2583 réponses à ce sujet

[RamsenC]

Gatsby also said Vanguard was fun, but not functional at one point. Hes cool no doubt but he can be wrong. I'm pretty sure he changed his mind on Vanguard though.

In a vacuum reave is insanely good, but that doesn't mean you should get it on every class.

Modifié par RamsenC, 25 février 2010 - 02:06 .

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

Gatsby also said Vanguard was fun, but not functional at one point. Hes cool no doubt but he can be wrong. I'm pretty sure he changed his mind on Vanguard though.

In a vacuum reave is insanely good, but that doesn't mean you should get it on every class.

Reave synergizes with vanguard perfectly though. It gives me a ranged area attack, and softens enemies so that I can tear them up when I charge in. Vanguard cooldown reductions work on reave, and its a great tool to have. I honestly dont think any bonus power even comes close to reave for a vanguard.

[RamsenC]

Reave does not synergize with Vanguard because Vanguards are not about stripping defenses. In fact its harder to kill an enemy you charged at when its at health only because it goes flying out of shotgun range. Also as I said before you can still get Samara for area Reave for a slightly longer cooldown that does not effect your charging.

This means you can use the reave incapacitate to your advantage and charge in. If you wait for the reave cooldown the incap period will be over or close to over by the time you can charge. Your argument is a little more valid if you picked Claymore I suppose, but I have the Viper on my last Vanguard completion save.

Modifié par RamsenC, 25 février 2010 - 02:15 .

[sinosleep]

I gotta agree with RamsenC here, I don't think reave, or anything with a CD time longer than 3 seconds goes well with a vanguard.

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

Reave does not synergize with Vanguard because Vanguards are not about stripping defenses. In fact its harder to kill an enemy you charged at when its at health only because it goes flying out of shotgun range. Also as I said before you can still get Samara for area Reave for a slightly longer cooldown that does not effect your charging.

This means you can use the reave incapacitate to your advantage and charge in. If you wait for the reave cooldown the incap period will be over or close to over by the time you can charge. Your argument is a little more valid if you picked Claymore I suppose, but I have the Viper on my last Vanguard completion save.

Vanguards are about close combat. Id rather be in close combat with someone who is half dead than someone who is at full defenses. Its simple logic. Reave can easily be abused where you can beat the game with just reaving, which does kind of suck. But if you dont abuse it, and only use it to soften the enemy before charging you can still enjoy the vanguard playstyle and use reave. Casting reave + a squad biotic combo puts you only 1 cooldown, which is just over 4 seconds, behind a vanguard who straight up charges in and blasts away at enemy with full defenses.

The choice is simple

A: Fire reave + biotic combo, charge 4 seconds later and shotgun blast enemies with crippled defenses

B: Be rambo and charge into enemies with full defenses up, which is fun until you die and then reload.

If you want to do an insanity+ vanguard run with little to no deaths than a reave vanguard is the way to play.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2010 - 02:25 .

[padaE]

I also agree with RamsenC

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I don't choose Reave for the Vanguard because you really don't need it. You don't need to take down enemys defenses... team mates power are more than enough for this.

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Vanguard is like soldier, they really don't need any bonus skill, I pick AP ammo because it's a bit better than Incendiary ammo.

[rumination888]

None of the classes need bonus skills per se. Spamming Adrenaline Rush, Charge, Cloak, Tech Armor, and Drone is really all you need. And you can get whatever else you might want from squadmates, ammo included.

[RamsenC]

The thing is I already one shot or one shot+melee enemies as is. It does not matter how much defenses they have left, if I'm near them they are dead. I don't die because enemies have too much health, I die because I did something wrong.

On top of all that I still have access to Reave from Samara. You can't ignore a cooldown free reave even if you can't use it quite as often. Honestly, you shouldn't need Reave every 4s anyways.

edit: Maybe you don't play this way, but I turn off squad powers and use them as if they were my own. The options this opens up are amazing. For example I can have Samara Reave a collector followed by a Pull from me, Tali's combat drone at another enemy, and charge at the other two enemies. With this tactic I can charge at four enemies and come away clean. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 25 février 2010 - 02:39 .

