2583 réponses à ce sujet

[RamsenC]

VirtualAlex wrote...

 Hasn't it been pretty much accepted that Reave is totally imbalanced and is the best skill on all classes?

Reave has no synergy with a charge centric vanguard, which is what you should be playing if you are a vanguard. You could hide behind a crate and cast reave all day, but at that point you should be a different class. Vanguard needs no help on damage, just abilities that help make charge tactics less risky (pull, neural shock, crippling slam).

Pull is by far the best since you can get an AoE version, has a short cooldown, works on all enemy types, and warp detonates it. 

[Iz Stoik zI]

I've found that Reave is a decent bonus power to have on a Vanguard, but really a VG doesn't even need a Bonus power. Our class has everything we need built in already, so Reave is mainly just used as a fast-recharging situational biotic attack that's reserved for unprotected organics.



Area Reave can come in handy to strip the armor off of an entire group of Husks at once, but it's not necessary. Stripping the shields with another ability and hitting them with Heavy(Improved?) Shockwave or Area Pull works just as well.

[RamsenC]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

Area Reave can come in handy to strip the armor off of an entire group of Husks at once, but it's not necessary. Stripping the shields with another ability and hitting them with Heavy(Improved?) Shockwave or Area Pull works just as well.

Theres also the option of bringing Samara along for area reave whenever you fight husks. Turning off squad powers and using them when it makes sense is the way to go. Morinth is especially nice since she gives you a cooldown free dominate, but few are evil enough to take her D:

[BeyondFX]

Cinematic Grunt Recruitment - Insanity

I had a lot of fun cutting this video together and tying it in with the music. It's less about strategy (although it does show some), and more to make people go 'Wow I want to try a vanguard.' This was a no death run until I got to Jedore where I was adjusting my strategy for entertainment purposes. Normally I'll just sit in a corner and wittle the krogan down before moving out.

Next up is horizon

[Sabresandiego]

Ramsen is your argument that although reave is the best ability, it does not fit with your view of the vanguard playstyle and thus taking something else is a better choice? I somewhat agree with this and somewhat disagree. I love charging in and blasting things with my shotgun like any vanguard. But what I hate more is dying because I charged in and played too aggressively. I find that reave makes playing my vanguard more fun, because I can soften enemies up before I charge in and tear them apart. Area Reave also sets up super strong biotic combos by stripping enemies of their defenses. Area Pull + Unstable Warp after using area reave to strip defenses is very powerful. Anything which survives the warp explosion is mopped up by charge and shotgun.

[thisisme8]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Ramsen is your argument that although reave is the best ability, it does not fit with your view of the vanguard playstyle and thus taking something else is a better choice? I somewhat agree with this and somewhat disagree. I love charging in and blasting things with my shotgun like any vanguard. But what I hate more is dying because I charged in and played too aggressively. I find that reave makes playing my vanguard more fun, because I can soften enemies up before I charge in and tear them apart. Area Reave also sets up super strong biotic combos by stripping enemies of their defenses. Area Pull + Unstable Warp after using area reave to strip defenses is very powerful. Anything which survives the warp explosion is mopped up by charge and shotgun.

My take on Reave is this:

If I take a bonus power, it should compliment my strengths (in this case, Charging and shooting the shotgun).  A bonus power that interferes with my strengths is a no go.

Thing about Vanguards, you have to be able to Charge ASAP.
1.  To refill shields
2.  To immediately close the gap at key, opportune times.
3.  To remove opposition as quickly as possible.
That's in no particular order

If I choose Reave, I now have to deal with a cooldown, and I don't like cooldowns on my Vanguard.  Enemies that I want to 'whittle' down before Charging will receive a complimentary grenade or SMG/Pistol fire long before I feel the need to take anything else.

[Jaekahn]

thisisme8 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Ramsen is your argument that although reave is the best ability, it does not fit with your view of the vanguard playstyle and thus taking something else is a better choice? I somewhat agree with this and somewhat disagree. I love charging in and blasting things with my shotgun like any vanguard. But what I hate more is dying because I charged in and played too aggressively. I find that reave makes playing my vanguard more fun, because I can soften enemies up before I charge in and tear them apart. Area Reave also sets up super strong biotic combos by stripping enemies of their defenses. Area Pull + Unstable Warp after using area reave to strip defenses is very powerful. Anything which survives the warp explosion is mopped up by charge and shotgun.

My take on Reave is this:

If I take a bonus power, it should compliment my strengths (in this case, Charging and shooting the shotgun).  A bonus power that interferes with my strengths is a no go.

