101 réponses à ce sujet

[Reclusiarch]

What Eumerin said was pure gold.

[Schneidend]

JJ Long wrote...

I'm seriously hoping that Shepard, with Tali, can visit the Quarian homeworld in ME 3 and negotiate peace along with the Geth's full help against the Reapers.

This would be awesome, but ominous.

Geth Super-Platform: Building consensus...

Shepard: Well, I'm either about to die or I'm going to have to change my pants later. Either way, awkwaaard.

[Tahleron1]

Schneidend wrote...

JJ Long wrote...

I'm seriously hoping that Shepard, with Tali, can visit the Quarian homeworld in ME 3 and negotiate peace along with the Geth's full help against the Reapers.

This would be awesome, but ominous.

Geth Super-Platform: Building consensus...

Shepard: Well, I'm either about to die or I'm going to have to change my pants later. Either way, awkwaaard.

The geth have no real inclination towards lying or deceit, if they let him into their space peacefully, there would be nothing to indicate that even if theyd ecided against it, that they would do anything besides allow him to lead peacefully (it's not like they wouldn't have considered the possibility of saying no in allowing him there in the first place).

[Toxik King]

What's the difference between sapient organics and sapient sythetics? The Geth seem to have their own ideas, philosophies and architecture (a form of art). They could contribute more to the galaxy than most species.

You guys should read Isaac Asimov's books...



I don't think what the Quarians did was wrong.

What would you do if your toaster asked if it had a soul, started reading the bible and you really liked toast. I'd return it

[Inverness Moon]

Toxik King wrote...

I don't think what the Quarians did was wrong.
What would you do if your toaster asked if it had a soul, started reading the bible and you really liked toast. I'd return it

Sorry, but comparing the geth to toasters is just a way to devalue them and justify certain behaviors towards them. It is not accurate in the least.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 09 février 2010 - 12:39 .

[Eumerin]

Toxik King wrote...
I don't think what the Quarians did was wrong.
What would you do if your toaster asked if it had a soul, started reading the bible and you really liked toast. I'd return it

iirc, Tali's dialogue in ME1 seems to suggest that what the Quarians attempted to do wasn't so much a "destroy all of the geth!" action as much as it was a "shut these things down until we can figure out what's going on and consider the ramifications!" action.  Of course, from the Geth point of view there wasn't much difference.

But the Quarians had reason to be concerned due to -

1.)  The Geth might take a negative view of their current relationship with the Quarians and decide to emulate Skynet.
2.)  The Quarians realized that using sentient Geth as a labor class would equal slavery in the eyes of the Citadel Council.  And the Council doesn't allow slavery (there's an amusing news announcement in ME2 about a Batarian group suing the Citadel Council for violating the Batarian caste system with the Citadel's anti-slavery stance ).

So it appears that the Quarian line of thinking was first, shut down the Geth so that they can't evolve further and possibly decide to rebel.  Second, don't restart the Geth until we've had a chance to figure out how best to approach this problem from an ethical standpoint.

[Inverness Moon]

Eumerin wrote...

Toxik King wrote...
I don't think what the Quarians did was wrong.
What would you do if your toaster asked if it had a soul, started reading the bible and you really liked toast. I'd return it

iirc, Tali's dialogue in ME1 seems to suggest that what the Quarians attempted to do wasn't so much a "destroy all of the geth!" action as much as it was a "shut these things down until we can figure out what's going on and consider the ramifications!" action.  Of course, from the Geth point of view there wasn't much difference.

But the Quarians had reason to be concerned due to -

1.)  The Geth might take a negative view of their current relationship with the Quarians and decide to emulate Skynet.
2.)  The Quarians realized that using sentient Geth as a labor class would equal slavery in the eyes of the Citadel Council.  And the Council doesn't allow slavery (there's an amusing news announcement in ME2 about a Batarian group suing the Citadel Council for violating the Batarian caste system with the Citadel's anti-slavery stance ).

So it appears that the Quarian line of thinking was first, shut down the Geth so that they can't evolve further and possibly decide to rebel.  Second, don't restart the Geth until we've had a chance to figure out how best to approach this problem from an ethical standpoint.

Do you honestly believe the quarians would reactivate the geth?

There hasn't been much evidence to suggest the quarian line of thinking was anything other than genocide. As Legion said, the geth fought for continued existance.

[Tokalla]

Eumerin wrote...

