2583 réponses à ce sujet

[Atmosfear3]

How does the GPS compare to the Claymore for a standard Vanguard? Does the Claymore do more damage at point blank and does the GPS come close? I can't seem to find anything using the crappy search function on this forum.

Modifié par Atmosfear3, 01 mars 2011 - 05:55 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Claymore does more damage per shot, only a charged GPS shot will outclass it (though a little redundant coz the Claymore can one-shot enemies easily). I prefer the Claymore for Vanguards, but the GPS is awesome for casters. Unlike the other shotguns, it works really well at range. You can one-shot defenses fast and easy. Perfect to follow up with biotic or tech powers to disable and kill the target.

Range is not an issue for Vanguards, Charge will get you where you'll need to be almost instantly and Claymore's BOOM beats GPS' PEW any day IMHO.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

What do you guys think about a vanguard with GPS/GPR loadout? It could look cool / be effective, with a more Adept-ish style of gameplay rather than charge, charge, charge (As in how most Vanguards are played, not negative implications or anything xD)

[XCPTNL]

I don't see the point. There's nothing wrong with "charge, charge, charge" in my opinion. It gets the job done pretty quickly. What else would you want to use with a Vanguard? It's not like a Vanguard has many cool powers to choose from so playing it with less charging is ultimately like playing a character that sits behind cover and pops out to shoot - just with no advantages whatsoever.

I like the GPS on Adepts and Sentinels but I don't like it for a Vanguard. It doesn't feel like a shotgun, the Claymore is way cooler and does more damage per single shot (and if you only use charged shots with the GPS you'll usually get annoyed and run out of ammo fast). The GPS/GPR combo is somehow redundant because they are both good against the same kind of defense (shields/barriers) while lacking damage against armor. Also you can use the GPS for midrange, so there's no need for the GPR in my opinion. So I'd pick the Mattock or Viper instead. But then again I never play like this anyways because I always go for the Claymore and I'm fine with the SMGs and use the Phalanx for long distance sniping if I ever need it at all.

[Saaziel]

I'm planning on keeping my GPS all the way.

Even if my target isn't dead in one shot i can melee it after. After the first few seconds of an engagement enemies are soften up anyways and it -geth- the job done ...

I also like the trajectory & velocity of the plasma orbs, it seems easier to connect with moving enemies. More ammo is always a plus. The charging up function is also nice, adds some nuance to a fairly redundant gameplay.

Edit: Interesting side note. You can shoot a charged GPS a second after using the Vanguard charge. Not sure if the damage actually registers, so far it looks like it. The set up looks something like this:

-Charge the shotgun.
-Use the vanguard charge.
-A split second after , you release the trigger.
- You impact just before the orbs (Which doesn't seem to damage you).
-Finish off the target with melee or an other  "quick shotgun hit".
-begin to charge the shotgun again, and look for cover.

If you begin the charge before going to cover it seems to keep building. The damage output is very significant In my opinion.

Modifié par Saaziel, 08 mars 2011 - 12:08 .

[a_mouse]

Hey chaps. Been replaying old games lately, including ME2 Vanguard insanity. Been trying out the following build:

10: squad incendiary
10: improved cryo
10: heavy charge
3: Shockwave (to unlock pull)
1: pull
10: Champion
6: whatever bonus power (usually reave as an occasional barrier stripper, but doesn't matter since I hardly use it).

I call it the "thermal stress" build, since I alternate between ICE (charging small clusters of enemies in rear or on flank with Evi and improved cryo) and FIRE (short-to-mid-range cover combat using SMG, squad incendiary, pull, and warp bombs). This build inverts the traditional build which usually puts cryo on the squad and sheps SMG, and inferno on shep's shogun. Here the SMG and squad gets inferno, and sheep's shotgun gets the cryo.

