2583 réponses à ce sujet

[RamsenC]

rumination888 wrote...

Dannok1234 wrote...

Oh I ment in comparison to the Claymore, should have been more specific about that.

If you're comparing it to the Claymore then its a moot point. Your melee with the Claymore occurs when it fires.

I'm wondering what the melee speed is, because 2 melee hits inbetween each Eviscerate slows down the shotgun a lot. Theres no wasted time inbetween each melee hit with the Scimitar.

If you can slip one melee in between the Scimitar 0.6s refire time, why can't you slip two in the Evi's 1.25s refire time.

Modifié par RamsenC, 12 février 2010 - 10:05 .

[matt654321]

Could we get a few more details on the claymore refire trick? How exactly does it work, and what exactly do you need to do to pull it off?

[_Dannok1234]

rumination888 wrote...

Dannok1234 wrote...

Oh I ment in comparison to the Claymore, should have been more specific about that.

If you're comparing it to the Claymore then its a moot point. Your melee with the Claymore occurs when it fires.

I'm wondering what the melee speed is, because 2 melee hits inbetween each Eviscerate slows down the shotgun a lot. Theres no wasted time inbetween each melee hit with the Scimitar.

I was saying the Scimitar is possibly better dps then the Claymore if you can't do the trick. (Which was the point, and thus not being moot ;p)The shot+melee thing does a whole lot of damage very fast, and if the person using the Claymore isn't able to do the reload trick, it will fall behind. Man I worded that badly the first time around.
As in :
Scimitar: shot+melee
162 in 0s
287 0.x
449 in 0.6
s574 0.x
736 in 1.2
861 1.x
1023 in 1.8s
1148 in 2.x?
1310 in 2.4 seconds
(don't really know how long the melee takes or how fast you can do it after a shot)

Claymore
400 in 0s
800 in 2s
1200 in 4s

Not sure where the melee would be included in the Claymore lineup if you aren't successful with the speed reload, I'm guessing either as a delay before you reload or after it thus delaying the second shot.
Though I suppose perfect Claymore for 2 seconds would be like this then. (assuming it's a shot every 0.9 as you said)
Claymore :
525in 0 (melee included)
1050 in 0.9 (melee included)
1575 in 1,8 (melee included)
Which would give it a very solid lead on pretty much everything.

Evi Wtih melee
294 0
419 0.x
544 0,x
838 1,25
963 in 1,25+0,x
1088 in 1.25+0.x+0,x
1382 in 2.5

The gap in damage between Scimitar and Eviscerator isn't that big, not sure if you can really tell it ingame unless you look very carefully for it, since the time frame is so damn close.(At least not against mobs that need more then one shot from the Evi.)

Modifié par Dannok1234, 12 février 2010 - 10:22 .

[rumination888]

RamsenC wrote...

If you can slip one melee in between the Scimitar 0.6s refire time, why can't you slip two in the Evi's 1.25s refire time.

You're actually clipping a part of the melee animation when you use the Scimitar.
I think the Eviscerator only clips if its during the 3rd melee transition.

Now that I think about it, I believe all animations can be clipped into another animation at 60%.
The reload trick with the Claymore works if you transition into a power as well.

matt654321 wrote...

Could we get a few more details on
the claymore refire trick? How exactly does it work, and what exactly
do you need to do to pull it off?

Hold the fire button. When 60%(or more) of the reload animation is over, hit your melee button or power hotkey.

@Dannok: Oh, I agree. Even without meleeing, the Scimitar does more than the Claymore, and factoring in burst, too. The delay on the Claymore is 2.43s if how I interpret the ini is correct. I couldn't get more than 2 shots off(and the first was instant) in the time it took Shockwave to recharge(3.9s) when I tested it. So thats how I came to that conclusion.

[RamsenC]

You can do the first melee almost immediately after shooting and theres plenty of time for a second. I don't have a stop watch, but I don't notice a longer delay if I do it right.

[thisisme8]

rumination888 wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

If you can slip one melee in between the Scimitar 0.6s refire time, why can't you slip two in the Evi's 1.25s refire time.

You're actually clipping a part of the melee animation when you use the Scimitar.
I think the Eviscerator only clips if its during the 3rd melee transition.

Now that I think about it, I believe all animations can be clipped into another animation at 60%.
The reload trick with the Claymore works if you transition into a power as well.

I agree with this.  From melee to fire can be clipped, but 2 melees in a row can't.

