2583 réponses à ce sujet

[_Dannok1234]

That seems about right to me Kronner. You actually prove that the difference in damage over a 2.5 second time frame is pretty insignificant. Which was what I was saying, now you can add the benefits of having a second weapon or one-shot-kill vs safety against groups, and argue the pro's and con's of both. But it's mainly down to personal taste/playstyle rather then anything else.



I wasn't out to prove that the Scimitar is superior, just that the choice of shotgun is down to personal taste and play style more then anything else (as Thisisme8 posted, and I have many many times before). To me the Evi, Scim and Claymore are all equal.(none of them are more equal then others, as some farm animals might claim )



Ps using melee range damage or unmodified damage doesn't really change the ratio between the guns, thats why I didn't bother with it.

[Kronner]

Dannok1234 wrote...

That seems about right to me Kronner. You actually prove that the difference in damage over a 2.5 second time frame is pretty insignificant. Which was what I was saying, now you can add the benefits of having a second weapon or one-shot-kill vs safety against groups, and argue the pro's and con's of both. But it's mainly down to personal taste/playstyle rather then anything else.

I wasn't out to prove that the Scimitar is superior, just that the choice of shotgun is down to personal taste and play style more then anything else (as Thisisme8 posted, and I have many many times before). To me the Evi, Scim and Claymore are all equal.(none of them are more equal then others, as some farm animals might claim )

Ps using melee range damage or unmodified damage doesn't really change the ratio between the guns, thats why I didn't bother with it.

Well, you gotta admit that weapon with more base damage benefits more, ratio is useless, the difference is not.
What I was trying to show is that the numbers fit for Claymore in the game, while Scimitar just cannot do so well. You are not gonna fire 6 shots and do 3 melee attacks in 2.5 seconds, that widens the gap even more.

Modifié par Kronner, 18 février 2010 - 06:16 .

[Mordigan]

One thing about the Scimitar that I've always disliked is it's poor performance against armor..



It can take down shields faster than anything, but when it comes to armor, it noticeably lags behind the Claymore and Evi.

[sinosleep]

Kronner wrote...


Well, you gotta admit that weapon with more base damage benefits more, ratio is useless, the difference is not.
What I was trying to show is that the numbers fit for Claymore in the game, while Scimitar just cannot do so well. You are not gonna fire 6 shots and do 3 melee attacks in 2.5 seconds, that widens the gap even more.

Kronner, this is why I bring up over kill. I'm level 30 doing the end game mission right now. I take down harbinger from full armor in 5 shots. You never need to shoot anything that many times in game any way so the argument is kinda moot. Unless you are talking about scions and higher, which don't require high kill speed cause they don't have very good AI any way. Yes, it does more damage, I stand by the opinion that most of it goes unused though. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 février 2010 - 06:27 .

[_Dannok1234]

Your right, I wasn't thinking clearly about the ratio thing as at base values the Scimitar actually out damages the Claymore(note it will do that easily if you do not do the reload trick, hence why I add that it's essential to use it properly).

I think we have to just agree to disagree regarding ingame performance, I'll maintain it's down to playstyle/taste while you are adamant that the Claymore is always the best. I'm not going to change your mind, so you too believe the difference between the guns is insignificant, and you most likely won't change my mind about there being a very significant difference.
We apparently have completely opposite experiences with the guns ingame.

Edit:
Couldn't help myself but to add this to illustrate what we are arguing over.
Example : (which does actually happen a fair few times, at least to me)
3 Normal enemies on insanity (normal play through not ng+ at 30)
(starting timeline from first shot fired)
0 Claymore kills first enemy. 
0 Scimitar shoots at first enemy
0.6 Scimitar kills first enemy.
1.2 Scimitar fires at 2nd enemy making him flinch and stopping him from shooting.
1.25 Claymore kills.
1.8 Scimitar kills enemy, the enemy that was killed did not fire a single shot back
2.4 Scimitar shoots at 3rd enemy causing him to flinch and not fire back.
2.5 Claymore kills enemy.
3.0 Scimitar kills enemy. Enemy did not get to shoot back.

