101 réponses à ce sujet

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

SharpEdgeSoda is racist against machines...



I don't know what would be the academic term to use.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda is racist against machines...

I don't know what would be the academic term to use.

I deny nothing. Synthetics are a scourge.
 
I don't like the Geth. Anyone else I'm cool with, but I don't like the Geth. I don't like how the quarians made them in the first place, and honestly, they handled the situation very poorly, and I do believe them jumping strait to violence was a bad move.

Legion is merely an extension of the Geth network to me, not a individual person. He may help me now, he may be a "different eye" of the Geth, but they all work for the "consesus." There existence is there own private utupia, there are perfect, they are "sterile". Even from what we know now about the Geth, I will not shed a tear for them if they were wiped from existence.

And the best part is...

I love BioWare for enabling me to make a character that thinks this way. I make my Shep reflect the choices of my personal beliefs, and I will make the choices that I think are right, not what the game tells me is right. That's why I never liked the idea of "mesuring" ones morality.  

ME2 put forth a lot of ideas that breed "Geth Sympathy" but I will not succumb to it...not yet. Perhaps I will learn more in ME3 that will change my mind, but for now, I'm blowing up that station.

[Driving Ghost]

Seriously... have you talked to Admiral Xen? Thats the annoying one. Admiral vas Qwib-Qwib is quite reasonable if you talk to him in person.

[Sursion]

He is annoying, and an ass. But then again, he's the only one on the admiralty that I agree with.

[chool77]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda is racist against machines...

I don't know what would be the academic term to use.

I deny nothing. Synthetics are a scourge.
 
I don't like the Geth. Anyone else I'm cool with, but I don't like the Geth. I don't like how the quarians made them in the first place, and honestly, they handled the situation very poorly, and I do believe them jumping strait to violence was a bad move.

Legion is merely an extension of the Geth network to me, not a individual person. He may help me now, he may be a "different eye" of the Geth, but they all work for the "consesus." There existence is there own private utupia, there are perfect, they are "sterile". Even from what we know now about the Geth, I will not shed a tear for them if they were wiped from existence.

And the best part is...

I love BioWare for enabling me to make a character that thinks this way. I make my Shep reflect the choices of my personal beliefs, and I will make the choices that I think are right, not what the game tells me is right. That's why I never liked the idea of "mesuring" ones morality.  

ME2 put forth a lot of ideas that breed "Geth Sympathy" but I will not succumb to it...not yet. Perhaps I will learn more in ME3 that will change my mind, but for now, I'm blowing up that station.

well said good sir:police:

[Valmy]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

 The self-righteous one was the only admiral I did agree with.

Yeah I noticed that to.  The jerk Admiral was the only one who had a realistic perspective on what was best for the Quarians.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

chool77 wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda is racist against machines...

I don't know what would be the academic term to use.

I deny nothing. Synthetics are a scourge.
 
I don't like the Geth. Anyone else I'm cool with, but I don't like the Geth. I don't like how the quarians made them in the first place, and honestly, they handled the situation very poorly, and I do believe them jumping strait to violence was a bad move.

Legion is merely an extension of the Geth network to me, not a individual person. He may help me now, he may be a "different eye" of the Geth, but they all work for the "consesus." There existence is there own private utupia, there are perfect, they are "sterile". Even from what we know now about the Geth, I will not shed a tear for them if they were wiped from existence.

And the best part is...

I love BioWare for enabling me to make a character that thinks this way. I make my Shep reflect the choices of my personal beliefs, and I will make the choices that I think are right, not what the game tells me is right. That's why I never liked the idea of "mesuring" ones morality.  

ME2 put forth a lot of ideas that breed "Geth Sympathy" but I will not succumb to it...not yet. Perhaps I will learn more in ME3 that will change my mind, but for now, I'm blowing up that station.

well said good sir:police:

Honestly, the quarians should have made them solar powered, then if they revolt, block out the sun with permanent cloud cover.

It's the perfect plan!

[Inverness Moon]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda is racist against machines...

I don't know what would be the academic term to use.

I deny nothing. Synthetics are a scourge.
 
I don't like the Geth. Anyone else I'm cool with, but I don't like the Geth. I don't like how the quarians made them in the first place, and honestly, they handled the situation very poorly, and I do believe them jumping strait to violence was a bad move.

Legion is merely an extension of the Geth network to me, not a individual person. He may help me now, he may be a "different eye" of the Geth, but they all work for the "consesus." There existence is there own private utupia, there are perfect, they are "sterile". Even from what we know now about the Geth, I will not shed a tear for them if they were wiped from existence.

