126 réponses à ce sujet

[Ricardoy]

The inventory of ME2 is actually better i also like the armor customization.

[1Parmenides]

stofsk wrote...

Right.  Though i shouldn't have used the word "flawed."  More like "unrealistic."  For most medieval RPG's it's almost like a necessary evil.

Incorrect. A RPG like The Witcher shows that you don't need the more 'conventional' idea of an inventory to be effective. Geralt has two weapons, plus his clothes, and doesn't need to carry anything extra except for small items that you can reasonably expect to fit in a pack.

Even in ME2, not everything is perfect in regards to inventory weight and volume (e.g. carrying ore).

Just because you can amass hundreds of thousands of units worth of resources, doesn't mean we know what that unit measures. What if 1 unit = 1 gram? A 100K worth of palladium ends up being 1 ton, which would be less than what the shuttle realistically masses. Remember, iridium, palladium and platinum are among the rarest elements on earth, and I doubt this would change if you explored alien planets (as for eezo, well, they didn't invent the phrase unobtanium for nothing). Just becase the numbers seem high doesn't mean there's a 'lot' of that resource onboard your ship. Given the way scanning seems to work, you're only finding the most easily accessible and retrievable mineral lodes on the planetary surface. Quantities wouldn't be high I expect.

Never played the Witcher.  Good to know the times are changing for the better. 

As far as weight/volume of resources.  Hopefully you're right.  The cases sure look big though.  My point was to show that even if ME2 didn't have everything perfect, they were light years ahead going the right direction.  But if they had it perfect, then all the better. 

[pedal2metal]

Frotality wrote...

i...just...sigh.

yes ME2 is an RPG. a rotten apple is also still an apple, though not necessarily a good one.

ive never argued that ME2 wasnt an RPG, and dont think many that support inventory do either. we argue that varied inventory and deep character customization are intergral parts of an RPG experience, and without them mass effect 2 has less rpg elements, and by logical deduction can then be considered less of an rpg than ME1; and this, in its execution in ME2 and not by virtue of it, we find to be a detriment.

please dont think that because ME1 was one instance of these elements being flawed that they can never work positively. ME2 had no inventory, as you more or less note, but that doesnt mean an inventory cant  be good just because it was clunky in ME. ME2 should be judged as a sequel, not on its own.

hope that was diplomatic enough...

Ok, I hear you & I'm an RPG guy from paper & pencil days over 30 years ago so I'm in agreement spiritually-speaking.  However, I've been analyzing the differences between ME1 & ME2 & they may not be as drastic as you might think initially.  Regarding skill trees, take an ME1 soldier & remove all the skills which have an equivalent (albeit different) substitute in ME2:  First Aid:  replaced by Unity/Medigel, Unity:  replaced by Unity/Medigel, Weapon Skills:  all gone in ME2 but replaced by class-specific weapons skills, etc...  What you'll end up with is about 6 unique skills in each class which is about what ME2 provides.  So roughly equivalent.

Regarding items, it's true that the "journey" is gone but the end result is better in ME2 as you have genuinely distinct weapon/armor loadouts with various tradeoffs for each.  In ME1, once you got Colossus/Spectre X, you were done gathering loot as nothing else really compared.  You might change your ammo type depending upon the circumstances but you almost always used frictionless materials, scram rail to maximize heat reduction/damage for the weapon upgrades.  For the armor, I found Medical System X + either Combat Exoskeleton (to give biotic/tech resistance for heavy armors) or Energized Plating X (for damage resistance for light/medium armors) to be all that was needed.  So the "journey" is missing in ME2 but the end result is a bit more tactically varied as compared to ME1.

Regarding cooldowns:  Using 4 powers in 40 seconds comes out to 1 power/10 seconds on average which is akin to ME2's 3-12 second global cooldowns.  So while it makes ME2 more difficult as you can't roll-off 4 power combos immediately by yourself, it's on-average roughly the same power per unit time rate overall.

Also the ME1 difficulties were all pretty easy once you hit level 50 or so.  Once you reach that level, you can walk in any fight in ME1 & dominate, even on insanity.  ME2, you can't do this.  You have to use cover or else you will die.