Difference in time taken to kill 0.5 seconds. Shots received by the player that used the Scimitar was less then the Claymore user, negating the fact he spent longer out of cover. This is why I maintain that it does not matter that it takes 0.5 longer to kill with the Scimitar.
Feel free to disagree with this, and I can see how you would say that against a single enemy the Claymore lets you dive for cover 0.5 seconds earlier and thats a valid point, I just don't find it very significant compared to the damage avoided against groups, nor the fact that you also get another weapon to use if that is your preferred playestyle.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 18 février 2010 - 07:16 .

[RamsenC]

While I am going to go Claymore for my next Vanguard I agree with sinosleep/dannok. Claymore damage is overkill for the most part. I can already one shot the average enemy with the Evi, and if it doesn't one shot a quick melee will finish them off. The Vindicator or Viper are just too nice in certain situations. After playing my soldier I think I'm in love with the Viper. It shoots so fast and its actually usable at close range, I was fighting husks with it, although adrenaline rush helped.

Modifié par RamsenC, 18 février 2010 - 07:18 .

[Kronner]

NG+ really changed my mind about Shotties, Claymore was clear winner for me. I do understand why would someone rather use Evi/Scimitar, I just do not agree that they do comparable damage in the game as pure numbers show, cos it is vastly different in the game and I found the "hit them hard and cover" tactic the best for me.

[_Dannok1234]

Don't doubt it for NG+, gotta agree with that. It's a whole other thing then doing it the normal way due to lack of upgrades and stuff like that. I was thinking in more in the lines of normal play

[sinosleep]

Pre-upgrades in an NG+ game I can see how it might be an issue, but I just did the suicide mission at level 30, so for all intents and purposes that last level WAS an ng+ playthrough since I was a cap any way. With all that, I can still take down harbinger in 5 shots from armor with the scimitar.

[Kronner]

sinosleep wrote...

Pre-upgrades in an NG+ game I can see how it might be an issue, but I just did the suicide mission at level 30, so for all intents and purposes that last level WAS an ng+ playthrough since I was a cap any way. With all that, I can still take down harbinger in 5 shots from armor with the scimitar.

5 shots when he has ONLY armor or armor+barrier?
And its not the same since you had all the upgrades in the final mission - you do not have them in the first parts of the NG+.

[Mordigan]

Kronner wrote...

I found the "hit them hard and cover" tactic the best for me.

Yep, thats exactly how I play on insanity..

The Claymore's enormous damage makes this sort of style very efficient, since most enemies die after only one shot which means minimum exposure...

Using the reload trick and headshots whenever possible makes it even better.

Just to give an example, a single well placed headshot with the Claymore can absolutely obliterate in one shot an Eclipse Asari Vanguard's barrier on insanity.  And by obliterate, I mean remove the barrier completely and take her down into the red zone. 

Thats pretty impressive, because her barrier must be around 1,000 points or so if I'm to guess. 

[Kurupt87]

early on in ng+ the scim does suck, bad, takes way too long to kill things. as soon as you got the 50% shield penetration upgrade though its back to being really good. during early stages i used the evi/geth AR with only a smattering of charges, mainly as finishers/mopping up. of course, i am biased as i love the scimitar playstyle compared to the claymore one, i suspect its mainly because i'm constantly having to do something and the ability to control crowds.

[sinosleep]

Honestly the NG+ issues aren't ever really going to be an issue or me as I have no plans on ever playing NG+ any way. NG+ sounds like what I originally thought insanity was going to be in this game. I did my first playthrough on hardcore because based off of the ME 1 experience I figured it was just going to be obscenely large health/defense bars and no actual fun. After that playthrough I tried insanity in all subsequent playthroughs and loved it, but from everything I've heard NG + sounds like it's a lot closer to ME 1 insanity than I want to deal with. I don't think being forced into using nothing but the absolute heaviest hitting weapons due to the retarded amount of shots it takes to kill things will be fun for me. I did it in ME 1 just to do it, but I'm not doing stuff like that any more. I've finally gotten past that thing in my head that was always telling me I had to play everything at the absolute hardest setting, I think I'm perfectly happy sticking with fresh insanity runs and leaving NG+ to those that like that kind of thing.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 février 2010 - 08:23 .