And the best part is...

I love BioWare for enabling me to make a character that thinks this way. I make my Shep reflect the choices of my personal beliefs, and I will make the choices that I think are right, not what the game tells me is right. That's why I never liked the idea of "mesuring" ones morality.  

ME2 put forth a lot of ideas that breed "Geth Sympathy" but I will not succumb to it...not yet. Perhaps I will learn more in ME3 that will change my mind, but for now, I'm blowing up that station.

You might learn more a bit sooner if you didn't ignore my counterarguments to yours.

[Nastrod]

All the admirals were using Tali as a political tool so I do not understand why Qwib Qwib is singled out.





Also I still say the Quarians are wrong. The wanted cheap labor so they built the geth. The geth then became self aware. They became a functioning race. The quarians did not even attempt to try to have talks, see if peace is possible, share the world or anything. Their first response was to surprise attack in hopes of killing them all quickly.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Alexandus wrote...

Firstly, the research that Admiral Morrigan advocates for, seizing control of geth, this path may bear fruit. Secondly, I think it wise for the Quarians to begin colonizing other worlds in preparation to taking back their homeworld, build up their strength.

Hacking the geth required reaper technology to perform according to Legion's loyalty mission. Unless the quarians have access to reaper computer systems, the chances of their hacking the geth are minimal.

If the Quarians can colonize other planets... The question becomes why don't they.

Lastly, consider this: With the Reapers advancing on the Milky Way, the Quarian preparations for war would be most advantageous for them and the galaxy at large, no?

I'd rather have geth on my side than quarians when it comes to the reapers, to be honest. Any way you slice it, the quarian fleet consists primarily of civilian ships filled with civilians. 

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Inverness Moon wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda is racist against machines...

I don't know what would be the academic term to use.

I deny nothing. Synthetics are a scourge.
 
I don't like the Geth. Anyone else I'm cool with, but I don't like the Geth. I don't like how the quarians made them in the first place, and honestly, they handled the situation very poorly, and I do believe them jumping strait to violence was a bad move.

Legion is merely an extension of the Geth network to me, not a individual person. He may help me now, he may be a "different eye" of the Geth, but they all work for the "consesus." There existence is there own private utupia, there are perfect, they are "sterile". Even from what we know now about the Geth, I will not shed a tear for them if they were wiped from existence.

And the best part is...

I love BioWare for enabling me to make a character that thinks this way. I make my Shep reflect the choices of my personal beliefs, and I will make the choices that I think are right, not what the game tells me is right. That's why I never liked the idea of "mesuring" ones morality.  

ME2 put forth a lot of ideas that breed "Geth Sympathy" but I will not succumb to it...not yet. Perhaps I will learn more in ME3 that will change my mind, but for now, I'm blowing up that station.

You might learn more a bit sooner if you didn't ignore my counterarguments to yours.

Forgive me if I'm not a fan of analyzing massive post block-by-block just to enter an electronic war of attrition over a personal opinion that BioWare allows me to have.

[Gill Kaiser]

I agree with his viewpoint on the Geth, especially after speaking to Legion. However, the guy is an ass.

[Lmaoboat]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Forgive me if I'm not a fan of analyzing massive post block-by-block just to enter an electronic war of attrition over a personal opinion that BioWare allows me to have.

You can't really claim that it's an opinion that Bioware allows you to have when it's based on ignoring the information they gave you. Unless you're just roleplaying as someone who doesn't know the whoel story, in which case you should be arguing in some RP forum or something.

[Schneidend]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

If the Quarians can colonize other planets... The question becomes why don't they.

It's safer and easier to stay on the fleet. Also, there's a strong cultural stigma against settling anywhere but the re-conquered homeworld.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Lmaoboat wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Forgive me if I'm not a fan of analyzing massive post block-by-block just to enter an electronic war of attrition over a personal opinion that BioWare allows me to have.

You can't really claim that it's an opinion that Bioware allows you to have when it's based on ignoring the information they gave you. Unless you're just roleplaying as someone who doesn't know the whoel story, in which case you should be arguing in some RP forum or something.

I exhausted Legion's dialogue, and I still believe that I wouldn't mind blowing up the Geth. I ignored nothing. I need more than a few words from one Geth to convince me otherwise. Perhaps seeing an actual Geth community, a possiblility of them actually contributing to the Galaxy as a whole, would disuade me, but for what has been presented in ME2, I still believe they are simply "machines."