ICE. I find that the improved cryo on the shotgun really helps lock down enemies at point-blank range while on charge cooldown. I can reliably charge clusters of up to 3 ordinary mooks, immobilizing each with a single headshot. If necessary, I then melee the resulting pile of ice statues while my squad sets them on fire (this NEVER gets old…). Or not, since often the frozen enemy is out of action so long it doesn't matter anyway. The longer freeze duration and slightly higher freeze probability of improved cryo really helps with this strategy. Usually I try to charge and clear a rear or flanking position, and then unleash...

FIRE. I find that at short-to-mid-range, the lockdown effect of incendiary panic is almost as good as cryo, but has the added benefit of tearing through armor faster, not dropping enemies behind cover, and not interfering with warp bombs off miranda and thane. I find I can clear large groups or hardened enemies very quickly this way, in a chain of warp bombs where each detonation strips off the barrier/armor of the next bomb target. If my ICE charge is done correctly, I am usually in such a freakishly superior position that the remaining enemies go poof in a fiery explosion of flying burning corpses (this also never gets old…).

Fantastic old thread, thanks for all the great advice!

[NekkidNones]

a_mouse wrote...

Hey chaps. Been replaying old games lately, including ME2 Vanguard insanity. Been trying out the following build:

10: squad incendiary
10: improved cryo
10: heavy charge
3: Shockwave (to unlock pull)
1: pull
10: Champion
6: whatever bonus power (usually reave as an occasional barrier stripper, but doesn't matter since I hardly use it).

Lvl1 pull!  Totally approve!  For the life of me I don't see any great benefit to upping that skill beyond the minimum.

If you rarely use reave, try lvl3 or lvl4 dominate instead and feel like a real biotic gawd!  Use one enemy to strip another enemies armour and to soak up bullets at the same time.  With a 12 second duration and 6 or 9 second recharge, it's a horrifically powerful skill.  Besides, enemies make better disposable human shields than your tank squad mates.  Save ya medigel, and keeps Grunts armour all shinny and scratch free 

I would reserve squad ammo upgrade path for your squad mates.  Shep can be selfish and take the higher damage solo path, since incendiary ammo is common.

Modifié par MoonSpot, 09 décembre 2013 - 02:43 .

[a_mouse]

MoonSpot wrote...

If you rarely use reave, try lvl3 or lvl4 dominate instead and feel like a real biotic gawd!  Use one enemy to strip another enemies armour and to soak up bullets at the same time.  With a 12 second duration and 6 or 9 second recharge, it's a horrifically powerful skill.  Besides, enemies make better disposable human shields than your tank squad mates.  Save ya medigel, and keeps Grunts armour all shinny and scratch free 

I would reserve squad ammo upgrade path for your squad mates.  Shep can be selfish and take the higher damage solo path, since incendiary ammo is common.

Sure, that's definitely an option. But with the fire/ice build I find it a bit too slow to use effectively.  By the time I strip and dominate the target, it's utility as a distraction is marginal compared to my own ability to distract enemies by charging to a flanking or rear position immediately.  I find it more synergistic with this build to BE the distraction. With only 6 to spend I actually prefer stasis, as sometimes it can create charge opportunities that would otherwise be too risky.  

The reason (in my case) for squad incendiary is that with VG I like to bring Miranda and Thane most of the time for flaming warp bombs.  But I agree if you are taking Grunt on every mission, it makes sense to go solo incendiary. 

[capn233]

Squad Cryo Ammo is probably better than Squad Incendiary for a couple of reasons. First off is that you give up Inferno by going Squad on IA, and Inferno does potentially CC protected organic mooks if the primary target is unprotected and you get the burst. Next is that Cryo CC's all enemies in the game, including Geth, and it will also kill husks when they freeze.

[Yezdigerd]

Shepard does so much of the total damage that you really want damagebonus ammo on him. Incindiary have a very noticeable effect on kill speed, which makes vanguarding much easier. The squaddies get the full cryo cc effect and their trivial base damage gain little from damage bonuses, which is why I think it's the only decent squad option.
I think Cryo is only handy if you have trouble with mixed packs of stunlockers like pyros.

Anyway whatever works for people and is fun.

[a_mouse]

capn233 wrote...