Thing about Vanguards, you have to be able to Charge ASAP.
1.  To refill shields
2.  To immediately close the gap at key, opportune times.
3.  To remove opposition as quickly as possible.
That's in no particular order

If I choose Reave, I now have to deal with a cooldown, and I don't like cooldowns on my Vanguard.  Enemies that I want to 'whittle' down before Charging will receive a complimentary grenade or SMG/Pistol fire long before I feel the need to take anything else.

You, sir, amaze me with what you know about the Vanguard class. Vanguards is the class that I know the least about, but I intend to pursue once I finish my Engineer Guide and perhaps a Sentinel or Infiltrator guide. Though  Infiltrator seems somewhat pointless since you've been working on one yourself.

[RamsenC]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Ramsen is your argument that although reave is the best ability, it does not fit with your view of the vanguard playstyle and thus taking something else is a better choice? I somewhat agree with this and somewhat disagree. I love charging in and blasting things with my shotgun like any vanguard. But what I hate more is dying because I charged in and played too aggressively. I find that reave makes playing my vanguard more fun, because I can soften enemies up before I charge in and tear them apart. Area Reave also sets up super strong biotic combos by stripping enemies of their defenses. Area Pull + Unstable Warp after using area reave to strip defenses is very powerful. Anything which survives the warp explosion is mopped up by charge and shotgun.

Thisisme covered what I was going to say. The main issue with Reave is the cooldown. Anytime charge is on cooldown is a bad time. 

[Sabresandiego]

thisisme8 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Ramsen is your argument that although reave is the best ability, it does not fit with your view of the vanguard playstyle and thus taking something else is a better choice? I somewhat agree with this and somewhat disagree. I love charging in and blasting things with my shotgun like any vanguard. But what I hate more is dying because I charged in and played too aggressively. I find that reave makes playing my vanguard more fun, because I can soften enemies up before I charge in and tear them apart. Area Reave also sets up super strong biotic combos by stripping enemies of their defenses. Area Pull + Unstable Warp after using area reave to strip defenses is very powerful. Anything which survives the warp explosion is mopped up by charge and shotgun.

My take on Reave is this:

If I take a bonus power, it should compliment my strengths (in this case, Charging and shooting the shotgun).  A bonus power that interferes with my strengths is a no go.

Thing about Vanguards, you have to be able to Charge ASAP.
1.  To refill shields
2.  To immediately close the gap at key, opportune times.
3.  To remove opposition as quickly as possible.
That's in no particular order

If I choose Reave, I now have to deal with a cooldown, and I don't like cooldowns on my Vanguard.  Enemies that I want to 'whittle' down before Charging will receive a complimentary grenade or SMG/Pistol fire long before I feel the need to take anything else.

Your post is absolutely correct in that charge needs to be ready to be fired at a moments notice when you are in danger. That is why you only use reave when you are safe or when you first spot an enemy and get behind cover. It strips their defenses and you can get a quick look at the battlefield while your biotics are cooling down. Once you have either deemed it safe to charge in, or have stripped their defenses with reave + squad biotic combos,  you can charge in and mop up all you want. This playstyle is much safer then charging in recklessly, kills enemies just as fast, and most of all prevents needless deaths from charging in to a pack of enemies who have their full defenses up.

Reave has the exact same cooldown as charge, which after upgrades is something near 4 seconds. One area reave + squad biotic combo of your choice will do way more damage to a large group of enemies than trying to whittle at them with long range weapons. Then you just charge in like normal and blast away with your shotgun to mop up. Scimitar is best for this strategy because you dont need 1 shot kill power to clean up after softening with reave. I would argue that this strategy is the fastest way to clear the game, for the sole reason that you never die since you never charge recklessly. Area Reave + pull field + warp explosion only delays your charge by 4 seconds, but now every enemy is much more vulnerable and you are less likely to be killed yourself.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 février 2010 - 11:54 .

[rumination888]

If I'm going to play the "whittle the enemy down from afar before pushing forward" game, I'd rather play another class thats better at it. If the only class you play is Vanguard and you refuse to play the other classes, then yes, picking up Reave is a sound idea.

Modifié par rumination888, 24 février 2010 - 11:59 .

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...

If I'm going to play the "whittle the enemy down from afar before pushing forward" game, I'd rather play another class thats better at it. If the only class you play is Vanguard and you refuse to play the other classes, then yes, picking up Reave is a sound idea.