So it's true that ME2 has a different "feel" to it, functionally it's more similar than we might want to believe.  It's just so streamlined is what makes it seem that something is "missing".  Try the analysis yourself & see what you think.  I think you'll see it's different but perhaps not as drastic as you might think initially.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[pedal2metal]

I do agree that an inventory system doesn't have to be broke like it was in ME1. Given Bioware has done inventory successfully in every other Bioware game, this is clearly just a design decision in ME2. The thing that was missing from ME1 in terms of weapon customization was the "rock-paper-scissors" tradeoffs like in DAO. In DAO, you can have varying weapon powers & there isn't any one power that is always the best so you can usually have 2 or 3 weapons to shift amongst depending upon circumstances. In ME1, I basically used only 2 ammo types once i got the best gear (with the afore-mentioned weapon upgrades always applied): Tungsten or Shredder. You just used Tungsten for everyone for synthetic enemies or Shredder for everyone for organic enemies. That's all you had to do. You could mix it up more w/inferno, frost, polonium, etc... but it really wasn't necessary. DAO made this type of switching necessary (as did NWN) by enemies having resistances which negated the advantages of certain bonuses requiring the player to be more selective/adaptive to each combat situation. ME1 was missing this. ME2 has improved this aspect with the enemy resistances, etc... so in terms of combat balance & tactical depth, I think it's better than ME1.

However, that's not to say, that one couldn't have both: a working inventory system AND a working tactical tradeoff combat system (eg:  KOTOR, NWN, DAO).  I would welcome that so long as the inventory system worked.  If not, I'd rather have ME2 approach which simply removes inventory altogether.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Modifié par pedal2metal, 08 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[pedal2metal]

nteger wrote...

While I love every game that bioware has made, I'm not so ready as many other people are to praise Bioware outright and claim that they made the greatest decisions in the history of game development. Please stop making it seem as if everything they do is pure eezo. I believe that their weapon system is a step in the right direction, though. I think they should make the weapons modular like the N7 armor. Even if they don't bother making models for each piece, they can implement a mod system similar to that in ME 1. I don't think they should do this because it would make the game more of an RPG, but because it would add depth, and it would barely detract from the "streamlined" gameplay that they seem to care about so much now.

I agree but the armor upgrade system in ME2 is more akin to the weapon upgrade system in KOTOR.  In that game each weapon had unique upgrades you could select from & they were reasonably rare but meaningful.  ME1 just has 2 upgrade slots, 1 ammo slots for every weapon (once you hit level 7 or above on weapon quality) & the upgrades/ammo are like finding dirt:  all over the place.  However, ME1 doesn't have the same customizable "feel" as KOTOR weapons or ME2 armor.  It's feels more "cookie-cutter" & less "unique".  I would gladly welcome allowing weapon customization in the same vein as KOTOR/ME2 armor.  I think that would be great.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Frotality]

pedal2metal wrote...

<snip>

i have analyzed it in many ways, and i never thought the changes were exactly drastic, just...wrong. i agree with you on skills and cooldown, we didnt need 60 levels, they work much better this time around (except for pointlessly splitting it up into 1234 intervals instead of 10, which would be much less a chore to figure out how to level).

but about items...yes in ME1 you would end up with not much or meaningful variety...but all ME2 does to improve distinction is remove everything between avenger I and HMWA X. in ME1 i could at least change a few upgrades in the endgame, in ME2 i end up with the exact same upgrades everytime, armor and weapons. the big problem with the armor system is its lack of variety, or meaningful bonuses in ME2, whihc is the same problem of the first. ME2 improved the variety by just scrapping everything between armor buff health buff and shield buff. ME1 had the problem of pointless choice, ME2 has the problem of way to little choice. save a very few armor pieces, the ME2 endgame has no variation; the middle game has just as little. ME1 at least had some differing upgrades; but more importantly alot of variety while mid-level; ME2 has less choice across the board.

seeing high heels, straps, and cleavage in hazardous enviroments really kills immersion; as does the ability for a master at arms to only have 2-3 kinds of a weapon; as does adding a fish tank and armor patterns whilst removing all the purposeful choice of the first game.

like someone said before, 'streamlined' doesnt cut it. i never wanted choice to disappear, i wanted to be able to clean my inventory in less than an hour. not once did i see, "i hate weapon and armor mods, cant they just be one direct upgrade to buy instead of having to make a choice?", and i cannot recall, at least in a serious sense' "boy, that sealed suit really doesnt suit ashley's character, she should wear a a leather strap on uncharted worlds".

