50 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

Stuffy38 wrote...

It is spelled differently.

Thanks for contributing.

[Stuffy38]

My pleasure.

[errant_knight]

Yeah. Okay. Do you have any actual thoughts on the subject, or have you just become lost on your way to another thread?

[soteria]

Don't feed the trolls.

[Stuffy38]

Hey I'm not trolling, I just skipped lunch and had too much beer on an empty stomach.

I thought the whole idea with Blood Magic was just using blood - either the casters, or some other poor victim - to fuel a bunch of spells.  Entropy, on the other hand, seems to be more about sapping stamina / energy from the target or those funky, ever useful hexes.  You don't seem to be actually controlling the target, which is why I thought Blood Magic was demonised as it is.

Modifié par Stuffy38, 08 février 2010 - 09:09 .

[jsachun]

Answer is simple. Entropy allows taking of blood of enemies where as blood magic allows using your own as well as your allies. Therefore blood magic is considered hostile magic & not friendly magic.

Modifié par jsachun, 08 février 2010 - 09:07 .

[errant_knight]

Stuffy38 wrote...

Hey I'm not trolling, I just skipped lunch and had too much beer on an empty stomach.

I thought the whole idea with Blood Magic was just using blood - either the casters, or some other poor victim - to fuel a bunch of spells.  Entropy, on the other hand, seems to be more about sapping stamina / energy from the target or those funky, ever useful hexes.  You don't seem to be actually controlling the target, which is why I thought Blood Magic was demonised as it is.

Ah, been there, done that! My thinking was that there was so little practical difference between the more repugnant spirit/entropy spells and blood magic that you't think they'd have more issues with it, but people have had some great explanations for that.

jsachun wrote...

Answer is simple. Entropy allows taking of blood of enemies where as blood magic allows using your own as well as your allies. Therefore blood magic is considered hostile magic & not friendly magic.

Only a game mechanic keeps you from using entropy and spirit spells against anyone you want. You're also not allowed to stab your allies, but you could.

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 février 2010 - 04:45 .

[guytza]

Blood magic has been a little bit of a thorn in my brain since I tried it out.



First of all, I'm not 100% sold on the demon/blood magic connection.

Demons want to make you a deal you cant resist, therefore they offer a power that you cant otherwise get. They offer blood magic.



My question is, is blood magic forbidden because it comes from demons or do demons offer blood magic because it is forbidden?



Interestingly I also think that Blood Magic is the more natural form of spell casting than what the circle mages are doing. Wynne tells the story of how she accidently lit some boys head on fire. This was before anyone started pumping her full of lyrium. Dalish Keepers use magic, but since the chantry and dwarves are controlling the lyrium trade they are out of the loop for the resource.



Maybe its like magical steroids, performance enhancing but not absolutely needed.

[SusanStoHelit]

This post by David Gaider might be useful:

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I think the blood mage manipulates the blood of the vitcim and not necessarily his mind / spirit. So it would seem like the victim would still be conscious, but his body would be manipulated against his will. Unless of course manipulating the blood also leads to the manipulation of organs, in which case the mind would also be controlled. Sounds like a pleasant experience.

This is it. Someone who is under the control of a blood mage is having their body controlled but not their mind. They are trapped in their body, unable to speak or act, and could indeed be forced to kill themselves -- there is no such thing as a "save vs. charm" idea.

This fact is not really consistent, however. There is evidence of some blood mages having the ability to exert influence over someone's mind -- almost a form of hypnosis, really, where the target is not controlled so much as they earnestly believe what the blood mage wishes them to believe. This is probably a seperate power from the normal ability to just control someone outright, and not simply a spell they can whip off on a moment's notice.

You can read that as "I'm leaving my options open", if you like. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png I'd like to get into a more complete exploration of what blood mages are capable of in the future -- not the least of which is the summoning of demons. Ultimately I think it's a difference of a regular mage who's exploring blood magic and one who's dedicated and has  researched the possibilities. Even so, either way I think you can see why regular people might find this idea very frightening, and the idea of a blood mage gaining access to a someone in a position of power very threatening. Blood magic isn't inherently evil, but the temptation to do evil when you have the power to bend others to your will must be insidious.