[padaE]

rumination888 wrote...

None of the classes need bonus skills per se. Spamming Adrenaline Rush, Charge, Cloak, Tech Armor, and Drone is really all you need. And you can get whatever else you might want from squadmates, ammo included.

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Yeah sure, but other classes get a huge advantage with AP Ammo. 

[sinosleep]

RamsenC wrote...

The thing is I already one shot or one shot+melee enemies as is. It does not matter how much defenses they have left, if I'm near them they are dead. I don't die because enemies have too much health, I die because I did something wrong.

On top of all that I still have access to Reave from Samara. You can't ignore a cooldown free reave even if you can't use it quite as often. Honestly, you shouldn't need Reave every 4s anyways.

edit: Maybe you don't play this way, but I turn off squad powers and use them as if they were my own. The options this opens up are amazing. For example I can have Samara Reave a collector followed by a Pull from me, Tali's combat drone at another enemy, and charge at the other two enemies. With this tactic I can charge at four enemies and come away clean. 

That's the way I play. If I'm going to soften up anyone I'm not going to be the one doing the softening and it's not going to interfere with my charge. Instead I just hotkey a squad ability, hotkey my charge, hotkey another squad ability, and they all go off while the first charge is connecting.

[rumination888]

padaE wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

None of the classes need bonus skills per se. Spamming Adrenaline Rush, Charge, Cloak, Tech Armor, and Drone is really all you need. And you can get whatever else you might want from squadmates, ammo included.

.
Yeah sure, but other classes get a huge advantage with AP Ammo. 

Not really.

[PhatalFaZe]

You don't always have to charge in 24/7. With the addition of the Eviscerator using an Assault Rifle is almost a must. Sure there are a ton of opportunities to charge and do damage, but there are just as many opportunities to Reave and put enemies down with a few carefully placed AR bursts. Reave gives you a lot of combat options. Sure stripped enemies are going to die relatively soon at any rate, but the dual ranged damage effective of an area reave and Inferno rounds is going to cover a broad range that does tons of damage in combination with a Miranda, Garrus, or Thane combination of overloads and warps.

Charging is huge for a Vanguard...no doubt about it, but the Vanguard with decent combat upgrades on Insanity can also be quite a significant option from range, and using bioitic abilities on stripped enemies can be fun as well as effective.

One fun situation is having a group of shielded enemies raining fire down on you while you're in cover. Sure you could take a few moments to find an area where you can charge in safely and go nuts with a shotgun, or perhaps you could just focus on one opponents with the AR, strip him of defenses , pull him out of cover and then have Miranda slam him in midflight at favorable situation where you can then set up a chain charge to THEN use your shotgun. Things like this make the game fun, and area reave and inferno rounds are effective long range options that slow stripped opponents down and give more depth for the long range game.

My setup:

Assault Training: 4 Points: Champion
Charge: 4 points Heavy Charge
Reave : 4 points Area Reave
Incendiary Rounds: 4 points Inferno rounds
Shockwave: 2 points
Pull : 1 point

I've had a lot of fun with it.

[padaE]

PhatalFaZe wrote...

You don't always have to charge in 24/7. With the addition of the Eviscerator using an Assault Rifle is almost a must. Sure there are a ton of opportunities to charge and do damage, but there are just as many opportunities to Reave and put enemies down with a few carefully placed AR bursts. Reave gives you a lot of combat options. Sure stripped enemies are going to die relatively soon at any rate, but the dual ranged damage effective of an area reave and Inferno rounds is going to cover a broad range that does tons of damage in combination with a Miranda, Garrus, or Thane combination of overloads and warps.

Charging is huge for a Vanguard...no doubt about it, but the Vanguard with decent combat upgrades on Insanity can also be quite a significant option from range, and using bioitic abilities on stripped enemies can be fun as well as effective.