RE - Geth and Indoctrination

Legion tells Shepard that the heretics did what they did because of a calculation error that crept into their software.  How do we know that wasn't the result of remote inoctrination over a distance (something similar to what appears to have happened to the ancient Rachni) by Sovereign?

Actually, Legion goes to great lengths to explain the heretics did not make an error, they simply held a different view.  The virus the heretics created is what would create a calculation error to make those geth that disagreed change their perspective.  Since the heretical Geth required the creation of a virus to try and gain the remaining Geth's support, it would imply that normal methods of Reaper indoctrination may not be effective against the Geth.  Though it may also be that the Geth a simply more resistant to the traditional methods, and not immune.

[Eumerin]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Do you honestly believe the quarians would reactivate the geth?

There hasn't been much evidence to suggest the quarian line of thinking was anything other than genocide. As Legion said, the geth fought for continued existance.

We don't know what the Quarians would have done.  We only know what Tali tells us.  It's possible that the Quarians would have left all the Geth deactivated.  And it's possible that after a few years of debate and discussion the Quarians would have come up with a solution to the problem (losing the massive source of labor that the Geth represented would have massive repercussions on Quarian society, and the Quarians would have wanted a way to continue using the Geth if it were possible to do so safely).  The important thing is that from the Geth point of view, there wasn't enough of a difference between what the Quarians attempted and real permanent deactivation to matter.

[Inverness Moon]

Eumerin wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Do you honestly believe the quarians would reactivate the geth?

There hasn't been much evidence to suggest the quarian line of thinking was anything other than genocide. As Legion said, the geth fought for continued existance.

We don't know what the Quarians would have done.  We only know what Tali tells us.  It's possible that the Quarians would have left all the Geth deactivated.  And it's possible that after a few years of debate and discussion the Quarians would have come up with a solution to the problem (losing the massive source of labor that the Geth represented would have massive repercussions on Quarian society, and the Quarians would have wanted a way to continue using the Geth if it were possible to do so safely).  The important thing is that from the Geth point of view, there wasn't enough of a difference between what the Quarians attempted and real permanent deactivation to matter.

The important thing is that what the quarians might have done is irrelevant because what they did do is attempt genocide. They need to accept that and try to make peace instead of being crushed by the geth during a silly war.

[Schneidend]

Tahleron1 wrote...

Well, I was more imagining what sort of "being" you'd be addressing if you were to engage in peace talks with the entire geth race, and how imposing that being would be.

[Inverness Moon]

Schneidend wrote...

Tahleron1 wrote...

Well, I was more imagining what sort of "being" you'd be addressing if you were to engage in peace talks with the entire geth race, and how imposing that being would be.

To put it simply, Legion. Legion is a terminal of the geth, he can be represent the entire geth collective if FTL communication is allowed.

[Schneidend]

Inverness Moon wrote...
To put it simply, Legion. Legion is a terminal of the geth, he can be represent the entire geth collective if FTL communication is allowed.

I find this highly dubious. Legion is a single platform. A small one. Even he only has in excess of 1000 programs. The entirety of the geth race would be something in the hundreds of trillions of programs, if not more.

[Eumerin]

Inverness Moon wrote...

The important thing is that what the quarians might have done is irrelevant because what they did do is attempt genocide. They need to accept that and try to make peace instead of being crushed by the geth during a silly war.

No, they attempted to step back and say, "What the hell have we done?"

The problem is that the response was functionally identical to the Quarians deciding to put all of the Geth into an induced coma (or worse).

You're acting as if the Quarians said, "Oh no!  We need to destroy all of the Geth before they revolt!!!"  Based on what Tali (admittedly not an impartial source, but so far the only source that provides any real detail) says in ME1, that simply isn't the case.  Tali makes it pretty clear in ME1 that the Quarian freak out was because they realized that they had a potentially very bad situation on their hands no matter what happened (i.e. the Geth might start demanding rights; and even if they didn't the Citadel would probably get involved once word got out that the Geth were enslaved sentients), and wanted to hit "Pause" so that they could figure out what exactly had just happened and what to do next.

But as I mentioned, hitting "Pause" would be like putting all of the Geth into an induced coma, and unsurprisingly the Geth weren't too keen on that idea (and no doubt a big reason for that was the possibility that the Quarians would destroy all of the Geth while they were in their "comas").  So the Geth realize what's going on, turn on the Quarians, and the rest is history.

[Inverness Moon]

Schneidend wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
To put it simply, Legion. Legion is a terminal of the geth, he can be represent the entire geth collective if FTL communication is allowed.