[sinosleep]

Garrus' loyalty mission in its entirety

www.youtube.com/watch

I forgot to show the difficulty but there's one very easy way to verify it's on insanity. I hit a mech dead in the face with the cain and he still had armor and health left. On any other difficulty that mech is TOAST in one shot.

Modifié par sinosleep, 13 février 2010 - 12:29 .

[matt654321]

thisisme8 wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

If you can slip one melee in between the Scimitar 0.6s refire time, why can't you slip two in the Evi's 1.25s refire time.

You're actually clipping a part of the melee animation when you use the Scimitar.
I think the Eviscerator only clips if its during the 3rd melee transition.

Now that I think about it, I believe all animations can be clipped into another animation at 60%.
The reload trick with the Claymore works if you transition into a power as well.

I agree with this.  From melee to fire can be clipped, but 2 melees in a row can't.

I've been saying constantly that you can cancel a reload into a charge.

[mozez101]

So I am planning to take the sniper weapon training on the collector ship. Which on do you guys recommend? Mantis or Viper?

[Kurupt87]

sniper is a bad choice, you have neither the survivability or time dilation to line up or make frequent headshots. plus, its completely counter to the CQC outlook/point of the vanguard class.
edit: if you are adamant in getting sniper skill, i would think the viper, less reliance on pin point accuracy due to its semi auto nature. but again, i'd advise against sniper. AR much more viable if you're looking for ranged power.

Modifié par Kurupt87, 13 février 2010 - 01:15 .

[RamsenC]

I picked the Vindicator, but theres nothing wrong with the Viper. You won't be using either weapon much anyways.

[mozez101]

Kurupt87 wrote...

sniper is a bad choice, you have neither the survivability or time dilation to line up or make frequent headshots. plus, its completely counter to the CQC outlook/point of the vanguard class.
edit: if you are adamant in getting sniper skill, i would think the viper, less reliance on pin point accuracy due to its semi auto nature. but again, i'd advise against sniper. AR much more viable if you're looking for ranged power.

You do make good points, but the reason I am considering a sniper rifle instead of an AR is because there are enemies in this game you can't charge such as YMIR mechs, enemies in unchargable places, and etc. With those type of enemies I would rather deal with them far away.

[sinosleep]

I used the sniper rifle in my latest video and wasn't even aiming particularly well and it worked fine for me.

[thisisme8]

Sinosleep should know more about Vanguard with a Sniper Rifle as I think I read that he did the same thing.
Edit: beat me to it.  Consider me ninja'd.


Sooooooo.... I just finished an Insanity game using only the skills that the Vanguard comes with (Respec'ed out of the Bonus Skill).
Inferno Rounds
Squad Cryo
Heavy Charge
Improved Shockwave (wide)
Pull (1 point)
Champion

I used the Evi aside from Jack's recruitment mission until I got the Scim and used that exclusively to the end. Inferno Rounds came through for damage just fine along with Squad Cryo which I still think is beastly. Vs. Geth I kept my own ammo on Cryo and that worked out pretty well vs. Hunters and Primes since Inferno wouldn't really do much.
Of note, Shockwave and Pull mainly used on the IFF mission since Pull's recharge is 3s and insta-kills the husks. When I saw several without armor I tossed a Shockwave (just sucks because the recharge is longer than I'd like). I took the flamethrower with me on that mission and while I wouldn't say it was the best option, it definitely was fun... not so much for my Squaddies since they kept yelling at me for friendly fire.
Brought Grunt and Jacob for that mish (testing Jacob's survivability with full Barrier) and while Grunt held the line pretty well (harr!), Jacob died quite a lot. Zaeed might have been a better choice with his area Inferno Grenade.

Evi worked out real well and it's an easy transition from the Claymore, but the Scim really shines for me. I'm rapidly becoming a believer.

Thane with the Mantis and Heavy Warp and Samara with the Vindicator and Heavy Reave were my Squad on the Suicide mission and that was awesome. Thane can hit a Collector, strip it's barrier, and freeze it with one shot. Plus they do exceptionally well with staying alive and keeping the Collector General busy. I should have brought them with me for the Collector Ship mission since I practically strolled through the last one. Plus Charge is a great way to get right to the control valves at the beginning to help the specialist.

Anyway, no deaths and tons of Carnage. Good game.

Modifié par thisisme8, 13 février 2010 - 01:46 .

[thisisme8]

sinosleep wrote...

Garrus' loyalty mission in its entirety

www.youtube.com/watch

I forgot to show the difficulty but there's one very easy way to verify it's on insanity. I hit a mech dead in the face with the cain and he still had armor and health left. On any other difficulty that mech is TOAST in one shot.