One fun situation is having a group of shielded enemies raining fire down on you while you're in cover. Sure you could take a few moments to find an area where you can charge in safely and go nuts with a shotgun, or perhaps you could just focus on one opponents with the AR, strip him of defenses , pull him out of cover and then have Miranda slam him in midflight at favorable situation where you can then set up a chain charge to THEN use your shotgun. Things like this make the game fun, and area reave and inferno rounds are effective long range options that slow stripped opponents down and give more depth for the long range game.

My setup:

Assault Training: 4 Points: Champion
Charge: 4 points Heavy Charge
Reave : 4 points Area Reave
Incendiary Rounds: 4 points Inferno rounds
Shockwave: 2 points
Pull : 1 point

I've had a lot of fun with it.

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I tryed Reave with my Vanguard for this exact reason but I almost never used it. Although what you say is 100% true, I found it a waste of time.
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I just charged. 
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It's a valid play style though. 

[Sabresandiego]

The problem with just charging is the high risk of death. Having reave gives you something to do while you are scoping the battlefield and looking for a place that is safe to charge. A biotic vanguard that only uses charge to finish people off or replenish shields, but instead kills enemies with reave + warp explosions and other biotics has a much better chance of running a deathless insanity playthrough. I personally prefer a middle ground where I switch between reaving with biotic combos and charging with the shotgun.

[aeetos21]

lol @ "deathless insanity playthrough"

[padaE]

Sabresandiego wrote...

The problem with just charging is the high risk of death. Having reave gives you something to do while you are scoping the battlefield and looking for a place that is safe to charge. A biotic vanguard that only uses charge to finish people off or replenish shields, but instead kills enemies with reave + warp explosions and other biotics has a much better chance of running a deathless insanity playthrough. I personally prefer a middle ground where I switch between reaving with biotic combos and charging with the shotgun.

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But you have also to consider enemy respawn. When you use that strategy, you will always give time for the enemys to respawn, while a charging Vanguard don't. 

[matt654321]

Personally I think that barrier is the best for vanguards if only because it saves you when you "can't get a lock." Mash barrier's hotkey and bolt for cover and you might survive.

[Sabresandiego]

I have not tested cryo ammo yet, wont be able to until tomorrow after my test, which I should be studying for right now. But here is my hypothetical perfect build for vanguard.



10 points in Heavy Charge

10 points in Champion

10 points in Inferno Ammo

10 points in Squad Cryo Ammo

10 points in Reave



The strategy with this build would be to play as a biotic/close combat hybrid. You would use area reave and squad biotic combos to weaken packs of enemies meanwhile scouting the battlefield for a smart place to charge. You would then charge in with your scimitar shotgun to clean house, your incendiary ammo and squad cryo would make sure that you wont be taking fire from multiple hostiles.

[Iz Stoik zI]

Sabresandiego wrote...

The problem with just charging is the high risk of death. Having reave gives you something to do while you are scoping the battlefield and looking for a place that is safe to charge. A biotic vanguard that only uses charge to finish people off or replenish shields, but instead kills enemies with reave + warp explosions and other biotics has a much better chance of running a deathless insanity playthrough. I personally prefer a middle ground where I switch between reaving with biotic combos and charging with the shotgun.

Let me know when you manage to accomplish a "deathless insanity playthrough" with a Vanguard.

Reave will not save you. You are going to die, most likely a lot, and spending tons of time stripping enemy defenses before CQC totally defeats the purpose of the Vanguard anyways.

Reave is a good ability and it's my bonus talent too, but it's not a game-breaker on a Vanguard. Charge is one for us, and we should be utilizing it as much as possible. Our strategy really doesn't involve sitting back and spamming Reave; we're most effective as an "in-your-face" type of character. Use your allies to lower defenses when needed.

We also have to remember that defenses often work in our favour. If an enemy has protection, they will be staggered when we Charge them (as opposed to if they don't - then they will be sent flying out of shotty range). This gives us the perfect opportunity to line up a close range blast that will likely decimate every bit of defense and most of their health. 

Anyways...Reave is useful, no doubt. However combat just isn't as satisfying when we're not playing the "high-risk high-reward" style that the Vanguard is famous for. I can't have fun that way.

[aeetos21]

Sabresandiego wrote...