Call it ignorance, I stand by my decision. No amount of dancing Geth is going to change that.  

[Riot Inducer]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda is racist against machines...

I don't know what would be the academic term to use.

I deny nothing. Synthetics are a scourge.
 
I don't like the Geth. Anyone else I'm cool with, but I don't like the Geth. I don't like how the quarians made them in the first place, and honestly, they handled the situation very poorly, and I do believe them jumping strait to violence was a bad move.

Legion is merely an extension of the Geth network to me, not a individual person. He may help me now, he may be a "different eye" of the Geth, but they all work for the "consesus." There existence is there own private utupia, there are perfect, they are "sterile". Even from what we know now about the Geth, I will not shed a tear for them if they were wiped from existence.

And the best part is...

I love BioWare for enabling me to make a character that thinks this way. I make my Shep reflect the choices of my personal beliefs, and I will make the choices that I think are right, not what the game tells me is right. That's why I never liked the idea of "mesuring" ones morality.  

ME2 put forth a lot of ideas that breed "Geth Sympathy" but I will not succumb to it...not yet. Perhaps I will learn more in ME3 that will change my mind, but for now, I'm blowing up that station.

I've got nothing against your position, it's what you want to believe however it is more than a little of an ignorant position to take. You must realize that your hate of synthetic life has you being no better than the heretic Geth and the Reapers who view organic life as an infestation to be removed. Only time will tell if you are better than them in that you can change your views that prohibit co-existence with anything not like yourself or if you will stay as stubborn as those you hate. 

At any rate reprogramming or destroying the Geth station never really struck me as much of a "hate synthetic vs synthetic sympathizer" choice. Reprogramming them is as it is stated the same as brainwashing an organic race to accept different views, it's so morally ambiguous that I usually opt to destroy the base as well even though you'd consider me a "Geth Sympathizer". Shepards logic is sound when destroying the station, "There is no guarantee they wouldn't come to the same conclusions again, that all organic life needs to be destroyed."

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Lmaoboat wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Forgive me if I'm not a fan of analyzing massive post block-by-block just to enter an electronic war of attrition over a personal opinion that BioWare allows me to have.

You can't really claim that it's an opinion that Bioware allows you to have when it's based on ignoring the information they gave you. Unless you're just roleplaying as someone who doesn't know the whoel story, in which case you should be arguing in some RP forum or something.

I exhausted Legion's dialogue, and I still believe that I wouldn't mind blowing up the Geth. I ignored nothing. I need more than a few words from one Geth to convince me otherwise. Perhaps seeing an actual Geth community, a possiblility of them actually contributing to the Galaxy as a whole, would disuade me, but for what has been presented in ME2, I still believe they are simply "machines." All they do is exist, and nothing more.

Call it ignorance, I stand by my decision. No amount of dancing Geth is going to change that.  

Modifié par SharpEdgeSoda, 08 février 2010 - 09:47 .

[Lmaoboat]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Forgive me if I'm not a fan of analyzing massive post block-by-block just to enter an electronic war of attrition over a personal opinion that BioWare allows me to have.

You can't really claim that it's an opinion that Bioware allows you to have when it's based on ignoring the information they gave you. Unless you're just roleplaying as someone who doesn't know the whoel story, in which case you should be arguing in some RP forum or something.

I exhausted Legion's dialogue, and I still believe that I wouldn't mind blowing up the Geth. I ignored nothing. I need more than a few words from one Geth to convince me otherwise. Perhaps seeing an actual Geth community, a possiblility of them actually contributing to the Galaxy as a whole, would disuade me, but for what has been presented in ME2, I still believe they are simply "machines." All they do is exist, and nothing more.

Call it ignorance, I stand by my decision. No amount of dancing Geth is going to change that.  

What makes a machine any diffrent than an organic lifeform besides chemestry?

[Splinter Cell 108]

I like him the best. Lol at Quib-Quib. He's the one that wants peace and if you talk to him, he doesn't turn out to be as bad as he looks like. The woman is crazy though, enslaving the Geth again? Really? I wasn't surprised Teyrn Loghain wanted to go to war though. It's interesting that they made the peace guy the most unlikable one. That is something you don't see very often. I told them not to go to war. The Quarians are needed and the Geth's actions were justified. Plus the Galaxy doesn't need other conflicts occuring while the Reapers are coming.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

Lmaoboat wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Forgive me if I'm not a fan of analyzing massive post block-by-block just to enter an electronic war of attrition over a personal opinion that BioWare allows me to have.