Squad Cryo Ammo is probably better than Squad Incendiary for a couple of reasons. First off is that you give up Inferno by going Squad on IA, and Inferno does potentially CC protected organic mooks if the primary target is unprotected and you get the burst. Next is that Cryo CC's all enemies in the game, including Geth, and it will also kill husks when they freeze.

That is the conventional wisdom on this point (and that is similar to the reasoning I applied for a long time).  But then tried a controlled test through several levels with the normal arrangement reversed (see fire/ice post above), and was amazed at how much well it works.

As I mentined above, the emphasis of the fire and ice build is that you focus on immobilizing your targets, not killing them.  At range, a fire-paniced mook is better than a frozen one since it remains both passive and upright, while at close range frozen is better.  So better to put incendiary on team, ice on you.  

Geth are so easy and so infrequent in game it really doen't matter how you spec for them.  Husks I usually take from range anyway (or charge in and avalanche them).

[Yezdigerd]

a_mouse wrote...

As I mentined above, the emphasis of the fire and ice build is that you focus on immobilizing your targets, not killing them. 

Well I don't see the point. Stripped targets I don't kill instantly I disable with powers.

At range, a fire-paniced mook is better than a frozen one since it remains both passive and upright, while at close range frozen is better.  So better to put incendiary on team, ice on you. 

It's not between  frozen and dancing, it's between, frozen and 30-40% more damage to armor and health and dancing. It helps getting rid of defences the hard part and kills the target faster when you want to. Inferno also triggers cc on adjacent non-stripped targets which is unique and quite handy.

Geth are so easy and so infrequent in game it really doen't matter how you spec for them.

I consider both Tali's mission in the upper half of the difficulty curve, especially for Vanguards who has no antishield powers. The Geth are very aggressive comes with pyros and are quite hard to flank in the multiwave spots.

[capn233]

a_mouse wrote...

That is the conventional wisdom on this point (and that is similar to the reasoning I applied for a long time).  But then tried a controlled test through several levels with the normal arrangement reversed (see fire/ice post above), and was amazed at how much well it works.

I am sure you can get through the game that way, and I am sure that it is probably fun. If you are just arguing that it is fun, then fine. But the conventional wisdom became that way because many of us played nearly every iteration of all the characters already.

I am in the middle of an ME2 Vanguard currently, so maybe I will respec my ammos to see if my recollection is correct.

Modifié par capn233, 12 décembre 2013 - 05:46 .

[a_mouse]

capn233 wrote...

I am sure you can get through the game that way, and I am sure that it is probably fun. If you are just arguing that it is fun, then fine. But the conventional wisdom became that way because many of us played nearly every iteration of all the characters already.

Well, its a game.  So I'm not sure what other context I could have meant besides having fun!  However, I take issue with your apparent dismissal of this build as a fun (but inferior) way of doing things.  With my particular play style, the speed (and smoothness) with which I can tear through some of the more difficult levels is definitely higher with cryo on the shotgun, and inferno on SMG/AR.  I find this setup more synergistic with charging small groups in flanking positions, and/or warp bombing enemies from medium range. It's just more... tight (at least it is for me...)

 

[a_mouse]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Well I don't see the point. Stripped targets I don't kill instantly I disable with powers...

...It's not between  frozen and dancing, it's between, frozen and 30-40% more damage to armor and health and dancing. It helps getting rid of defences the hard part and kills the target faster when you want to. Inferno also triggers cc on adjacent non-stripped targets which is unique and quite handy....

...I consider both Tali's mission in the upper half of the difficulty curve, especially for Vanguards who has no antishield powers. The Geth are very aggressive comes with pyros and are quite hard to flank in the multiwave spots.

Disabling with powers requires a cooldown.  This is fine at medium range (I usually pull), which is why I like the incendiary ammon on the SMG/AR.  But close in I prefer to immolize with cryo ammo on shotgun so I can charge again as soon as possible.  