I have not tested cryo ammo yet, wont be able to until tomorrow after my test, which I should be studying for right now. But here is my hypothetical perfect build for vanguard.

10 points in Heavy Charge
10 points in Champion
10 points in Inferno Ammo
10 points in Squad Cryo Ammo
10 points in Reave

The strategy with this build would be to play as a biotic/close combat hybrid. You would use area reave and squad biotic combos to weaken packs of enemies meanwhile scouting the battlefield for a smart place to charge. You would then charge in with your scimitar shotgun to clean house, your incendiary ammo and squad cryo would make sure that you wont be taking fire from multiple hostiles.

Could work, squad cryo helps immensely and heavy charge only augments the power of when you slam into enemies further.

My only argument is that area reave (though extremely powerful) is much better off being replaced by AP rounds - something that inferno ammo really can't compete with (and yes I've used inferno and reave before - the exact build so many people on here are foaming at the mouth for). Shotguns fire eight pellets, they're great for barriers and shields but are ****** poor against armor. Inferno ammo (really should start referring to it as incendiary but to us ME1 veterans...) does take down armor but it's not nearly as effective as AP. The only thing it does have over AP is the DOT that stop regen but as a player who has used both builds? It's much better to kill enemies faster before their regen even has a chance to kick in than to let it kick in and keep hitting them with incendiary ammo.

So, I went...

Incendiary: 2
Squad Cryo: 4 (obviously)
Shockwave: 4 (area effect)
Charge: 4 (heavy for time dilation)
Champion: 4 (100% par and ren meters, faster biotic CD)
AP ammo: 4 (extra 70% damage versus armor and health

Much better than the other build I had been using before:

Incendiary: 4
Shockwave: 2
Pull: 4 (Area Effect)
Charge: 4 (time dilation)
Champion: 4 (same as in other build listed)
Reave: 4 (area reave: damage against barrier and armor and leeches health from organic enemies - a DOT)

The first build let me charge more often and fight better at close range. The second build forced me to fight at long range and rely more on damage over time attacks, charging often ended up with me dead. That pissed me off more than anything, inability to fight like a VG, so that's why I definitely prefer the squad cryo/ap ammo build versus the other.

[PhatalFaZe]

People saying that long ranging is a waste of time must be talking about the first 10% of the game. Once you get decent combat upgrades almost every enemy in the game other than YMIR's and Collectors are killed effortlessly with the Assault Rifle and decent power usage.. To say that stripping enemies of health with powers and ranged guns, then jumping into the middle of a weakened mob and wreaking having with the shotgun is not actually playing as a Vanguard then I find that to be kind of laughable.



I mean if it's a case of just winning at any cost then why not just avoid combat altogether? You can probably run from 75% of the encounters in the game by using a charge on the farthest enemy in the room and then escaping. Hell I was able to warp all the way to the fight before the praetorian on Horizon.



It is just an issue of preference. There are opportunities to charge into mobs and suffer no damage, but there are times where I have to take my time and wait for those opportunities. Instead of just standing there doing nothing why don't I use AR fire, reave, pulls and etc and actually be effective rather than forcing a charge that might get me killed?



I don't know that there is a perfect Vanguard build. I know that a full Charge and Champion are probably the only requirements necessary for a great insanity build but beyond that there are a lot of options that depend on how you prefer to play. The fact that certain builds can get it done faster are irrelevant, the only thing that matters is winning engagements comfortably and there are options there.

[aeetos21]

Once you get decent upgrades you can kill anything in any manner pretty damn easily. SMG is basically an AR only it's not as effective at long range nor is it that accurate.

I do agree with you about charge as a means to not necessarily escape fights but end them quickly. There are several points in ME2 where enemies will continue to spawn for a a long time until they either a) run out or you close the gap and get to a point on the level's map that somehow "turns the valve off": the big collossus fight, miranda's mission - practically the entire damn map, on Grunt's recruitment mission - charge across that one big bridge and instead of having to fight a dozen blue suns you only have to fight two.

Hell, Mordin's recruitment mission, the very LAST thing you want to do is to try and kill all the vorcha and krogan when you're turning on the fan. Use charge and turn the fans on as early as possible.

