2583 réponses à ce sujet

[padaE]

aeetos21 wrote...

I tried pull but I found that shockwave works better when you're dealing with husks. Sometimes I do wish I had pull, like the grunt recruitment mission on that garbage planet? However as soon as I saw that shockwave can still reach the other side of those enormous chasms and throw the blue suns off ledges, I didn't miss pull so much.

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I keep shockwave for the husks too but I think you don't need 10 points on it. I prefer both.
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But that's preference. 

[Iz Stoik zI]

aeetos21 wrote...

I tried pull but I found that shockwave works better when you're dealing with husks. Sometimes I do wish I had pull, like the grunt recruitment mission on that garbage planet? However as soon as I saw that shockwave can still reach the other side of those enormous chasms and throw the blue suns off ledges, I didn't miss pull so much.

A lower rank Shockwave is arguably more useful against Husks than a low ranked Pull. However I think that Area Pull is better than Heavy/Improved Shockwave for dealing with larger groups since it has a shorter recharge time.

My personal opinion of course.

[Sabresandiego]

aaeetos, AP ammo does 1.7 damage and inferno does 1.6 damage. Thats like an 8% difference between the two in total damage. Inferno damage is applied to armor instantly just like AP ammo. The difference is really only with health, which AP ammo kills quite a bit faster because it is instant damage instead of over time like the incendiary. The awesome thing about incendiary is that your enemy cant shoot back at you because hes on fire and panicked.



AP ammo is a good choice, and whether its better than incendiary is very arguable. I personally used to like AP ammo better than incendiary but now I like incendiary better (I use scimitar). The deal breaker is that incendiary allows you to not only get reave, but is a pre-requisite for cryo ammo. Inferno ammo + Reave + Cheaper Cryo is better than AP ammo with 3 points wasted in incendiary and no reave IMO.

[aeetos21]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

AP ammo only grants a 10% damage boost over Inferno which is completely negligible on any difficulty. Since the DoT damage from Inferno ammo is dealt instantly to Shields, Armor, and Barriers, Inferno ammo gives a 60% damage boost against Armor.

What sets it apart and makes it better for a Vanguard is the panic effect. If you charge into a group of organics and fire off Inferno rounds, most of them will stand around flailing their arms for a few seconds while the damage takes it's toll. This is invaluable to our general survival. The extra 10% damage from AP rounds is NOT WORTH passing over the panic effect from Inferno rounds -- this effect will save you many, many times.

AP ammo is inferior to Inferno ammo on a Vanguard, that's all there is to it.

Inferno causes 60% fire damage (damage to armor) over three seconds, AP is instant and if you plan on charging enemies you want something that will take them down quickly so you can focus on any non-frozen enemies nearby or line up to charge an enemy that your squad froze while you were dealing with the enemy you just killed.

As for the panic effect? Squad cryo means your squad is freezing targets this whole time. Add in the melee combo with the AP rounds (I know that was discussed somewhere on this thread) and you can easily "stunlock" two enemies to death in seconds.

[Iz Stoik zI]

Sabresandiego wrote...

aaeetos, AP ammo does 1.7 damage and inferno does 1.6 damage. Thats like an 8% difference between the two in total damage. Inferno damage is applied to armor instantly just like AP ammo. The difference is really only with health, which AP ammo kills quite a bit faster because it is instant damage instead of over time like the incendiary. The awesome thing about incendiary is that your enemy cant shoot back at you because hes on fire and panicked.

AP ammo is a good choice, and whether its better than incendiary is very arguable. I personally used to like AP ammo better than incendiary but now I like incendiary better (I use scimitar). The deal breaker is that incendiary allows you to not only get reave, but is a pre-requisite for cryo ammo. Inferno ammo + Reave + Cheaper Cryo is better than AP ammo with 3 points wasted in incendiary and no reave IMO.

Agreed completely.

AP ammo isn't a terrible choice, but it's just not an ideal bonus power to take. Inferno does just about as well in terms of damage and has a neat panic effect to boot, and the points we spend to unlock Cryo Ammo won't be wasted like they would if AP was our primary ammo type. 