I think we agree on the merits of incendiary ammo at medium range.  But with squad cryo frozen targets often fall behind cover or fail to warp explode, messing up my timing.  I'd rather have the higher damage from incendiary ammo (including from squad), pulling down defenses a bit quicker and setting-up warp explosion targets. I've done runs with level 6 and level 10 incendiary, and its nice to have the inferno, but not really a deal breaker in my opinion.  At medium range there is more room for imprecision than if you are in a crowd doing kung fu.

I don't personally find the Tali recruitment mission very difficult.  But it does require care to avoid the heavies. That's one level where I actually try to keep the weaker mooks alive as long as possible so I can retain battlefield mobility (by charging their positions). 

[Yezdigerd]

a_mouse wrote...
Disabling with powers requires a cooldown.  This is fine at medium range (I usually pull), which is why I like the incendiary ammon on the SMG/AR.  But close in I prefer to immolize with cryo ammo on shotgun so I can charge again as soon as possible.  I think we agree on the merits of incendiary ammo at medium range.  But with squad cryo frozen targets often fall behind cover or fail to warp explode, messing up my timing. 

Well I would say that's what your squadmates cds are for, those times I used cryo I never felt freezing added any control I didn't already have. On my earlier vanguard runs, I thought squadcryo was pretty helpful, but now when I have more experience, I clear the groups much faster so it rarely triggers and then the fights are over. I rarely use warpexplosions either since the mooks flies everywhere.

I'd rather have the higher damage from incendiary ammo (including from squad), pulling down defenses a bit quicker and setting-up warp explosion targets. I've done runs with level 6 and level 10 incendiary, and its nice to have the inferno, but not really a deal breaker in my opinion. 

Sure you don't need incendiary but it's more damage and quite handy since you generally always can control 1 stripped target with firedancing. As I said squadmates damage is so small I don't see incindiary's damagebonus  matter.
I rarely use inferno actually both because I like to play around with all powers and use the mattock now and then. Inferno ammo+ mattock is basically godmode for vanguard with firesusceptible enemies.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 13 décembre 2013 - 11:18 .

[capn233]

a_mouse wrote...

Well, its a game.  So I'm not sure what other context I could have meant besides having fun!  However, I take issue with your apparent dismissal of this build as a fun (but inferior) way of doing things.  With my particular play style, the speed (and smoothness) with which I can tear through some of the more difficult levels is definitely higher with cryo on the shotgun, and inferno on SMG/AR.  I find this setup more synergistic with charging small groups in flanking positions, and/or warp bombing enemies from medium range. It's just more... tight (at least it is for me...) 

I am not making a moral judgement on your build.  If you are talking about a judgement in efficiency, I was in fact pointing out how the conventional wisdom became conventional, and why I think you were overselling Squad Incendiary Ammo vs Squad Cryo, and also even Improved Cryo relative to Squad Cryo on Shepard's weapons.  I would agree that frozen enemies falling in some places is annoying, but I would say them taking double damage is a fair trade for that.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^I personally don't like Cryo because it takes too long to take effect imo. At least with Incendiary with Explosive Burst, even if your enemies aren't primed, they still take a big explosion to the face with each hit. Then you charge them for an even bigger hit to the face!

[a_mouse]

capn233 wrote...

I am not making a moral judgement on your build.  If you are talking about a judgement in efficiency, I was in fact pointing out how the conventional wisdom became conventional, and why I think you were overselling Squad Incendiary Ammo vs Squad Cryo, and also even Improved Cryo relative to Squad Cryo on Shepard's weapons.  I would agree that frozen enemies falling in some places is annoying, but I would say them taking double damage is a fair trade for that.

Well, I guess my point is that I don't really care about the damage to a downed enemy (the'll be dead soon enough anyway). I just don't want them slowing me down and/or shooting at me...
Maybe a vid would help?  Here's one showing the use of the build against Shadow Broker agents.  Enjoy.

Modifié par a_mouse, 16 décembre 2013 - 01:51 .

[NekkidNones]

Touché. Far better than I thought, and much better than I could do with a shotgun. I just finished a vanguard insanity run myself. Have to say, didn't seem like my Shepard could take that much damage when I was doing LotSB. However; I was lvl20 and short many upgrades then, so perhaps that was part of the difference.

