50 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

'Drain Life' looks like a duck and it's quacking....

[SurelyForth]

I think the biggest distinction is that you cannot control someone else with any of the Entropy spells. From what I've gathered, besides the power blood mages possess, there is the mind control component and, I guess, the whole boiling blood/using others as mana thing.



There are several iffy spells that seem just as bad as any blood magic. I mean, Virulent Walking Bomb is pretty comparable to Blood Wound and my mages walk around blowing people up all the time and nobody seems to mind.

[errant_knight]

I have to say that a lot of that school seems like 'allowed' blood magic. I think a mage might have to be pretty boarderline in their beliefs to go there.

I think you've probably hit on the biggest distinction, but it still seems...not good.

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 février 2010 - 04:40 .

[soteria]

Because it's not powered by blood? All blood magic spells are: hence, the requirement to have blood magic active to cast blood wound, blood sacrifice, and blood control. 

Using your same logic, the circle mages use blood magic to send you into the fade.  Except, they don't, because the spell they cast isn't powered by blood--as opposed to Jowan's.

Modifié par soteria, 08 février 2010 - 04:42 .

[Sarielle]

soteria wrote...

Because it's not powered by blood? All blood magic spells are: hence, the requirement to have blood magic active to cast blood wound, blood sacrifice, and blood control.

I think the OP was more commenting on how it's allowed but blood magic is not.

I think because it lacks the mind-control component, and also probably because the game at least likes to pair blood magic w/ demonology.

[soteria]

But it's the same answer, really. Even when Jowan uses his own blood to power his spells, or a willing participant's, the Chantry still reacts negatively to blood magic, as seen by Alistair et al's reactions. The results (power to control minds) is only half the reason the Chantry hates blood magic. The other half is the source (demons, using blood).

[errant_knight]

Sarielle wrote...

soteria wrote...

Because it's not powered by blood? All blood magic spells are: hence, the requirement to have blood magic active to cast blood wound, blood sacrifice, and blood control.

I think the OP was more commenting on how it's allowed but blood magic is not.

I think because it lacks the mind-control component, and also probably because the game at least likes to pair blood magic w/ demonology.

Yeah, I know it's not powered by blood, but it's just as bad in effect. Blood magic has additional evils, such as using the lives of others to power it, mind control,  and what is apparently an increased risk of abominations and the like (I don't know if that's in practice, or if using the lives of others to increase your power makes trafficking with demons to gain even more not seem like a real big leap). In any case, it doesn't seem like something the circle should be encouraging, or the Chantry should allow.

Look at 'Drain Life'. You're sucking the life out of something to heal yourself. Not very different from using another's life to give yourself mana.

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 février 2010 - 05:08 .

[soteria]

But they should allow Arcane Bolt, Inferno, Fireball, and Mana Clash? I don't understand.

[errant_knight]

soteria wrote...

But they should allow Arcane Bolt, Inferno, Fireball, and Mana Clash? I don't understand.

Both blood magic and some entropy drain life force for the gain of the magic user, whereas spells like arcane bolt and fireball are the magic equivalent of arrows and fire bombs.

If you don't see a difference, I guess you don't see blood magic as wrong?

To me, using blood magic is like being a vampire by choice when there's a grocery store just down the block. You can shoot someone in self defense, but eating them is frowned upon.

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 février 2010 - 05:17 .

[soteria]

It really has nothing to do with what I think is right or wrong so much as what the Chantry believes. What is it about the Chantry's teachings on blood magic that makes you think they would see drain life as evil? Death Syphon isn't even an entropy spell, by the way--and while we're talking about Spirit spells, if you read the codices, Spirit seems to be regarded with more suspicion than Entropy, IIRC.

[errant_knight]

soteria wrote...

It really has nothing to do with what I think is right or wrong so much as what the Chantry believes. What is it about the Chantry's teachings on blood magic that makes you think they would see drain life as evil? Death Syphon isn't even an entropy spell, by the way--and while we're talking about Spirit spells, if you read the codices, Spirit seems to be regarded with more suspicion than Entropy, IIRC.

Well, I was trying to find a way to communicate a difference that you weren't seeing, and I thought that it would be helpful to see if you saw a difference between blood magic and ther rest of it. But no matter....