With that setup we can ideally take Reave or Barrier as our bonus ability, even if they won't see much use. I really don't think that the Vanguard even needs a bonus ability, but having a fast-recharging biotic attack can come in handy once in a while -- especially against YMIR mechs you're trying to gun down.

[Ackillez]

Sabresandiego wrote...

I have not tested cryo ammo yet, wont be able to until tomorrow after my test, which I should be studying for right now. But here is my hypothetical perfect build for vanguard.

10 points in Heavy Charge
10 points in Champion
10 points in Inferno Ammo
10 points in Squad Cryo Ammo
10 points in Reave

The strategy with this build would be to play as a biotic/close combat hybrid. You would use area reave and squad biotic combos to weaken packs of enemies meanwhile scouting the battlefield for a smart place to charge. You would then charge in with your scimitar shotgun to clean house, your incendiary ammo and squad cryo would make sure that you wont be taking fire from multiple hostiles.

I finished an insanity run with that excact Vanguard build, and it works like a charm. Miranda becomes an even better squadmate when you get cryo 4 (Ivl 20 for me). I picked AR as bonus weapon and ended up with decent ranged capabilities (AR fire + area reave spam). Reave is an excellent power against eclipse sisters, collectors and blood pack enemies. It has its uses against most mechs (stripping armour) and all organics as well.

It's a shame pull needs shockwave 2 to unlock, otherwise it might be a fun power to train, but it can't be maxed if you want squad cryo and inferno ammo so it's a no-go unfortunately.

[aeetos21]

There is one fight where I will take fire damage over AP and that is the Jedore fight with the YMIR and the krogan. However I don't use incendiary rounds, I use a flamethrower. Other than that, my first playthrough on ME was with a VG using primarily incendiary rounds. The following two playthroughs were again with incendiary (later inferno once evolved) with Fortification (ineffective bonus power) and then replaced by Area Reave which worked well at range.

*Edit: 75% of the time it was like gears of war, a shooter. I wanted to play at close range and the build I listed does just that.

Modifié par aeetos21, 25 février 2010 - 05:03 .

[Iz Stoik zI]

aeetos21 wrote...


Inferno causes 60% fire damage (damage to armor) over three seconds, AP is instant and if you plan on charging enemies you want something that will take them down quickly so you can focus on any non-frozen enemies nearby or line up to charge an enemy that your squad froze while you were dealing with the enemy you just killed.

As for the panic effect? Squad cryo means your squad is freezing targets this whole time. Add in the melee combo with the AP rounds (I know that was discussed somewhere on this thread) and you can easily "stunlock" two enemies to death in seconds.

No, it doesn't work that way.

It has been confirmed by the devs that the damage from DoTs is applied INSTANTLY to armor, shields, and biotic barriers. When it comes to health if an organic is hit by Inferno rounds they're basically dead, although not right away. They'll stand there in panic mode and a single melee is usually enough to finish them off.

As for the squad cryo effect, it's too unreliable to rely on extensively. Sometimes it doesn't work, or your squad can't hit the necessary enemies, or someone like Garrus will switch to AP ammo and screw up your plan. Inferno panic is a safety net that saves a Vanguard's life countless times.

And on another note, if we take AP ammo then we are forced to waste 3 points in Incendiary ammo to unlock Cryo ammo. That's a definite weakness right there.

The 10% damage is just not worth passing up on survivability -- and 3 squad points. Sorry.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 25 février 2010 - 05:04 .

[Ackillez]

aeetos21 wrote...

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

AP ammo only grants a 10% damage boost over Inferno which is completely negligible on any difficulty. Since the DoT damage from Inferno ammo is dealt instantly to Shields, Armor, and Barriers, Inferno ammo gives a 60% damage boost against Armor.

What sets it apart and makes it better for a Vanguard is the panic effect. If you charge into a group of organics and fire off Inferno rounds, most of them will stand around flailing their arms for a few seconds while the damage takes it's toll. This is invaluable to our general survival. The extra 10% damage from AP rounds is NOT WORTH passing over the panic effect from Inferno rounds -- this effect will save you many, many times.

AP ammo is inferior to Inferno ammo on a Vanguard, that's all there is to it.