Yup, most enemies in the game can be charged willy nilly while they've got full health and defenses going. There are only a few things in game I play the whittle down game with, and that's pretty much just protereans (which I'm sure I misspelled) and YMIR mechs. Most anything else, charge away. 

[RamsenC]

Sounds like you might like Adept, they whittle so well I don't think I can even call it whittling.

[Sabresandiego]

rumination888 wrote...

If I'm going to play the "whittle the enemy down from afar before pushing forward" game, I'd rather play another class thats better at it. If the only class you play is Vanguard and you refuse to play the other classes, then yes, picking up Reave is a sound idea.

Lets use insanity suicide mission part 1 as an example of reave strategy vs no reave strategy.

Full Reave Strategy: Hide behind cover and use reave and biotics to win. Finish Speed: Medium, chance of death = very low
This strategy I do not use because its not as fun

Reave Soften strategy: I fire area reave into a group, pull field, and warp explosion. 4 second later I charge in and kill all survivors. Do I sit behind cover only casting reave? no, I only use my initial reave and biotic combo to soften for the charge. This soften strategy takes 4  seconds and prevents my death. Finish Speed: Fast with low risk of death

Non reave strategy: I charge in and gun everyone down with my shotgun. My chance of death is greatly increased, especially if I make a mistake. I fall into low health several times. Finish Speed: Fast with a high risk of death

The choice is clear. It takes only 4 seconds to soften an enemy with reave + biotics and also get a view of what you are charging into.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2010 - 12:10 .

[RamsenC]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Non reave strategy: I charge in and gun everyone down with my shotgun. My chance of death is greatly increased, especially if I make a mistake. I fall into low health several times. Finish Speed: Fast with a high risk of death

Isn't that what the Vanguard is all about ?

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Non reave strategy: I charge in and gun everyone down with my shotgun. My chance of death is greatly increased, especially if I make a mistake. I fall into low health several times. Finish Speed: Fast with a high risk of death

Isn't that what the Vanguard is all about ?

Charging in recklessly is why everyone was complaining the vanguard sucked a few weeks ago. Using charge intelligently makes vanguard the best class in the game. The risk of death with only 1 reave + biotic combo before charging is signifcantly reduced over charging into full defense enemies head on. I am playing on Insanity+ and I never die with this strategy. I do die if I charge in recklessly and blast away.

[RamsenC]

I never said to charge in recklessly, I was just implying you do not have to whittle anything down first.

I actually used to prefer reave, but as I got better at charging I realized it wasn't needed.

Modifié par RamsenC, 25 février 2010 - 12:20 .

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

I never said to charge in recklessly, I was just implying you do not have to whittle anything down first.

I actually used to prefer reave, but as I got better at charging I realized it wasn't needed.

You are right that reave isnt needed. I can clear an area just fine by using charge alone. The difference is that I will usually die at some point in the run because I have not memorized the game and will sometimes make a bad charge, then try to get to cover but find myself unable to. With reave softening my insanity+ run is nearly flawless. It really makes a difference in how often you have to reload. Im still charging and blasting away, Im just not dying nearly as often (almost never), and its kind of fun to do something besides just charging once in awhile.

Vanguard is IMO the most powerful class in the game, if you have reave.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2010 - 12:38 .

[thisisme8]

Sabresandiego wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

I never said to charge in recklessly, I was just implying you do not have to whittle anything down first.

I actually used to prefer reave, but as I got better at charging I realized it wasn't needed.

You are right that reave isnt needed. I can clear an area just fine by using charge alone. The difference is that I will usually die at some point in the run because I have not memorized the game and will sometimes make a bad charge, then try to get to cover but find myself unable to. With reave softening my insanity+ run is nearly flawless. It really makes a difference in how often you have to reload. Im still charging and blasting away, Im just not dying nearly as often (almost never), and its kind of fun to do something besides just charging once in awhile.

Vanguard is IMO the most powerful class in the game, if you have reave.

Sabresandiego, Reave is cool and all.  It's not a power that can be wrong.  For me, I use Squad Cryo to assist me in keeping the 'other' enemies in control.  Take a look at my video in the OP for a perfect example of me going all out Charging through (coincidentally) the first part of the last mission, while Squad Cryo helps keep the other Collectors off my back.

[Sabresandiego]

thisisme8 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

I never said to charge in recklessly, I was just implying you do not have to whittle anything down first.

I actually used to prefer reave, but as I got better at charging I realized it wasn't needed.