The Chantry thing is my point. They should see the commonalities. Blood magic, yeah, bad, but so are some of the spells they allow. There must be some reasoning behind it, but I can't figure out what it is. The only significant difference between blood magic and drain life is that blood magic creates magical power rather than giving increased life force to the user. Perhaps that's it, but it seems to lack a certain logic.

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 février 2010 - 05:26 .

[draxynnus]

soteria wrote...

Because it's not powered by blood? All blood magic spells are: hence, the requirement to have blood magic active to cast blood wound, blood sacrifice, and blood control. 

I think this is pretty much it. Drain Life may transfer life energy, and it's probably an important part of every Blood Mage's toolbox, but it doesn't actually require Blood Magic to use. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and the Chantry happens to have drawn it here.

That said, while it's not mentioned specifically in the lore, I suspect mages who specialise in Entropy are regarded more suspiciously than those who specialise in Creation or Primal. It's not just the Draining line - the Sleep and, to a lesser extent, Debilitating lines also have some connection to Blood Magic in that they exert control over another's body. However, because of its potential usefulness to Blood Mages, the Draining line is probably one that merits extra supervision of any mages known to employ it - however, the line had to be drawn somewhere, and the Chantry evidently decided to draw it at the point where the mage draws on life energy instead of, or as well as, mana.

Personally, in my mental map of how the various forms of magic relate to each other, blood magic resides in the area where Spirit and Entropy meet, between Death and Draining. Both employ powers that you would expect the Chantry to consider dodgy (Death is possibly even worse, since Death Siphon allows you to gain magical power instead of simple healing from the deaths of others and then you get necromancy which canonically involves inviting a demon or spirit to inhabit a corpse - this line on its own is probably responsible for Spirit's bad reputation) but as long as you don't go into a mode where you burn your own life energy to cast spells, the Chantry is willing to leave it at eyeing you suspiciously for any signs that you might start doing so rather than going straight to the accusations of maleficarhood.

Of course, some areas may prove to be more hardline about it than Ferelden.

The reason for it may well be pragmatism - while the Reverend Mother at Ostagar doesn't seem to like it, it seems fairly well-known that magic is a useful, if dangerous, weapon to have around - especially since it was, if I remember rightly, one of the decisive factors against the technologically superior qunari. It's possible, in fact, that the qunari war has resulted in the line being pushed back as far as it could reasonably go in order to maximise the potency of mages loyal to the Chantry on the battlefield.

Modifié par draxynnus, 08 février 2010 - 05:53 .

[errant_knight]

draxynnus wrote...

soteria wrote...

Because it's not powered by blood? All blood magic spells are: hence, the requirement to have blood magic active to cast blood wound, blood sacrifice, and blood control. 

I think this is pretty much it. Drain Life may transfer life energy, and it's probably an important part of every Blood Mage's toolbox, but it doesn't actually require Blood Magic to use. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and the Chantry happens to have drawn it here.

That said, while it's not mentioned specifically in the lore, I suspect mages who specialise in Entropy are regarded more suspiciously than those who specialise in Creation or Primal. It's not just the Draining line - the Sleep and, to a lesser extent, Debilitating lines also have some connection to Blood Magic in that they exert control over another's body. However, because of its potential usefulness to Blood Mages, the Draining line is probably one that merits extra supervision of any mages known to employ it - however, the line had to be drawn somewhere, and the Chantry evidently decided to draw it at the point where the mage draws on life energy instead of, or as well as, mana.

Personally, in my mental map of how the various forms of magic relate to each other, blood magic resides in the area where Spirit and Entropy meet, between Death and Draining. Both employ powers that you would expect the Chantry to consider dodgy (Death is possibly even worse, since Death Siphon allows you to gain magical power instead of simple healing from the deaths of others and then you get necromancy which canonically involves inviting a demon or spirit to inhabit a corpse - this line on its own is probably responsible for Spirit's bad reputation) but as long as you don't go into a mode where you burn your own life energy to cast spells, the Chantry is willing to leave it at eyeing you suspiciously for any signs that you might start doing so rather than going straight to the accusations of maleficarhood.

Of course, some areas may prove to be more hardline about it than Ferelden.