Edit: If you want the actual link, here you go: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/631964/1#638830

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 09 février 2010 - 11:40 .

[soteria]

Interestingly I also think that Blood Magic is the more natural form of spell casting than what the circle mages are doing. Wynne tells the story of how she accidently lit some boys head on fire. This was before anyone started pumping her full of lyrium. Dalish Keepers use magic, but since the chantry and dwarves are controlling the lyrium trade they are out of the loop for the resource.

I think you misunderstand mana. Lyrium restores mana, sure, but it doesn't equal mana. Mages can cast without it. How do you think apostates like Flemeth and Morrigan cast spells in the Korcari Wilds with no ready access to lyrium?

[Nilbeny]

Blood magic would be the act of directly powering one's spells through a sacrifice of life energy, whereas Entropy, fueled either by blood magic or 'conventional' spellcasting, is a class of spells that have the effect of destroying/draining energy, the fundamental opposite of Creation magic.

As for the effects of the blood magic specific spells, they seem to distinguish themselves from Entropy by focusing on manipulating life energy rather than outright destroying it.

Modifié par Nilbeny, 10 février 2010 - 03:39 .

[draxynnus]

Nilbeny wrote...

Blood magic would be the act of directly powering one's spells through a sacrifice of life energy, whereas Entropy, fueled either by blood magic or 'conventional' spellcasting, is a class of spells that have the effect of destroying/draining energy, the fundamental opposite of Creation magic.

As for the effects of the blood magic specific spells, they seem to distinguish themselves from Entropy by focusing on manipulating life energy rather than outright destroying it.

Except for Drain Life and Death Magic...which brings us back full circle.

However, there seems to be innate incompatibility between these skills and blood magic - the penalty to healing while Blood Magic is active DOES apply, which is probably the best indication that they aren't actually a kind of "blood-magic-light".

[Janni-in-VA]

I see that several posters have done a really nice job in explaining the major differences between entropic spells and blood magic. As I understand it, blood magic involves not only the use of blood from a living being to power its spells, it also involves mind control, which of course means that the victim need not be willing. The Chantry's position is clearly stated and taken directly from the Chant of Light--"Magic is meant to serve man and never to rule over him." I also agree that blood magic harms one's allies, the very persons you are supposed to be helping and protecting, while other schools of magic harm only one's enemies (barring, of course, friendly fire from AoE spells.)



I think that there's also a component of, I'm not sure what to call it, ease(?) in blood magic. It seems that blood magic has the potential of providing more power than the mage in question may be ready or able to control. (If you've played the mage origin story, then you know how Jowan, an apprentice mage, was able to escape much more powerful and experienced mages.) Therein, perhaps, lies the demonic threat? Any speculation as to how this might have led to Connor's possession in Redcliff?

[errant_knight]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

I see that several posters have done a really nice job in explaining the major differences between entropic spells and blood magic. As I understand it, blood magic involves not only the use of blood from a living being to power its spells, it also involves mind control, which of course means that the victim need not be willing. The Chantry's position is clearly stated and taken directly from the Chant of Light--"Magic is meant to serve man and never to rule over him." I also agree that blood magic harms one's allies, the very persons you are supposed to be helping and protecting, while other schools of magic harm only one's enemies (barring, of course, friendly fire from AoE spells.)

I think that there's also a component of, I'm not sure what to call it, ease(?) in blood magic. It seems that blood magic has the potential of providing more power than the mage in question may be ready or able to control. (If you've played the mage origin story, then you know how Jowan, an apprentice mage, was able to escape much more powerful and experienced mages.) Therein, perhaps, lies the demonic threat? Any speculation as to how this might have led to Connor's possession in Redcliff?