ME2 being different isnt bad, nor is it good. ME2 changed for no good reason, and change for change's sake is certainly not what the series needed. a good script and interesting characters dont make an RPG, that makes a story. effectively immersing the player into a role is what makes an RPG, and ME2 removed alot of the player choice that made that so much easier to do.

[nicodeemus327]

After playing ME1 I can say that ME2 changed for many many good reasons. The only thing they should have done is expand armor customization to the entire squad. They kinda started that with the upgrades for jack and mordin.

[AtreiyaN7]

I agree. Omni-gelling everything was my biggest pet peeve in ME1 after doing two NG+ runs to hit 60.

[Shadowwot]

I really like ME2's inventory - it never made sense to me that I would carry my 150 guns and armour with me at all times wherever I went.

[Doug84]

1Parmenides wrote...

I'm an RPG fan. I rarely play FPS's.  But I must say, I love the inventory system (or lack thereof) in this game.  

I'm glad Bioware saw that you don't have to have 150 items in your magic invisible backpack in order for this to be an RPG.  Shepard's armor should be custom fit anyways, not looted from some random locker.   This is a welcome change. 

Agreed - an inventory doesth not makest an RPG.

[MoonChildTheUnholy]

Inventory? what inventory guys theres nothing now

We cant even sell stuff or trade materials from boring scans <_<

[nicodeemus327]

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

Inventory? what inventory guys theres nothing now

We cant even sell stuff or trade materials from boring scans <_<

A inventory is just a list of goods and materials. The armor customization and upgrade screens are inventories. Hell, the weapon selection screen is an inventory as well.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 08 février 2010 - 08:25 .

[Killian Kalthorne]

1Parmenides wrote...

I'm an RPG fan. I rarely play FPS's.  But I must say, I love the inventory system (or lack thereof) in this game.  

I'm glad Bioware saw that you don't have to have 150 items in your magic invisible backpack in order for this to be an RPG.  Shepard's armor should be custom fit anyways, not looted from some random locker.   This is a welcome change. 

You may welcome it, but I don't.  How the hell are we suppose to armor up our squad?  Oh that's right, we don't.  While it is okay for Shepherd to be armored in the top gear, Garrus gets to keep his broken ass armor.  I guess that is better than Jack running in a gun fight HALF FRAKIN' NAKED!

[Killian Kalthorne]

Doug84 wrote...

1Parmenides wrote...

I'm an RPG fan. I rarely play FPS's.  But I must say, I love the inventory system (or lack thereof) in this game.  

I'm glad Bioware saw that you don't have to have 150 items in your magic invisible backpack in order for this to be an RPG.  Shepard's armor should be custom fit anyways, not looted from some random locker.   This is a welcome change. 

Agreed - an inventory doesth not makest an RPG.

Yes, inventory alone does not make a RPG.  Neither character customization alone makes a RPG.  Neither does gaining experience and leveling up alone makes a RPG.  Neither does character choices in dialogue alone makes a RPG.

Put them altogether you have a RPG.  With one or more missing, you do not have a RPG.

[grimeyhippy]

1Parmenides wrote...

I'm an RPG fan. I rarely play FPS's.  But I must say, I love the inventory system (or lack thereof) in this game.  

I'm glad Bioware saw that you don't have to have 150 items in your magic invisible backpack in order for this to be an RPG.  Shepard's armor should be custom fit anyways, not looted from some random locker.   This is a welcome change. 

qft

[nicodeemus327]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

1Parmenides wrote...

I'm an RPG fan. I rarely play FPS's.  But I must say, I love the inventory system (or lack thereof) in this game.  

I'm glad Bioware saw that you don't have to have 150 items in your magic invisible backpack in order for this to be an RPG.  Shepard's armor should be custom fit anyways, not looted from some random locker.   This is a welcome change. 

Agreed - an inventory doesth not makest an RPG.