[Kronner]

OK I decided to load an old save and record Collector Ship deck fight (did not use squad powers, except when I ordered my team to concentrate on the first Scion, they used all they have on him and killed him by themselves), now it did not go as well as I wanted it to go (do not understand why my second shot at the first harbinger did not hit, charge did not work for me when I really needed it in the end, etc.) but when I charge the three Drones after I kill the first Harbinger, it shows you can deal with 3 ordinary guys really fast and without problems, so it ain't just slow-ass firing weapon, even if I did not use the reload trick, I could still take them down quite fast.

www.youtube.com/watch

(will be available in 360, 480, 720 and 1080p when its fully processed)

Anyways, I am done with this Vanguard build and I am gonna finish my AR Vanguard using Evi as my primary shotgun.
I am probably gonna try sniper rifle as a bonus too, it's just that it seems weird to me (Vanguard+Sniper), but sinosleep's videos, especially the mech ones convinced me to give it a try

[Kronner]

sinosleep wrote...

Honestly the NG+ issues aren't ever really going to be an issue or me as I have no plans on ever playing NG+ any way. NG+ sounds like what I originally thought insanity was going to be in this game. I did my first playthrough on hardcore because based off of the ME 1 experience I figured it was just going to be obscenely large health/defense bars and no actual fun. After that playthrough I tried insanity in all subsequent playthroughs and loved it, but from everything I've heard NG + sounds like it's a lot closer to ME 1 insanity than I want to deal with. I don't think being forced into using nothing but the absolute heaviest hitting weapons due to the retarded amount of shots it takes to kill things will be fun for me. I did it in ME 1 just to do it, but I'm not doing stuff like that any more. I've finally gotten past that thing in my head that was always telling me I had to play everything at the absolute hardest setting, I think I'm perfectly happy sticking with fresh insanity runs and leaving NG+ to those that like that kind of thing.

Well, I did it just out of curiosity, it was not THAT much harder, but challenging nevertheless.

btw what about that Harbinger full armor = 5 shots (did you mean just armor or armor+barrier?, thanks)

[sinosleep]

Kronner wrote..
btw what about that Harbinger full armor = 5 shots (did you mean just armor or armor+barrier?, thanks)

Just the armor, I took another shot to kill the barrier cause I have my squad warp while I'm charging. 

[DesolCobra]

I have a question on vanguard survivability... isn't it better to use squad's power to overload weapons so the vanguard doesn't get shot at after charge? I've seen those videos on Barrier/GSB/Fort and how bad it is vs a single vorcha (thx sinosleep). If you overload that vorcha u can probably outlast the Barrier / GSB / Fort in the same situation...the vorcha simply can't fire .

[Hailcloud]

DesolCobra wrote...

I have a question on vanguard survivability... isn't it better to use squad's power to overload weapons so the vanguard doesn't get shot at after charge? I've seen those videos on Barrier/GSB/Fort and how bad it is vs a single vorcha (thx sinosleep). If you overload that vorcha u can probably outlast the Barrier / GSB / Fort in the same situation...the vorcha simply can't fire .

Interesting point.  Does anyone know if Overload will overload an enemy's weapons if the enemy still has its protection up?  I've never really thought about that.

[_Dannok1234]

sinosleep wrote...

[snip snip..]
I've finally gotten past that thing in my head that was always telling me I had to play everything at the absolute hardest setting, I think I'm perfectly happy sticking with fresh insanity runs and leaving NG+ to those that like that kind of thing.

OT but..