I'll have to think about the Conner thing.... I wonder if he got into some books of Jowan's and taught himself a little blood magic, enough to do more in the fade than he should have been able to at his age and skill level? I've always wondered a bit about Conner. He's a creepy kid even after the demon was gone. i wonder how creepy he might have been beforehand?

To sumarized and speculate on blood magic a little.... It can control minds, and that's bad. It can allow the user to do more powerful things than they could otherwise do. That would be good or bad depending on what they wanted to do, but comes down on the bad side if they're sucking the life out of someone else to do it. Hmm..... It seems to me, that outside of the mind control, the biggest 'bad' about blood magic is the temptation to use other people's lives to power it--kind of a slow slide to the darkside, assuming you didn't feel okay about that right away.

I can see it beginning innocently enough... You're in a battle, your party is being defeated, so you rationalize. 'I'll just grab a little more power, just this once, it's for a good cause.' Then next time, it's just that much easier to do it again, to take a little more.... Pretty soon, you're draining the life out of people on a regular basis.

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 février 2010 - 02:08 .

[errant_knight]

m14567 wrote...

 I think the line blurs quite a bit with some of the spells, some of the entropy spells do seem "evil" in essence, such as death hex or death cloud.
Something that made me laugh was dueling "the bad guy" at the landsmeet, I put Alistair forward but he got beaten senseless, so I tried with my mage. To beat him I think I used something like sleep, vulnerability hex, horror, death cloud, death hex.  Nothing but good clean chantry approved magic 

That's hysterical! And almost as nonsensical as Wynne being able to be spec'd as a bloodmage. Some duel of honor, huh?

(There was something seriously wrong with your Alistair stats on that playthrough. He can take Loghain handily. The only time it's been touch-and-go was the playthrough where I had him in veridium armor and nothing stronger than lesser health poultices.

[SusanStoHelit]

Yes, Alistair will wipe the floor with Loghain if specced properly. Which doesn't say much for Loghain, since Al is a tank and not dps.

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Yes, Alistair will wipe the floor with Loghain if specced properly. Which doesn't say much for Loghain, since Al is a tank and not dps.

Although I play him as a cross between the two. He's very adaptable.  He really, really doesn't like blood magic, though, so there are limits to his adaptable nature.

[draxynnus]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Yes, Alistair will wipe the floor with Loghain if specced properly. Which doesn't say much for Loghain, since Al is a tank and not dps.

Well, Loggy's also S&S, and one of his main threats is knockdown (enhanced War Cry, Shield Bash, Overpower...) - all you need is Shield Wall with the no-knockdown enhancement and you can laugh at all of those.

[Sarethus]

guytza wrote...

Blood magic has been a little bit of a thorn in my brain since I tried it out.

First of all, I'm not 100% sold on the demon/blood magic connection.
Demons want to make you a deal you cant resist, therefore they offer a power that you cant otherwise get. They offer blood magic.

My question is, is blood magic forbidden because it comes from demons or do demons offer blood magic because it is forbidden? 

Here's a link as to the reasoning behind the Chantry's decision. Also while Blood Magic originally came from demons, you can learn it from books as well.  

Interestingly I also think that Blood Magic is the more natural form of spell casting than what the circle mages are doing. Wynne tells the story of how she accidently lit some boys head on fire. This was before anyone started pumping her full of lyrium. Dalish Keepers use magic, but since the chantry and dwarves are controlling the lyrium trade they are out of the loop for the resource.

Maybe its like magical steroids, performance enhancing but not absolutely needed.

You don't need Lyrium for ordinary magic, although it does make them easier to use.

To the OP

Your taking the word 'blood' in blood magic to literally. Blood magic is defined as magic that uses blood/life force as a fuel source or magic that takes control over another person if I remember the codex entry right. Now if you use this fuel source a mage can do some things that he couldn't do if he used ordinary fuel (magic).  Also you might want to look at the link I posted above as well. It contains a codex entry as to why certain magics are forbidden.

[errant_knight]

Sarethus wrote...

guytza wrote...