But if later on in the game where you have the AR and fighting at long range works well for you then hell yeah, keep doing whatever it is you're doing.

Edit: Jack's recruitment mission, take the rightmost shield generator down first before enemies start spawning from the far right door. Run back, shoot the middle generator, and deploy your squad across the left bridge before the enemies starting rushing out form the original door you entered through. Take down the third generator (right in front of you) then use stuff like Miranda's warp/overload with Zaeed's inferno grenade or some other combo until the warden has all his defenses stripped. Then it becomes a matter of sniping with the heavy pistol.

Modifié par aeetos21, 25 février 2010 - 04:37 .

[padaE]

aeetos21 wrote...



Could work, squad cryo helps immensely and heavy charge only augments the power of when you slam into enemies further.

My only argument is that area reave (though extremely powerful) is much better off being replaced by AP rounds - something that inferno ammo really can't compete with (and yes I've used inferno and reave before - the exact build so many people on here are foaming at the mouth for). Shotguns fire eight pellets, they're great for barriers and shields but are ****** poor against armor. Inferno ammo (really should start referring to it as incendiary but to us ME1 veterans...) does take down armor but it's not nearly as effective as AP. The only thing it does have over AP is the DOT that stop regen but as a player who has used both builds? It's much better to kill enemies faster before their regen even has a chance to kick in than to let it kick in and keep hitting them with incendiary ammo.

So, I went...

Incendiary: 2
Squad Cryo: 4 (obviously)
Shockwave: 4 (area effect)
Charge: 4 (heavy for time dilation)
Champion: 4 (100% par and ren meters, faster biotic CD)
AP ammo: 4 (extra 70% damage versus armor and health

Much better than the other build I had been using before:

Incendiary: 4
Shockwave: 2
Pull: 4 (Area Effect)
Charge: 4 (time dilation)
Champion: 4 (same as in other build listed)
Reave: 4 (area reave: damage against barrier and armor and leeches health from organic enemies - a DOT)

The first build let me charge more often and fight better at close range. The second build forced me to fight at long range and rely more on damage over time attacks, charging often ended up with me dead. That pissed me off more than anything, inability to fight like a VG, so that's why I definitely prefer the squad cryo/ap ammo build versus the other.

.
My build is pretty much like yours, But I get also get pull instead of 10 points in shockwave

[Iz Stoik zI]

aeetos21 wrote...


My only argument is that area reave (though extremely powerful) is much better off being replaced by AP rounds - something that inferno ammo really can't compete with (and yes I've used inferno and reave before - the exact build so many people on here are foaming at the mouth for). Shotguns fire eight pellets, they're great for barriers and shields but are ****** poor against armor. Inferno ammo (really should start referring to it as incendiary but to us ME1 veterans...) does take down armor but it's not nearly as effective as AP. The only thing it does have over AP is the DOT that stop regen but as a player who has used both builds? It's much better to kill enemies faster before their regen even has a chance to kick in than to let it kick in and keep hitting them with incendiary ammo.

AP ammo only grants a 10% damage boost over Inferno which is completely negligible on any difficulty. Since the DoT damage from Inferno ammo is dealt instantly to Shields, Armor, and Barriers, Inferno ammo gives a 60% damage boost against Armor.

What sets it apart and makes it better for a Vanguard is the panic effect. If you charge into a group of organics and fire off Inferno rounds, most of them will stand around flailing their arms for a few seconds while the damage takes it's toll. This is invaluable to our general survival. The extra 10% damage from AP rounds is NOT WORTH passing over the panic effect from Inferno rounds -- this effect will save you many, many times.

AP ammo is inferior to Inferno ammo on a Vanguard, that's all there is to it.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 25 février 2010 - 04:45 .

[aeetos21]

I tried pull but I found that shockwave works better when you're dealing with husks. Sometimes I do wish I had pull, like the grunt recruitment mission on that garbage planet? However as soon as I saw that shockwave can still reach the other side of those enormous chasms and throw the blue suns off ledges, I didn't miss pull so much.