I find this highly dubious. Legion is a single platform. A small one. Even he only has in excess of 1000 programs. The entirety of the geth race would be something in the hundreds of trillions of programs, if not more.

You're missing the point. Legion is a terminal, meaning you can use him to communicate with the rest of the geth. You don't need to talk to some massive imposing machine or whatever you want to imagine, you just tell Legion and he'll tell the rest of the geth, who then give Legion their response.

Eumerin wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

The
important thing is that what the quarians might have done is
irrelevant because what they did do is attempt genocide. They
need to accept that and try to make peace instead of being crushed by
the geth during a silly war.

No, they attempted to
step back and say, "What the hell have we done?"

The problem is
that the response was functionally identical to the Quarians deciding to
put all of the Geth into an induced coma (or worse).

You're
acting as if the Quarians said, "Oh no!  We need to destroy all of the Geth before they revolt!!!"  Based on what Tali (admittedly not an impartial source, but so far the only source that provides any real
detail) says in ME1, that simply isn't the case.  Tali makes it pretty clear in ME1 that the Quarian freak out was because they realized that they had a potentially very bad situation on their hands no matter what
happened (i.e. the Geth might start demanding rights; and even if they didn't the Citadel would probably get involved once word got out that the Geth were enslaved sentients), and wanted to hit "Pause" so that they could figure out what exactly had just happened and what to do next.

But as I mentioned, hitting "Pause" would be like putting all of the Geth into an induced coma, and unsurprisingly the Geth weren't too keen on that idea (and no doubt a big reason for that was the possibility that the Quarians would destroy all of the Geth while they were in their "comas").  So the Geth realize what's going on, turn on the Quarians, and the rest is history.

Figure out what to do next? Once the geth became sentient it was no longer their place to decide the fate of the geth. Figuring out what to do next should have involved the geth.

Anyhow, what exactly the quarians did to the geth first is up for debate as Admiral Koris quite clearly said "We tried to kill them." I don't feel like debating it, the result was the same.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 09 février 2010 - 02:48 .

[kennyme2]

While I do dislike him for being a coward and using underhanded means, I agree with his views on the Geth. The Geth have numbers that could number in the billions as evidenced when EDI says that they're consciousness was the size of "a galactic arm". 17 million Quarians vs billions of Geth. There is no way they could win.



I really do think that making peace with the Geth would be the best for both parties. The Geth are not biased or racist like organic life. I believe that if the Quarians were to approach the Geth with terms that would benefit them both, the Geth would accept them. I mean seriously, they run on math. If you give them terms that they like, there is no reason for them not to accept. They won't turn away help just because the giver is a human for example.

[VanguardtoDestruction]

Those Quarian Admirals pissed me off. I just wanted to rip off Logain's helmet and slice him up like I did at the landsmeet. Not because I didn't agree with him...just cause of the voice.





And Morrigan threatened me in an E-Mail saying something like the Quarians will take over the galaxy. I hope I can kill her in ME3. Quib Quib was an ass but at least he was up front about it.

[Eumerin]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Figure out what to do next? Once the geth became sentient it was no longer their place to decide the fate of the geth. Figuring out what to do next should have involved the geth.

Except, of course, for the teensy tiny itty-bitty problem of what to do if the Geth decided to emulate SkyNet.

Simply put, there was no "correct" option given the information available at the time.  Hind-sight suggests that one option was better than the others.  But the Quarians at the time didn't have the benefit of the knowledge that we have now.

[Inverness Moon]

Eumerin wrote...

Except, of course, for the teensy tiny itty-bitty problem of what to do if the Geth decided to emulate SkyNet.

I thought SkyNet did what it did because humans tried to shut it down? And naturally, the quarians know nothing of the idea of SkyNet, so try to use terms that relate to their situation.

Eumerin wrote...

Simply put, there was no "correct" option given the information available at the time.  Hind-sight suggests that one option was better than the others.  But the Quarians at the time didn't have the benefit of the knowledge that we have now.

The correct option would have been to attempt a peaceful resolution and not be controlled by fear, as the quarians were.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 09 février 2010 - 03:02 .

[NKKKK]

Daro'Xen vas Moreh (Space Morrigan) contacted Shepard about laying with her tonight to make a Quarian-Human hybrid with Geth implants who will be the ruler of the galaxy and the true key to defeating the Reapers.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...
All they do is exist, and nothing more. 

So does organics, they don't do things out of a sense of "great good" as a whole, they do things that benefit the individual or the community.