I was just thinking about this today. I've been playing insanity since my first run on hardcore. But thinking about it I think I actually prefer hardcore as it seems to be somehow more realistic then Insanity. Just doesn't seem right that the enemies should have better weapons and armor then me and my gang. Although, hardcore does tend to feel a bit too easy now that I'm used to insanity, it's becoming some sort of internal struggle for which difficulty to play on hehe

[Kurupt87]

Hailcloud wrote...

DesolCobra wrote...

I have a question on vanguard survivability... isn't it better to use squad's power to overload weapons so the vanguard doesn't get shot at after charge? I've seen those videos on Barrier/GSB/Fort and how bad it is vs a single vorcha (thx sinosleep). If you overload that vorcha u can probably outlast the Barrier / GSB / Fort in the same situation...the vorcha simply can't fire .

Interesting point.  Does anyone know if Overload will overload an enemy's weapons if the enemy still has its protection up?  I've never really thought about that.

only disables weps if enemy has no protection. makes flamethrower enemies explode when they have no protection, very satisfying, hate those guys, especially the blue suns ones, stupid range on 'em.

Modifié par Kurupt87, 18 février 2010 - 11:21 .

[RamsenC]

I'm not noticing much of a difference on NG+ insanity with the Evi, although I do use AP ammo. It still performs as expected and once you upgrade shield piercing it should be the same thing. NG+ seems pointless, might as well try something new. All in all it feels about the same as my first time through.



note: I'm basing this off the omega missions.

[Frosty Ananth]

So:

Does the Eviscerator at least come close to the Claymore? I'd really like a long-range option for some fights if I can avoid choosing the Claymore.

And let me get this straight:  Inferno Ammo is 60% instant damage against everything besides health where it dots and panics?  Is the only difference between synth and organic is that synths don't panic?

Modifié par Frosty Ananth, 19 février 2010 - 12:57 .

[harleyflames20000]

gotta say, ive just started using the charge and shotty tactic....JESUS CHRIST, epic win, nice one OP, when i get the re-train abilities upgrade, i think i'll max out cryo instead of incendary and get that working too

[thisisme8]

harleyflames20000 wrote...

gotta say, ive just started using the charge and shotty tactic....JESUS CHRIST, epic win, nice one OP, when i get the re-train abilities upgrade, i think i'll max out cryo instead of incendary and get that working too

Harley, there have been major revisions to some of my thoughts as posted in the OP, if I were to have written that post today, I would suggest Incendiary over AP, and the last build I had with a Vanguard was:

4 Incendiary Ammo (Inferno Rounds)
4 Cryo Ammo (Squad Cryo)
4 Charge (Heavy Charge)
4 Shockwave (Improved Shockwave)  Although, really you don't need this one.
1 Pull  (one is all you need)
4 Assault (Champion)

If I could max Pull without sacrificing one of the other skills, I would, but since I need 3 points in Shockwave to unlock it, I cant...  man, I wish they gave you 54 instead of 51 points...

I really need to update the actual guide portion.

[Darnalak]

thisisme8 wrote...

harleyflames20000 wrote...

gotta say, ive just started using the charge and shotty tactic....JESUS CHRIST, epic win, nice one OP, when i get the re-train abilities upgrade, i think i'll max out cryo instead of incendary and get that working too

Harley, there have been major revisions to some of my thoughts as posted in the OP, if I were to have written that post today, I would suggest Incendiary over AP, and the last build I had with a Vanguard was:

4 Incendiary Ammo (Inferno Rounds)
4 Cryo Ammo (Squad Cryo)
4 Charge (Heavy Charge)
4 Shockwave (Improved Shockwave)  Although, really you don't need this one.
1 Pull  (one is all you need)
4 Assault (Champion)

If I could max Pull without sacrificing one of the other skills, I would, but since I need 3 points in Shockwave to unlock it, I cant...  man, I wish they gave you 54 instead of 51 points...

I really need to update the actual guide portion.

^ and this, ladies and gentlemen is the new standard... Thou shalt not use thy Bonus power for it shows thee to be a wimp!