific comments on the places you are at.



It is just different than Dragon Age.

[Handsome Hank]

KOTOR = Amazing story

ME1 = Amazing storytelling

DAO = Amazing party banter

ME2 = Amazing storytelling



Other than Neverwinter Nights, I have to say that I think DAO was the worst bioware game ever made. Now, worst for bioware is still better than many developers so don't think I didn't play through both of them (I just only played through them once).

[Gaddmeister]

St Fredriksen wrote...

Before that i might have played several hours with different characters, even meeting up with old non-playable friends with Garrus and Tali on my team, only to realize that the enviroment only see Shephard. I might as well play without the two members in the group, it never mattered the way it could have. That Liara totally ignored Tali and Garrus showed me that it's not flawless to try connecting the dots between the games - but it still doesn't explain why Bioware didnt pay more attention to the character interaction with each other.

While it didn't bother me too much that there wasn't any conversation between squad members while Shepard and the team were running around, the part I've quoted actually bugged me. I didn't expect much really, but Tali and Garrus could at least have said hello to old friends. Was that too much to ask for? I agree with you, it should have been included.

[finc.loki]

It would have been great with a little more banter.



Imagine Jack and Miranda in the same squad, they can throw snide remarks .

Sort of like how Morrigan used to pick on Alistair.

It makes the game a little bit more alive, you want comments to happen.

[spernus]

Handsome Hank wrote...

KOTOR = Amazing story
ME1 = Amazing storytelling
DAO = Amazing party banter
ME2 = Amazing storytelling

Other than Neverwinter Nights, I have to say that I think DAO was the worst bioware game ever made. Now, worst for bioware is still better than many developers so don't think I didn't play through both of them (I just only played through them once).

Worst for Bioware are Jade empire and NWN.

Out of the 2,the weakest is definitively Jade imo.Honestly,I haven't seen anyone who will mention characters from that game since they were completely forgettable.Combat system was very poor as well and way too simplistic.

The story was solid however,despite being cliche.The sum of all part is a solid rpg,but it didn't represent what Bioware is capable of doing.Bioware shouldn't make solid rpg,but some of if not the best in the business.

[Sareth39]

I personally like the characters in the mass effect series better than Dragon age, and people will probably hate me for this, but I didn't like wrex, my favorites were kaiden and Garrus, Garrus being my number 1 favorite ally.

I also loved Jade empire, granted the allies weren't the greatest, but I still really enjoyed the game, I hope they make they make a sequel and make more memorable allies.

Modifié par Sareth39, 08 février 2010 - 07:29 .

[CheesecakeRecipe]

I thought the party banter really helped Mass Effect 1 shine, allowing the characters to show that they actually exist with each other. Dragon Age: Origins multiplied this "lived in" feel greatly with more party banter that was much more in-depth. Plus the sheer number of character combinations and the conversations they could have is enough to make the head spin! But so far in ME2 (I haven't finished yet but I doubt it will change anytime soon) is that other than me asking each character "What do you think of the crew?" it's like they don't realize the others are even there.



Personality wise I'd say that almost all of the characters in both ME games as well as DA:O fit into an archetype and do it well, but after so many Bioware games you begin to notice the characters from previous games' similarity to the new characters.

[DadeLeviathan]

I would agree that Mass Effect 2 has less character depth and character development than Mass Effect 1 or Dragon Age, but it doesn't have none. It's just not as good. Do I want more character development in Mass Effect 3? Yes. But do I think Mass Effect 2 was built up of 1 dimensional characters with no development at all? no.

[aquatine]

I have three opinions on this, additionally, I have never played Dragon Age, so please take that into account:



First, I LOVE the character concepts for everyone in ME 2, in the original it seemed as though all the party members did nothing but represent their class/race combination and that was nice, gave it that whole, this alignment is designed to think this way thing, from Core D&D books, essentially providing important RP springboards.



Second, I disagree with the notion that the characters aren't more fleshed out in ME2 than ME1. Prime example, in the quest where you pickup Garrus, btw BioWare EPIC nick-name for him, they used his obvious need to seek out villains and right wrongs to create an entirely new and vastly superior persona. Mordin is another fine example that has already been mentioned multiple times. The man re-tooled the Krogan Genophage to better "maintain" the population (mentioned shortly after you get him so no spoiler ) and clearly regrets doing so, from what I remember of ME1, no one really had consciences (I get that right?)



And Finally, while it is still easy to attach to certain characters, the entire time the game is telling you SOME OF YOU MAY DIE, I feel in not having the banter in elevators, etc. BioWare is striving for a slightly less emotional attachment to the ENTIRE party so that people don't rage if their whole team dies.





P.S. The Following may be considered a spoiler.











P.P.S: I only lost Zaeed in seperation 2

[St Fredriksen]

I'm glad (and not suprised) that im not the only one that feels that something is missing in MF2, crossing my fingers for number three...