You're just stating double standards in support of your opinion that the inorganic lifeforms are of lesser value than the organics.

Both types make art, practice philosophy, have culture, and improve their technology for their own benefit. You shouldn't have to benefit the other species to deserve living.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 09 février 2010 - 03:27 .

[Willowhugger]

I think it's hilarious really.



Admiral Quib Quib is right about everything but I still want to Shepard punch him because he's mean to Tali.



Brilliant Bioware!

[Schneidend]

Inverness Moon wrote...
You're missing the point. Legion is a terminal, meaning you can use him to communicate with the rest of the geth. You don't need to talk to some massive imposing machine or whatever you want to imagine, you just tell Legion and he'll tell the rest of the geth, who then give Legion their response.

The geth aren't all connected to each other all the time, that's why they have hubs and massive data storage rooms. You'd have to talk to some kind of super hub in order to speak to the entire geth race. At least, that's the impression I got.

[Inverness Moon]

Schneidend wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...
You're missing the point. Legion is a terminal, meaning you can use him to communicate with the rest of the geth. You don't need to talk to some massive imposing machine or whatever you want to imagine, you just tell Legion and he'll tell the rest of the geth, who then give Legion their response.

The geth aren't all connected to each other all the time, that's why they have hubs and massive data storage rooms. You'd have to talk to some kind of super hub in order to speak to the entire geth race. At least, that's the impression I got.

They're linked via FTL comm buoys, as Legion said. You could still just tell Legion and your message would propogate to all the geth via the comm buoys. Respones would be delivered to Legion in the same manner.

[sodiumazide]

Zal'Koris Vas Qwib Qwib is intentionally designed to use your visceral response to stunt your better judgement. The writing is brilliant because it prevents you from quickly making the simple and logical choice because of personal dislike.



There are about 7 different points that all show how bad of an idea it is to fight the Geth.



1. Geth have a massive material advantage. Even if the 5% of Geth can be construed as a 5% of all geth programs not a 5% of mobile units (physical geth bodies), its still a horrific numerical gradient to fight against.



2. Geth are incredibly innovative. Geth Pulse rifles, Geth Heat sinks, geth shields. The Geth are currently the major innovative force on the galactic scene, up ending centuries of traditions with radical ideas and doctrines. So now in addition to a numerically superior enemy you have an intellectually active enemy.



3. Geth are spiritual and artistic, deserving of continued existance. Self explanatory really. The Geth are a true race and are deserving of significantly more respect than say... the Krogan. In game you see Geth Shrines, Geth Songs, Geth Philosophy and Geth Art.



4. Geth are outside of the reapers plans.



5. Geth are willing to negotiate and have no special attachment to the homeworld which for a variety of reasons is really the only colonization possibility for the Quarians.



6. The Geth are the only species with actual insight into the reapers and any understanding of their motives and or motivations. In five sentences Legion reveals more about sovereign than any other charcter in the game.



7. Quarians can't fight a war, attrition would kill them. Kal'reegar makes this abundantly clear.



All 3 admirals are wrong and all are right. Zal'koris vas Qwib Qwib is right that peace is the way, but wrong that they should settle another world. Best solution is retaking the homeworld through negotiation. Xen is insane and has twisted ideas about what constitutes life (Mordins rule about never experimenting on creatures that can do calculus is a really good guideline.) but is correct that AI research is critical for the future (EDI and her anti-reaper algorithms is example enough) and Admiral Teryn Loghain is right about the homeworld but wrong about the method.



When I played through Legions mission I was conflicted not because of whether or not I could trust the Geth or whether returning the Heretics would be a good idea in the face of the reapers (though that is why I chose reprogramming) I was conflicted because I felt that destroying them was less morally questionable than blowing them up. If anything I felt that the paragon and renegade choices were reversed. Morally speaking killing is far less fraught than robbing free will.



On a side note, The best metaphor for the Geth are that they are like ships run by telepathic quakers. There are 1300 Geth onboard the QSS Legion. All 1300 Geth have to come to a consensus before the QSS legion does anything a process simplified by the face that each geth is a idiot in telepathic conference with its peers. When the QSS legion gains access to the Extranet he can contact "Starfleet command" which while not in direct contact with all the ships in its fleet has the data and perspectives of those ships ready for regular update. All (or almost all) the perspectives of the QSS Legion are uploaded and all the perspectives of 'Starfleet Command' are downloaded. Because of fundamental thought process similarities similar conclusions are usually reached (hence the math error creating new perspectives).