Blood magic has been a little bit of a thorn in my brain since I tried it out.

First of all, I'm not 100% sold on the demon/blood magic connection.
Demons want to make you a deal you cant resist, therefore they offer a power that you cant otherwise get. They offer blood magic.

My question is, is blood magic forbidden because it comes from demons or do demons offer blood magic because it is forbidden? 

Here's a link as to the reasoning behind the Chantry's decision. Also while Blood Magic originally came from demons, you can learn it from books as well.  

Interestingly I also think that Blood Magic is the more natural form of spell casting than what the circle mages are doing. Wynne tells the story of how she accidently lit some boys head on fire. This was before anyone started pumping her full of lyrium. Dalish Keepers use magic, but since the chantry and dwarves are controlling the lyrium trade they are out of the loop for the resource.

Maybe its like magical steroids, performance enhancing but not absolutely needed.

You don't need Lyrium for ordinary magic, although it does make them easier to use.

To the OP

Your taking the word 'blood' in blood magic to literally. Blood magic is defined as magic that uses blood/life force as a fuel source or magic that takes control over another person if I remember the codex entry right. Now if you use this fuel source a mage can do some things that he couldn't do if he used ordinary fuel (magic).  Also you might want to look at the link I posted above as well. It contains a codex entry as to why certain magics are forbidden.

Thanks for the link! Okay, so entropy/spirit magic is okay because it isn't fueled by life force, and because it doesn't control minds. Got it!  I probably would have painted with a wider brush, but hey, it's their chantry.

[Vertrothe]

Yeah, always struck me as somehow odd to get lectured by Alistair about the evils of blood magic after he'd watched my mage Virulent Walking Bomb literally hundreds of people. Blood everywhere, there was! So some of the regular spells are pretty creepy, but it's the origins that make Blood magic so particularly reviled. I'd been wondering that and this thread helped clear that up. Thanks!

[guytza]

Yeah, maybe its the Dalish in me, but I have trouble trusting anything involving the Chantry or the Maker.



I still find it very odd that a style of magic that involves the manipulation of blood is taught by creatures that have no physical form. The analyst in me gets hung up on data points that make a logical jump. But I suppose the addition of LifeForce in addition to Blood does explain it a bit more.



It's an interesting concept to postulate at least, keeps the brain from atrophy.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

I had an odd thought the other day.



What if demons teach blood magic in order to sully it’s reputation? What if that form of magic itself isn’t really “good” or “evil” … it’s just easily abused by the weak or corrupt?



While it’s true that Blood Magic doesn’t affect demons directly, it does it allow normal mages to cast spells far longer than they could normally do otherwise. If you are a demon who would you rather use this magic? The folks on your side or the ones who might use it to fuel their spells against you?



By teaching Blood Magic to the folks who are naturally inclined to deal with them demons get a win / win / win.



The mage who learns this magic from them is unlikely to oppose many of their plans directly for various reasons … chief among them will probably be his moral “flexibility.”



Second said mages are likely to focus on blood magic to the exclusion of other forms once they learn it because it’s so powerful … thus be less likely to be able to affect demons even should they oppose them. Clearly this isn’t going to hold true for the really powerful mages like the Warden and the NPCs, but they are exceptions anyway.



Third by spreading this magic among the easily corrupted the demons increase the odds that the mage will corrupt himself without further effort on the demons part. We don’t know about the ramifications of this soul wise, but clearly at the least the reputation of the magic will be sullied as it will be associated with “evil” mages and corrupt actions.



The next result of this last is that “good” mages are increasingly unlikely to learn or use Blood Magic even without the interference of outside groups like the Chantry.



Don’t get me wrong. I buy the “Blood Magic is evil” angle the game throws at you. I don’t try to rationalize “good” blood mages in game. Still this line of thought struck me as reasonable and plausible. It’s just like demons to deny folks effective tools to fight them … especially if said tools can be twisted to serve evil ends and given to their own servants.