The reason for it may well be pragmatism - while the Reverend Mother at Ostagar doesn't seem to like it, it seems fairly well-known that magic is a useful, if dangerous, weapon to have around - especially since it was, if I remember rightly, one of the decisive factors against the technologically superior qunari. It's possible, in fact, that the qunari war has resulted in the line being pushed back as far as it could reasonably go in order to maximise the potency of mages loyal to the Chantry on the battlefield.

Okay, that all makes sense. That's exactly the kind of explanation I was looking for. Thanks! The usefulness of magic against the Qunari is a particularly interesting point, and I like your analysis of where blood magic fits into the lawful schools. Very good!

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 février 2010 - 06:03 .

[soteria]

I guess I see a difference between healing yourself while killing your enemy and healing yourself while killing your allies, if you're trying to draw a parallel between drain life and blood sacrifice. One has a use directly related to surviving in combt, and the other is just using someone else's life to empower yourself. It's a significant difference.



In gameplay, sure, blood sacrifice is just a heal, and is only different from drain life in that it targets allies. In effect, though, since a blood mage's health IS his mana and source of power, you're using other people's life force to power your spells. It's really not the same at all, since a regular mage casting drain life is only healing himself (and a blood mage casting drain life would get no benefit).

[draxynnus]

Glad to be of service. It's something I'd been cogitating on myself, in fact (the "mental map" referred to isn't exactly entirely mental - I've actually tried to nut it out on paper, but not everything lines up as nicely as Death-Blood-Draining, and it gets really complicated when you start adding magical non-mage specialisations like Templar).



Incidentally, the Blood Mage does get something from Drain Life - they get to dish out untyped damage for free, and if they have a high Spellpower and/or a precast Vulnerability Hex, they can get a life energy return as well.

[Maria Caliban]

errant_knight wrote...

Look at 'Drain Life'. You're sucking the life out of something to heal yourself. Not very different from using another's life to give yourself mana.

It's actually very different. Mages are limited by the amount of mana they have, draining life for mana gives them unlimited power.

The ritual to enter the Golden City wasn't something any mage or group of mages could have done on their own. They needed to sacrafice hundreds of slaves to accomplish it.

[soteria]

Incidentally, the Blood Mage does get something from Drain Life - they get to dish out untyped damage for free, and if they have a high Spellpower and/or a precast Vulnerability Hex, they can get a life energy return as well.

Are you hypothesizing or is this something you've actually tested? In the very best of conditions you might just about cover the initial casting cost.



Regardless, it's a semantic argument that has nothing to do with the point I was making.

[errant_knight]

Maria Caliban wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Look at 'Drain Life'. You're sucking the life out of something to heal yourself. Not very different from using another's life to give yourself mana.

It's actually very different. Mages are limited by the amount of mana they have, draining life for mana gives them unlimited power.

The ritual to enter the Golden City wasn't something any mage or group of mages could have done on their own. They needed to sacrafice hundreds of slaves to accomplish it.

Ah, so there's a whole other level of danger involved with that kind of magic, the possibility of things that even a large group of mages working in conjunction couldn't accomplish.... That's an important difference, isn't it?

[draxynnus]

soteria wrote...

Incidentally, the Blood Mage does get something from Drain Life - they get to dish out untyped damage for free, and if they have a high Spellpower and/or a precast Vulnerability Hex, they can get a life energy return as well.

Are you hypothesizing or is this something you've actually tested? In the very best of conditions you might just about cover the initial casting cost.

Regardless, it's a semantic argument that has nothing to do with the point I was making.

I'm working off the statistics on the Dragon Age wiki, which put the activation at 20 and the health drained at 20+0.2*Spellpower. So somewhere in between the two positions - I haven't tested it myself, but I do have a source for the figures, and I'm presuming whoever put up the figures has done some testing.

[soteria]

...and the penalty to healing from having blood magic active? And like I said, it really doesn't do anything for the blood mage. "An efficient damage spell? Joy, I *really* need one of those as I power my spells off someone else's life force."

[Lotion Soronarr]

errant_knight wrote...
Yeah, I know it's not powered by blood, but it's just as bad in effect.