Sweet Vid.  I think by now since I've done a complete "All Natural" Vanguard (no Bonus Skills, stuck to the Shotgun) play through on Insanity, I may try one using the Sniper Rifle.  Although I know the AR's have better damage and versatility than the pistols and SMG's, I can't see myself getting one since I do just fine with the Tempest/Hand Cannon combo for med range.  We'll see.  I think I may run through as an Adept first, then come back for a another Charge-fest with an actual bonus power and different weapon training.

[aeetos21]

I've been playing with my VG on insanity and it's been tough going, still made it past Horizon and a few other missions. But when I did Thane's recruitment mission? Man did I get POed.



Anyway, I still have a bunch of the playthrough left and I'm looking for other options. I'm a big believer in the scimitar but I've also been using the viper for long range enemies (like the YMIR). I used armor piercing rounds for my soldier on insanity but for my VG I'm using reave currently and it's a bit of a mixed bag really.



Half the time I feel like I am playing VG and the other half feels like a general shooter - not as much fun. On the Thane mission I died so many times - oy - just not fun.



Anyway, was looking at some of the builds posted here and figure I might try adjusting it a bit. Big question is just how often does squad cryo freeze enemies on insanity. I know the value of heavy charge and aoe shockwave but if I'm going to switch over from inferno rounds I need to know that cryo rounds do freeze targets on a fairly regular basis.



Also, Champion versus Destroyer? Just how much of a notice is there between CD times? It'd suck to lose the 100% negotiation bonus but if it means using charge more often then I'd go for it.



Typical armor I use is to just boost health and boost headshot/weapon damage. Does melee really help as much as people claim when you get heavy bone weave and the melee shoulders?

[Trefecka]

thisisme8 wrote...

Sinosleep should know more about Vanguard with a Sniper Rifle as I think I read that he did the same thing.
Edit: beat me to it.  Consider me ninja'd.


Sooooooo.... I just finished an Insanity game using only the skills that the Vanguard comes with (Respec'ed out of the Bonus Skill).
Inferno Rounds
Squad Cryo
Heavy Charge
Improved Shockwave (wide)
Pull (1 point)
Champion

I used the Evi aside from Jack's recruitment mission until I got the Scim and used that exclusively to the end. Inferno Rounds came through for damage just fine along with Squad Cryo which I still think is beastly. Vs. Geth I kept my own ammo on Cryo and that worked out pretty well vs. Hunters and Primes since Inferno wouldn't really do much.
Of note, Shockwave and Pull mainly used on the IFF mission since Pull's recharge is 3s and insta-kills the husks. When I saw several without armor I tossed a Shockwave (just sucks because the recharge is longer than I'd like). I took the flamethrower with me on that mission and while I wouldn't say it was the best option, it definitely was fun... not so much for my Squaddies since they kept yelling at me for friendly fire.
Brought Grunt and Jacob for that mish (testing Jacob's survivability with full Barrier) and while Grunt held the line pretty well (harr!), Jacob died quite a lot. Zaeed might have been a better choice with his area Inferno Grenade.

Evi worked out real well and it's an easy transition from the Claymore, but the Scim really shines for me. I'm rapidly becoming a believer.

Thane with the Mantis and Heavy Warp and Samara with the Vindicator and Heavy Reave were my Squad on the Suicide mission and that was awesome. Thane can hit a Collector, strip it's barrier, and freeze it with one shot. Plus they do exceptionally well with staying alive and keeping the Collector General busy. I should have brought them with me for the Collector Ship mission since I practically strolled through the last one. Plus Charge is a great way to get right to the control valves at the beginning to help the specialist.

Anyway, no deaths and tons of Carnage. Good game.

I'm curious, how did you get Thane to stick to squad cryo?  I used to take him along with me, but ever since I got him loyal he has a tendency to switch to Shredder ammo :s.  I honestly think Thane is a better squadmate when he's unloyal than loyal lol.

[thisisme8]

aeetos21 wrote...

I've been playing with my VG on insanity and it's been tough going, still made it past Horizon and a few other missions. But when I did Thane's recruitment mission? Man did I get POed.

Anyway, I still have a bunch of the playthrough left and I'm looking for other options. I'm a big believer in the scimitar but I've also been using the viper for long range enemies (like the YMIR). I used armor piercing rounds for my soldier on insanity but for my VG I'm using reave currently and it's a bit of a mixed bag really.