You can't really claim that it's an opinion that Bioware allows you to have when it's based on ignoring the information they gave you. Unless you're just roleplaying as someone who doesn't know the whoel story, in which case you should be arguing in some RP forum or something.

I exhausted Legion's dialogue, and I still believe that I wouldn't mind blowing up the Geth. I ignored nothing. I need more than a few words from one Geth to convince me otherwise. Perhaps seeing an actual Geth community, a possiblility of them actually contributing to the Galaxy as a whole, would disuade me, but for what has been presented in ME2, I still believe they are simply "machines." All they do is exist, and nothing more.

Call it ignorance, I stand by my decision. No amount of dancing Geth is going to change that.  

What makes a machine any diffrent than an organic lifeform besides chemestry?

In a strictly physical sense, nothing. But I ask myself what makes life beautiful, and that is the ability to create to fufill the needs brought upon by flaws. This creates both artistic and scientific contribution. The Geth have created, though so far it seems they do so only for the advancement of the Geth. There is nothing wrong with this, as the history of all races is marked with developing only for the sake of themselves. The difference is that I can see no intention to say, share this technology for the betterment of the galaxy. Geth see problem, Geth correct problem, then they simply exist, until another problem arises.

Now, not to say I havent been touched by Legion. I noticed his acknowledgement of his name as a "metaphor," his knowledge of the existence of the Bible, their want to simply exist, but at the moment, there is too much left unanswered for. I still see a machine, and it needs more then it gives.

[Lmaoboat]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Forgive me if I'm not a fan of analyzing massive post block-by-block just to enter an electronic war of attrition over a personal opinion that BioWare allows me to have.

You can't really claim that it's an opinion that Bioware allows you to have when it's based on ignoring the information they gave you. Unless you're just roleplaying as someone who doesn't know the whoel story, in which case you should be arguing in some RP forum or something.

I exhausted Legion's dialogue, and I still believe that I wouldn't mind blowing up the Geth. I ignored nothing. I need more than a few words from one Geth to convince me otherwise. Perhaps seeing an actual Geth community, a possiblility of them actually contributing to the Galaxy as a whole, would disuade me, but for what has been presented in ME2, I still believe they are simply "machines." All they do is exist, and nothing more.

Call it ignorance, I stand by my decision. No amount of dancing Geth is going to change that.  

What makes a machine any diffrent than an organic lifeform besides chemestry?

In a strictly physical sense, nothing. But I ask myself what makes life beautiful, and that is the ability to create to fufill the needs brought upon by flaws. This creates both artistic and scientific contribution. The Geth have created, though so far it seems they do so only for the advancement of the Geth. There is nothing wrong with this, as the history of all races is marked with developing only for the sake of themselves. The difference is that I can see no intention to say, share this technology for the betterment of the galaxy. Geth see problem, Geth correct problem, then they simply exist, until another problem arises.

Now, not to say I havent been touched by Legion. I noticed his acknowledgement of his name as a "metaphor," his knowledge of the existence of the Bible, their want to simply exist, but at the moment, there is too much left unanswered for. I still see a machine, and it needs more then it gives.

The fact that Legion patched himself with your armor even though there was no reason for him to do so shows that they are more than just machines. The only reason he would use Shepard's armor wen any reason would suffice would be that it has sentimental value. The Geth also show capacity for philosphy, in that they rejected the reapers  because they thought that they should carve their own destiny. In fact, the first Geth to become sentient alarmed it's creators by asking if it had a soul.

[this isnt my name]

Legions geth want the quarians back, they did not like the war with their masters, the quarians want their homeworld back, they dont want to fight the geth anymore. Both could with a bit of help get along, the geth want the quarians back (hence keeping the home world the same) but some quarians are too blind to see this. If war is what happens it can only result in extinction of one race, most likely quarian.

[JJ Long]

I'm seriously hoping that Shepard, with Tali, can visit the Quarian homeworld in ME 3 and negotiate peace along with the Geth's full help against the Reapers.

[Eumerin]

Nastrod wrote...

All the admirals were using Tali as a political tool so I do not understand why Qwib Qwib is singled out. 

Because he's the most openly hostile toward Tali.  The dialogue suggests that it was his decision to call Tali 'vas Normandy' as a way to humiliate her - a stunt that blew up in his face when it allowed Shepard to act as Tali's advocate.  He also initially comes across as the most strident of the three admirals who are sitting in judgement and seems to have made up his mind regarding her guilt before the trial even starts.  I believe he's also the one that attempts to prematurely declare Tali dead.