Yes, inventory alone does not make a RPG.  Neither character customization alone makes a RPG.  Neither does gaining experience and leveling up alone makes a RPG.  Neither does character choices in dialogue alone makes a RPG.

Put them altogether you have a RPG.  With one or more missing, you do not have a RPG.

Role playing is what makes an RPG.

[ufoflieger]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

1Parmenides wrote...

I'm an RPG fan. I rarely play FPS's.  But I must say, I love the inventory system (or lack thereof) in this game.  

I'm glad Bioware saw that you don't have to have 150 items in your magic invisible backpack in order for this to be an RPG.  Shepard's armor should be custom fit anyways, not looted from some random locker.   This is a welcome change. 

You may welcome it, but I don't.  How the hell are we suppose to armor up our squad?  Oh that's right, we don't.  While it is okay for Shepherd to be armored in the top gear, Garrus gets to keep his broken ass armor.  I guess that is better than Jack running in a gun fight HALF FRAKIN' NAKED!

Totally agreed.

[MoonChildTheUnholy]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...



Inventory? what inventory guys theres nothing now {smilie}



We cant even sell stuff or trade materials from boring scans {smilie}

A inventory is just a list of goods and materials. The armor customization and upgrade screens are inventories. Hell, the weapon selection screen is an inventory as well.

Dumbed down inventories, an inventory is a list of goods i can manage, sell, restock, an so on. In ME2 you just choose what you want to equip, that´s it.. you can´t sell anything either, the equipment does not scale ever, going a bit further the equipment has no stats, just that little boost to shield or some other ability, really.. how can you guys call yourselves rpg fans if things like this are nothing to you, an rpg isn´t just this but if customization is out the window then i can´t call ME2 an rpg.

[Darthain]

I agree the new weapon system and its removal of an inventory was a nice change. 

[yuncas]

No Dice OP. Needs to find a middle ground between stuffed to the gills with identical crap that has no use and the barren wasteland that is ME2 inventory. Needs light and medium armor too.

[MoonChildTheUnholy]

They went too far, i want mods, i want squad armors, i want to choose what upgrades to put in my armors.

All this is out the window and it sucks.

[nicodeemus327]

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

Inventory? what inventory guys theres nothing now {smilie}

We cant even sell stuff or trade materials from boring scans {smilie}

A inventory is just a list of goods and materials. The armor customization and upgrade screens are inventories. Hell, the weapon selection screen is an inventory as well.

Dumbed down inventories, an inventory is a list of goods i can manage, sell, restock, an so on. In ME2 you just choose what you want to equip, that´s it.. you can´t sell anything either, the equipment does not scale ever, going a bit further the equipment has no stats, just that little boost to shield or some other ability, really.. how can you guys call yourselves rpg fans if things like this are nothing to you, an rpg isn´t just this but if customization is out the window then i can´t call ME2 an rpg.

Nope, an inventory is just a list. Nothing more, nothing less. The selling aspect isn't part of it. All these extra things you mention have nothing to do with RPGs. You can customize in ME 2.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 08 février 2010 - 10:16 .

[nicodeemus327]

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

They went too far, i want mods, i want squad armors, i want to choose what upgrades to put in my armors.
All this is out the window and it sucks.

I will admit armor customization for squad mates would have been nice. That's my only real gripe with the "RPG aspect". It worked for Shepard. Too bad they didn't do it for everyone else.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 08 février 2010 - 10:18 .

[Killian Kalthorne]

nicodeemus327 wrote...
You can customize in ME 2.

REALLY?!?!

Then go on right ahead and show us how we can customize Miranda's armor with all the mods and doodads that Shepherd gets.  How about Garrus?  Jack?

After all you just said we can customize in ME2, well I want to customize my squads' armor.

SHOW US HOW OH GREAT ONE!

[yuncas]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

They went too far, i want mods, i want squad armors, i want to choose what upgrades to put in my armors.
All this is out the window and it sucks.

I will admit armor customization for squad mates would have been nice. That's my only real gripe with the "RPG aspect". It worked for Shepard. Too bad they didn't do it for everyone else.

It's because they were poor. Poor people only get two pairs of clothes in the future.