Half the time I feel like I am playing VG and the other half feels like a general shooter - not as much fun. On the Thane mission I died so many times - oy - just not fun.

Anyway, was looking at some of the builds posted here and figure I might try adjusting it a bit. Big question is just how often does squad cryo freeze enemies on insanity. I know the value of heavy charge and aoe shockwave but if I'm going to switch over from inferno rounds I need to know that cryo rounds do freeze targets on a fairly regular basis.

Also, Champion versus Destroyer? Just how much of a notice is there between CD times? It'd suck to lose the 100% negotiation bonus but if it means using charge more often then I'd go for it.

Typical armor I use is to just boost health and boost headshot/weapon damage. Does melee really help as much as people claim when you get heavy bone weave and the melee shoulders?

First off, the good news.  Champion gives better cooldown and more Paragon/Renegade points.  Destroyer is for those that want more damage.  My opinion is that if I get my Charge back half a millisecond faster, it will probably save my life a hundred times over, so Champion for me.
If you are going to go for Squad Cryo, get Inferno Rounds as well.  Turn on Squad Cryo and then change to your Inferno Rounds.  You're squad will keep it's Cryo Ammo.  You really have to play it to understand it, but it really does work great.  Many times I'll start a fight by Charging the guy on the left and when I kill him, the guy on the right will be frozen.  Just happens.  Works even better if you can keep your squad attacking the groups while you Charge around the edges, so to speak.
This last playthrough that I did I stuck to all shield armor except for the melee shoulder pads.  I think you get something like +18% shields and +25% melee damage.  Is melee damage worth it?  Absolutely.  Ask any of the regulars here and they'll tell you the same thing.  Alternating between shots and melee is the surest way to stunlock most enemies.  I think the Collector General, YMIR Mechs, and Praetorians are the only ones that don't "flinch."  Oh, and maybe Scions too, someone correct me if I'm wrong.  Anyway, melee is essential to not only rapid DPS, but also saving ammo (if you're as bad a shot as I can be sometimes).  Then again, you probably got the 3/5 Shotgun research upgrade by now, right?  That unlocks the ammo upgrade for shotties which essentially doubles their Thermal Clip capacity.

Look up a couple of posts to see my last build.  All "vanilla" powers and did very well.  Just save the game and play around with your build a little using the research terminal.

Also, which part is giving you the trouble on Thane's mission?

Edited for spelling and punctuation

Modifié par thisisme8, 13 février 2010 - 02:41 .

[thisisme8]

Trefecka wrote...

I'm curious, how did you get Thane to stick to squad cryo?  I used to take him along with me, but ever since I got him loyal he has a tendency to switch to Shredder ammo :s.  I honestly think Thane is a better squadmate when he's unloyal than loyal lol.

I had trouble with Grunt doing this too, but I found the solution...  ultra micro-management.  He tends to switch as soon as each new group spawns, and on the last mission you usually have a couple moments before you can actually attack (platforms and bubble especially), so I just switched it there.  But yeah, it's a pain in the ass.  I wish the options allowed for the following 3:
Actively use powers
Defense and Ammo powers only
Fuggedaboudit.

Edit:  That, or let us repec our Squadmate's powers when we respec our own.

Modifié par thisisme8, 13 février 2010 - 02:37 .

[aeetos21]

Well I beat Thane's mission, it just took... hours.



The bridge wasn't so bad, though it was interesting to see the asari commando at the end go at me with her own claymore shotgun.



What did give me problems was the floor before the bridge where enemies are just all over the place and it's hard to find effective places to charge to. I watched a lot of the videos and almost each time I watch I'm thinking: "See if I did that, my shields would go and then I'd go. What are they doing different?"



AoE reave is good for stunning enemies at a distance but again, VG's aren't meant to fight at range. It's a good tactic to use sniper or ar to lessen the herd first before you charge but on insanity as soon as you "lessen the herd" more enemies spawn and you're right back to where you started - only usually without 1 squadmate backing you up.



Stunlocking, very effective - reminds me of when I played wow.

[ChaoticBroth]

I have a feeling that the mission that's post-Collector Ship is going to be damn troublesome for several people. Haestrom was incredibly frustrating for my Vanguard, and Thane's mission neared that level of frustration. Maybe it has something to do with scaling. I don't know too much about playing a VG on Insanity, but on HC, Squad Cryo works enough to make your teammates an asset. For armor, I chose all shields, the ammo pack (you can NEVER have enough shotty ammo), and the melee shoulders. Let me tell you that meleeing is incredibly useful, and it doesn't hurt to melee the occasional YMIR or Harbinger or some other crazy enemy (Warning: This scenario contains a high risk of death through suicidal means, possibly against Geth Colossi. Player discretion is advised.) And I'm pretty sure Scions do flinch. I don't recall them ever hitting me when I unload the Scimitar on them.