And burning someone alive isn't? Or freezing him? Watch that train of thought, follow it for too long and the only logical conclusion would be to bann all magic except healing.


That said, how many cicle mages actually use entropy spells?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 08 février 2010 - 07:02 .

[Maria Caliban]

errant_knight wrote...

Ah, so there's a whole other level of danger involved with that kind of magic, the possibility of things that even a large group of mages working in conjunction couldn't accomplish.... That's an important difference, isn't it?

From the Chantry's viewpoint, blood magic is far more evil and dangerous than any other form of magic for a number of reasons.

1. It's unnatural: According to the Chantry (and the Circle) everything in creation is balanced. Each school of magic has an 'opposite' school that balances it on a metaphysical level. Primal <-> Spirit. Creation <-> Entropy. Blood magic is an aberration as there’s nothing balancing it out.

2. It allows more power than any other school: Other schools of magic are limited by the willpower and skill of the mage, or mages in the case of a ritual. As I said in the previous post, as long as your have enough people to sacrifice, there is no limit to a mage’s power.

3. The Imperium used it: The Imperium conquered all of Thedas, something they probably would not have done without blood magic. They enslaved elves and humans across Thedas and a large number of those slaves were sacrificed so the Imperium could have the power to conquer and enslave more people. If it weren’t for the First Blight, everyone in Thedas would be under the Imperium’s boot heel and the lives of non-mages would be worth nothing.

This, again, is the Chantry’s viewpoint.

[errant_knight]

Maria Caliban wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Ah, so there's a whole other level of danger involved with that kind of magic, the possibility of things that even a large group of mages working in conjunction couldn't accomplish.... That's an important difference, isn't it?

From the Chantry's viewpoint, blood magic is far more evil and dangerous than any other form of magic for a number of reasons.

1. It's unnatural: According to the Chantry (and the Circle) everything in creation is balanced. Each school of magic has an 'opposite' school that balances it on a metaphysical level. Primal Spirit. Creation Entropy. Blood magic is an aberration as there’s nothing balancing it out.

2. It allows more power than any other school: Other schools of magic are limited by the willpower and skill of the mage, or mages in the case of a ritual. As I said in the previous post, as long as your have enough people to sacrifice, there is no limit to a mage’s power.

3. The Imperium used it: The Imperium conquered all of Thedas, something they probably would not have done without blood magic. They enslaved elves and humans across Thedas and a large number of those slaves were sacrificed so the Imperium could have the power to conquer and enslave more people. If it weren’t for the First Blight, everyone in Thedas would be under the Imperium’s boot heel and the lives of non-mages would be worth nothing.

This, again, is the Chantry’s viewpoint.

Thanks for the detailed and clear summary. Can't say I disagree with them, I'm just not sure they go far enough.... Although given that they go way too far in other areas, perhaps that's for the best.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Yeah, I know it's not powered by blood, but it's just as bad in effect.

And burning someone alive isn't? Or freezing him? Watch that train of thought, follow it for too long and the only logical conclusion would be to bann all magic except healing.

No, not really. As I mentioned earlier, offensive spells have direct corollaries in offensive weapons: fire bomb, etc. There's no practical difference in burning someone alive with an incindiary device and a fireball. The argument could be made that both are bad, but that would make for a dull combat game. In any case burning someone with magic is no better or worse that burning someone with a flask of oil.

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 février 2010 - 07:17 .

[draxynnus]

soteria wrote...

...and the penalty to healing from having blood magic active? And like I said, it really doesn't do anything for the blood mage. "An efficient damage spell? Joy, I *really* need one of those as I power my spells off someone else's life force."

Right, let's test this...ohhhh, Joooowannnnn...

...and it seems that, counterintuitively, the penalty to healing does apply to Life Drain. Which, if deliberate and not an oversight, appears to further seperate blood magic and entropy - the two aren't as compatible as they initially appear.

Which is a shame, since the Draining line did seem a convenient way of how bloodmages could draw power from unwilling targets without necessarily having to go to the effort of controlling them first - without that effect, the blood sacrifice mechanic could be modelled simply by having the bloodmage stand in a pile of victims with Death Magic running. Although I suppose they could still do that if they were constantly turning Blood Magic on and off...

[Stuffy38]

It is spelled differently.