You are right that reave isnt needed. I can clear an area just fine by using charge alone. The difference is that I will usually die at some point in the run because I have not memorized the game and will sometimes make a bad charge, then try to get to cover but find myself unable to. With reave softening my insanity+ run is nearly flawless. It really makes a difference in how often you have to reload. Im still charging and blasting away, Im just not dying nearly as often (almost never), and its kind of fun to do something besides just charging once in awhile.

Vanguard is IMO the most powerful class in the game, if you have reave.

Sabresandiego, Reave is cool and all.  It's not a power that can be wrong.  For me, I use Squad Cryo to assist me in keeping the 'other' enemies in control.  Take a look at my video in the OP for a perfect example of me going all out Charging through (coincidentally) the first part of the last mission, while Squad Cryo helps keep the other Collectors off my back.

I saw your video, and squad cryo looks fun. I am going to try squad cryo, which I think will be even better with my strategy. My general strategy will be to fire 1 reave + a squad biotic combo before charging in. This puts me about 4 seconds behind someone who charges straight away, however my enemies have severely reduced defenses and are now far more vulnerable to both my own incendiary ammo AOE, and my squad cryo. It sounds awesome I will have to try it.

[Mavkiel]

I am wondering how slam is for a vanguard. I got to thinking that its a semi useful way to take a person out of a fight for a wee bit. For those times an enemy is in a bad place to charge.



Imo, it'd probably be most useful for a vanguard that didnt take AR or sniper rifle weapon bonus. I am kind of biased in favor of slam though, it just looks neat.

[thisisme8]

Sabresandiego wrote...

I saw your video, and squad cryo looks fun. I am going to try squad cryo, which I think will be even better with my strategy. My general strategy will be to fire 1 reave + a squad biotic combo before charging in. This puts me about 4 seconds behind someone who charges straight away, however my enemies have severely reduced defenses and are now far more vulnerable to both my own incendiary ammo AOE, and my squad cryo. It sounds awesome I will have to try it.

Cool.  Actually, take a look at all the vids.  They're in the OP for a reason, and they really show that with more practice, less whittling is needed.  Besides, that's what squadmates are good for...  whittling so you don't have to.

[thisisme8]

Mavkiel wrote...

I am wondering how slam is for a vanguard. I got to thinking that its a semi useful way to take a person out of a fight for a wee bit. For those times an enemy is in a bad place to charge.

Imo, it'd probably be most useful for a vanguard that didnt take AR or sniper rifle weapon bonus. I am kind of biased in favor of slam though, it just looks neat.

Look around pages 32-36 or so...  RamsenC was testing it out.  I think he liked it.

[RamsenC]

I did like it, but pull is still better. Damn that wonderful ability.

My Vanguard vs Husks video shows squad cryo in action if anyone is interested. 

I'll say one more anti-reave thing. It only softens up blood pact and collector enemies. Most enemies will be of the shield and health variety which makes reave pointless for the whittling. I'd also rather have a slightly longer cooldown reave from samara that does not effect my global cooldowns.

Modifié par RamsenC, 25 février 2010 - 01:49 .

[VirtualAlex]

Gatsby said it in another thread, but basically any class with reave, is better than that class without reave simply because reave is so good. Obviously it's easier and safer to cast reave first thing in a fight.



Reave is so OP it's almost cheating. I never use it unless samara is with me for fear of being corrupted into just reaving everything. The skill just dominates and outshines all the other skills. Charge is a very unique and interesting skill so I wouldn't say reave out-shines charge. However all classes can successfully use reave and do very well with it. If you can play with it and still let a vanguard be a vanguard then by all means.



But I really don't think you need reave to be successful at all.

[Sabresandiego]

VirtualAlex wrote...

Gatsby said it in another thread, but basically any class with reave, is better than that class without reave simply because reave is so good. Obviously it's easier and safer to cast reave first thing in a fight.

Reave is so OP it's almost cheating. I never use it unless samara is with me for fear of being corrupted into just reaving everything. The skill just dominates and outshines all the other skills. Charge is a very unique and interesting skill so I wouldn't say reave out-shines charge. However all classes can successfully use reave and do very well with it. If you can play with it and still let a vanguard be a vanguard then by all means.

But I really don't think you need reave to be successful at all.

Good post, and its exactly what I was trying to say. You dont need Reave to be successful with a vanguard at all. But the most powerful vanguard is a reave vanguard because you have an answer for every situation. I honestly think charge is the best ability in the game, followed by reave at number 2, and warp at number 3. And you dont need both reave and warp on the same character. I feel that a reave vanguard is the most powerful class in the game.