What capture software did you use?

[a_mouse]

MoonSpot wrote...

Touché. Far better than I thought, and much better than I could do with a shotgun. I just finished a vanguard insanity run myself. Have to say, didn't seem like my Shepard could take that much damage when I was doing LotSB. However; I was lvl20 and short many upgrades then, so perhaps that was part of the difference.

What capture software did you use?

Shep was probably upgraded to at least level 3 or 4 on most things at that point.  But it also may be less damage than you think.  When you overload each barge full of mooks, most cannot fire at you for a few seconds.  With one in stasis, there is a good chance only one or two are going to be firing at you (and in a tight crowd I think they actually block each other's fire).  I am also charging so much the shields keep going back up, so the damage only sometimes digs into health.  As has been mentioned many times on this thread, part of playing a Vanguard is having a feel for how much damage you can take before having to take cover or charge again. 

capn233 and Yezdigerd have some fair points about the merits of inferno/squad cryo.  However, you can see in video several examples of enemies getting CC'd by squad incendiary.  There are also many examples of long delays before I can get back to dealing with a frozen enemy (and freeze probability is important with this style).  So on balance, I prioritize having the improved cryo over inferno or squad cryo!  But this is really a mater of personal preference and play style, so talking about which is "best" is probably prettty meaningless.

Vid capture was Mirillis Action, recorded as MP4 on Bootcamp partition, then transfered to mac side for editing in iMovie.  Pretty solid 30 fps at 720p with no detectable glitches that I could tell, so seems like a good app.

[capn233]

Nice work on LOTSB. Now for my thoughts / observations:

We aren't saying SIA doesn't CC organics. It obviously does. What it does not do is CC melee organics (husks, klixen, varren), it does not CC synthetics (Geth, Loki, Fenris mechs), and it does not CC any targets as long as Squad Cryo.

I would also point out two things regarding Inferno ammo. Many of the mooks you shoot and freeze with Improved Cryo have nearly no health left and would be killed outright with Inferno. Additionally the truck sequence is another place where Inferno is a huge advantage. Area overload the truck as it lands, then cast Heavy Singularity (the only power Liara should cast in this sequence), then charge the Engineer and shoot. With inferno it will splash all the mooks in Singularity and also damage / panic the engineer. Inferno Ammo is more forgiving with any charge dependent style because it is the only ammo that will CC protected organics.

Also with regards to the freeze chance on Improved vs Squad Cryo, I don't think it is enough to matter on most of the Vanguard weapons. Squad Cryo on your Eviscerator, Claymore or Carnifex is typically more than sufficient for rapid freezing.

In any event, I would challenge you to run Derelict Reaper back to back with Improved CA / Squad IA and then Inferno / Squad Cryo.  I did not comment in this thread to bash your build or anything of the sort.  I did comment because it seemed that you were implying that the "conventional wisdom" was akin to the "conventional wisdom" several centuries ago that disease was caused by imbalances in four humors, or something to that effect.  And that is not the case.

Modifié par capn233, 16 décembre 2013 - 03:21 .

[a_mouse]

capn233 wrote...

I did not comment in this thread to bash your build or anything of the sort.  I did comment because it seemed that you were implying that the "conventional wisdom" was akin to the "conventional wisdom" several centuries ago that disease was caused by imbalances in four humors, or something to that effect.  And that is not the case.

You are putting words in my mouth. By "conventional wisdom" I mean simply what most people have said (or reiterated) on this thread.  It's not like I haven't done playthroughs with squad cryo - that's how I have historically configured a Vanguard.  But I also got bored with it, so decided to try some variations.  And low and behold I liked this way better.  

We aren't saying SIA doesn't CC organics. It obviously does. What it does not do is CC melee organics (husks, klixen, varren), it does not CC synthetics (Geth, Loki, Fenris mechs), and it does not CC any targets as long as Squad Cryo. 

All true.  But I don't want to give up improved cryo for any of that.  Lots of other ways to deal with those situations. Or respec to squad cryo for certain missions (Reaper IFF for example).