Additionally, you find out that the other male admiral is an old friend of Tali's father, and that Admiral Xen was in support of the work that Admiral Rael'Zorah was working on.  So the initial set-up is designed to make you sympathetic toward two of the admirals and hostile toward the third - Admiral Koris.

It's not until you start delving deeper that you start finding reasons to become sympathetic toward Koris and start feeling colder toward the others.

Really, none of the admirals come across as particularly admirable (no pun intended...).  Koris is the most openly hostile, but all of the admirals make it clear that they're merely using Tali as a proxy for their own fight.  The only possible exception is the admiral presiding (recusing herself because of her friendship with Tali).  But speaking about her with the other admirals indicates that she's largely staying out of the larger political argument because she's waiting in the wings to join whoever looks to come out on top.

So you have...

The fence sitter - openly noted by all three of the other admirals to be waiting for a winner to emerge in the current three-way struggle.
The invader - Wants to go to war with the Geth to retake the homeworld.  According to Kal'Reegar, the most likely outcome of this is that a few Geth die and all of the Quarians die.
The enslaver - Wants to hack the Geth Collective and reenslave the Geth.  Aside from the obvious difficulties discovered by Rael'Zorah in trying to hack the Geth (difficulties which got the entire crew of his ship killed), taking this option creates ethical issues as it's essentially a form of slavery (and in ME1, Tali indicated that it would be seen as such by the rest of the Galactic Community).
The colonizer - Wants to say, "Forget the homeworld," and resettle the population somewhere else.  Unlike the other two options, this particular one doesn't require the involuntary cooperation of the Geth.  But it will most likely require several centuries (Tali compares the length of time between readapting to the homeworld and adapting elsewhere as 60 vs. 600 years) before the Quarians fully adapt to their new home.

Of the four, the last one is the most risk-free.  Find a likely place, settle in, and your children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children will finally be able to live without any sort of artificial aid to protect them from illnesses.  But it's that whole time thing.  You're basically asking the next several centuries of Quarians to make sacrifices for a generation that they'll never meet.

It appears that the second option simply won't work.  The Quarians simply don't have the strength.  It doesn't matter what your personal thoughts on the Geth are.  This idea simply can't work.

The third option creates what is on the surface the most likely way to get back to the homeworld.  But the problem is that the technology doesn't exist, nor does anyone even know if the technology is possible.  And the last group that tried to find out got slaughtered by the Geth they were experimenting on.  And there's that whole "enslaving sentients" issue to deal with as well.  The Batarians may like this idea, but none of the other races will.


Of course, assuming that Legion is telling the truth the best option is really "none of the above".  One of the first things that Paragon Shepard probably ought to do after defeating the Collectors is to quietly contact one or more of the admirals (particularly Koris) and ask them if they'd like to send someone to interview a nominally friendly Geth.


RE - Tali's rant on the science vessel

Personally, I suspect that she'd love to see the Geth go away, but she's not as gung-ho about it as some of the other Quarians (including her father) are.  All Quarians are keenly aware of what a bad situation they're currently in, and finding a way to go back home represents the best possible solution.  The problem, of course, is that home just happens to be under the control of a group that everyone believes to be openly hostile.  Settling somewhere else - assuming of course that the Migrant Fleet can even find an ideal unsettled world - would take so long as to be a fairy tale even long after the process had begun.  So for Tali, getting the homeworld back is the only realistic option.  But it's also unrealistic in that there's no way that the Quarians could ever successfully pull it off without a miracle, and that ends up driving them to make reckless mistakes like the one that killed Rael'Zorah and his science team.  I suspect that the realization of all of the above provides the mix of frustration that fuels Tali's rant.  The Quarians desperately want a home.  But barring an act of God, they aren't going to have one anytime soon.  That frustrates them and drives some of them to act more recklessly than they ought.


RE - Geth and Indoctrination

Legion tells Shepard that the heretics did what they did because of a calculation error that crept into their software.  How do we know that wasn't the result of remote inoctrination over a distance (something similar to what appears to have happened to the ancient Rachni) by Sovereign?

[Inverness Moon]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

Forgive me if I'm not a fan of analyzing massive post block-by-block just to enter an electronic war of attrition over a personal opinion that BioWare allows me to have.

Sorry, but you claimed the geth did something that was completely invalidated by what Legion tells you himself in the game. There is no excuse.