As for your bonus, you'll find what you'll like through one thing. Messing around. Reave works nicely every now and then, but I don't use it too much (Only Charge/Unity or Ammo powers are used.) I use it to keep enemies with Health distracted, or just a quick resistance removal if necessary. A quick resistance removal power in sticky situations.

[aeetos21]

I used melee often in ME1 (double combat exoskeletons anyone?) but in ME2 the armor and shields really discouraged me. It was mostly:



Charge -> Shoot (maybe get killed) -> Find cover -> Heal -> Look around (maybe get killed) -> Charge and rinse, repeat.

[ChaoticBroth]

Hmm. I don't know what the difficulty increase from HC to Insanity is, but I use this tactic on harder missions. With easier ones, I just charge, shoot, melee, rinse and repeat. I use Incendiary Ammo, mostly for causing enemies panic.



Scout around for dangerous foes -> Assign squadmates to deal with out-of-reach enemies/strip lackey defenses -> Heavy charge foe -> Shoot lackeys once -> Shoot foe 3/4/5 times -> melee him to death -> grab cover -> repeat.

[thisisme8]

ChaoticBroth wrote...

I have a feeling that the mission
that's post-Collector Ship is going to be damn troublesome for several
people. Haestrom was incredibly frustrating for my Vanguard, and
Thane's mission neared that level of frustration. Maybe it has
something to do with scaling. I don't know too much about playing a VG
on Insanity, but on HC, Squad Cryo works enough to make your teammates
an asset. For armor, I chose all shields, the ammo pack (you can NEVER
have enough shotty ammo), and the melee shoulders. Let me tell you that
meleeing is incredibly useful, and it doesn't hurt to melee the
occasional YMIR or Harbinger or some other crazy enemy (Warning: This
scenario contains a high risk of death through suicidal means, possibly
against Geth Colossi. Player discretion is advised.) And I'm pretty
sure Scions do flinch. I don't recall them ever hitting me when I
unload the Scimitar on them.

As for your bonus, you'll find what
you'll like through one thing. Messing around. Reave works nicely every
now and then, but I don't use it too much (Only Charge/Unity or Ammo
powers are used.) I use it to keep enemies with Health distracted, or
just a quick resistance removal if necessary. A quick resistance
removal power in sticky situations.

I actually had to double-check that I was still on Insanity after the Collector ship...

Yeah, melee is great for stunlocking and once you get used to doing it automatically, it becomes a regular part of your DPS between shots.

aeetos21 wrote...

I used melee often in ME1 (double combat exoskeletons anyone?) but in ME2 the armor and shields really discouraged me. It was mostly:

Charge -> Shoot (maybe get killed) -> Find cover -> Heal -> Look around (maybe get killed) -> Charge and rinse, repeat.

Remember, you can Charge to replenish your shields.  Also, I didn't mentions this before, but I usually get Squad Cryo fourth.  Charge, Champion, Inferno, Squad Cryo.  This last game it was followed up by 2 lvl's of Shockwave, 1 lvl of Pull, finished off Shockwave.  Squad Cryo is great, but for sure get your heavy hitting ammo power first.

Modifié par thisisme8, 13 février 2010 - 02:55 .

[Peer of the Empire]

Vanguard insanity is extremely easy. Just don't screw around or you'll die. I love Thane's recruitment mission personally. Grunt's and Jack's missions were easy.  I particularly like the end of Grunt's:  go after Jedore immediately, charging in w/ shotgun blast to the face, charge her again and own her, charge across the field to own the krogan, and then finish off the heavy mech with your squadmates.  Vanguards can mix it up close with krogan.  It's awesome

You have to play aggressively if you don't want to be stuck at midrange. Low fps will kill the vanguard, not only in the usual ways but also interfere with charge targeting. I could not charge 75% of the time until I fixed this issue. Update directx and drivers and drop resolution to check it out

I love Barrier. I charge all the time. Reave is nice but I don't really use it; you can one shot most enemies with the claymore and own other vanguards, and YMIR, scions, and friends have failsafe strategies against them that mostly require only patience

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 13 février 2010 - 03:50 .