I would also point out two things regarding Inferno ammo. Many of the mooks you shoot and freeze with Improved Cryo have nearly no health left and would be killed outright with Inferno. 

Many, meaning what percentage?  I'm pretty good, but not good enough to land a reliable shot every time.  With IA I usually need one well placed shot and a melee to kill enemies *reliably*.  With IC I just need to get through the protection, which can often be done with a broadside body shot. It also takes less time because I can skip the melee (it's possible to empty the three-round clip of the evi into three enemies in quick sequence, and freeze them all).  So basically I can move faster and be slopier with IC than with IA.  

In fact, let's turn your argument around. By your own admission, this vid shows that if I am intent on killing a single target, cryo is plenty of damage.  So what's the point of the ammo power?  It's for the time when things DONT go as well as planned.  If so, I'd rather have the 7 sec immobilization and move on that have to waste time with melees and/or multiple shots on a target.  

Additionally the truck sequence is another place where Inferno is a huge advantage. Area overload the truck as it lands, then cast Heavy Singularity (the only power Liara should cast in this sequence), then charge the Engineer and shoot. With inferno it will splash all the mooks in Singularity and also damage / panic the engineer. Inferno Ammo is more forgiving with any charge dependent style because it is the only ammo that will CC protected organics.

Well, I would disagree that there is only one thing Liara "should" be doing.  But in this case I was intentionally avoided group disabling powers (pull field, singularity, shockwave) to demo the one-man crowd-managing capability of improved cryo.  Can you (for example) keep a truck-ambush contained using IA *without* using a group disable like singularity?  I would personally find that very difficult.  Perhaps you are just better at this game than me.

Also with regards to the freeze chance on Improved vs Squad Cryo, I don't think it is enough to matter on most of the Vanguard weapons. Squad Cryo on your Eviscerator, Claymore or Carnifex is typically more than sufficient for rapid freezing.

Usually, yes.  But again, I have such poor aim I sometimes wing an enemy with the shotgun.  It's those situations where the increased freeze chance matters.  I also like the long freeze duration - I can juggle more enemies at the same time.

In any event, I would challenge you to run Derelict Reaper back to back with Improved CA / Squad IA and then Inferno / Squad Cryo.  

You mean Reaper IFF?  As I said, that's one mission where I would agree with you.  But not enough to respec.  I don't charge husks, and take scions from range anyway. So I just make do with level 6 incendiary on Mattock/Viper/Carnifex + pull/warp.  Again, the added damage of level 10 vs. level 6 IA just effects how many times I have to shoot, or how far I have to retreat from the husk taking off their armor.  I find it kind of a boring level...

[RedCaesar97]

@a_mouse:

An interesting take on the Vanguard. Seems like a slightly modified version of the Cryo Vanguard. Although if you are taking Squad Incendiary, I would be tempted to switch Cryo Ammo to the squad version as well so you can switch between them depending on the enemies you face. Improved Cryo Ammo does not freeze enemies all that much longer than Squad/Rank 3 Cryo Ammo.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 17 décembre 2013 - 02:43 .

[a_mouse]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

@a_mouse:

An interesting take on the Vanguard. Seems like a slightly modified version of the Cryo Vanguard. Although if you are taking Squad Incendiary, I would be tempted to switch Cryo Ammo to the squad version as well so you can switch between them depending on the enemies you face. Improved Cryo Ammo does not freeze enemies all that much longer than Squad/Rank 3 Cryo Ammo.

Perhaps, yes.  However, what I am going for is a very tactical style (vs. just brawling with cryo on the shotgun).  For example, compare these two vids of the same level (the first from the thread you cited):

Cryo Vanguard Baria Offices
Cryo Vanguard Azure Landing
Thermal Stress - Baria + Azure

If you are just hammering dudes to death, then I agree that long freeze duration and increased freeze probability is pretty useless.  But if you are trying to stay more or less untouched and in control the whole time, then it matters more how easily and how long you freeze enemies.  That's my experience anyway.

Modifié par a_mouse, 17 décembre 2013 - 05:13 .