Inferno causes 60% fire damage (damage to armor) over three seconds, AP is instant and if you plan on charging enemies you want something that will take them down quickly so you can focus on any non-frozen enemies nearby or line up to charge an enemy that your squad froze while you were dealing with the enemy you just killed.

As for the panic effect? Squad cryo means your squad is freezing targets this whole time. Add in the melee combo with the AP rounds (I know that was discussed somewhere on this thread) and you can easily "stunlock" two enemies to death in seconds.

You can't have seriously tried using inferno. The damage vs armour is instant (only over time when you're shooting unprotected enemies) and organics within a 3m radius will burn and scream when you fire off a shotgun round at their buddy. You don't need to take them down as quickly when they're not shooting at you, and in any case it's only in very rare situations that AP instead of inferno will mean you need to shoot one less shot.

[aeetos21]

A waste of squad points? What are you going to use 3 points on instead?

Cryo rounds - maxed
SW - maxed
Charge - maxed
Combat mastery - maxed
AP ammo - maxed

3 in incendiary ammo with the other 10 in squad cryp instead of 3 potentially in pull or a pull/shockwave combo? Your perogative. Missing the waste in squad points.

No, usually I'm not shooting at them to begin with - the frozen enemy I charged is already dead, not burning or on fire. Reave is effective as CC but with frozen enemies, that usually isn't a problem - and yes they do freeze.

Hey, I've tried all these builds and in my opinion the one I listed works best. Arguing over forums won't resolve anything at all. Only time and and experimenting with new builds will, probably backed up with video clips on youtube.

Edit* As for me not knowing what inferno ammo is. I think this is the build you're all referring to:

Modifié par aeetos21, 25 février 2010 - 05:22 .

[Sabresandiego]

Correct me if im wrong but doesnt Shephard get 52 points total? If thats the case then you cant max 5 abilities if cryo is one of them and you dont max incendiary, since cryo has a prereq of 3 points in incendiary. That would add to 53 points.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2010 - 05:30 .

[aeetos21]

fair enough, time to load the other build and you're right - i probably missed something

[Sabresandiego]

Also, I just want to clarify that inferno ammo does instant damage to armor. The only thing it does damage over 3 seconds to is health, so only once an enemy is down to its health bar does AP ammo kill significantly faster. This however is offset by a few key factors



1. Incendiary sets the enemy on fire so he doesnt shoot back



2. The fire can spread to others around him



3. Squad cryo is good crowd control, squad cryo and inferno together is even better crowd control



4. Shotguns are not a continuous damage weapon, they do burst damage. This means that for AP ammo to outshine inferno ammo it has to result in a kill in 1 less shot than inferno ammo. This isnt that often when you are talking an 8% difference in damage, and the crowd control from the inferno makes up for that rare occassion when an enemy does require an extra shot.

[aeetos21]

This is the squad cryo build with AP ammo:





Reave can be swapped for AP ammo, I think it's less effective but... Shockwave and pull, you can't evolve both - you get 3 tiers with one and 1 tier with the other or 2 and 2 or something other weird combination



so yes you do lose 1 squad point, how much of a factor is that to you is your call

[sinosleep]

People seriously need to start reading before replying. How on earth are we 44 pages into this thread and there are still people saying that incendiary ammo doesn't do instant damage? I mean, seriously now, this is not something new. The only time incendiary ammo does DOT damage is on health, at which point IT DOES NOT MATTER. This is ridiculous.

[Iz Stoik zI]

10 Inferno Ammo
10 Squad Cryo Ammo
10 Heavy Charge
10 Champion
10 Area Reave
1 Shockwave

I believe this is the build I beat the game with last time. I can't remember if I had a spare point to make it 52 but there wasn't anything to spend it on anyways.

If I took AP Ammo instead of Reave, it would probably look like:

3 Incendiary Ammo
10 Squad Cryo Ammo
10 Heavy Charge
10 Champion
10 AP Ammo
6 Shockwave (or 3 Shockwave 3 pull, or whatever)
1 Pull

With this setup, I am only able to max out 4 abilities instead of 5 and I have 1 squad point to spare. I miss out on Inferno ammo's panic, I'm stuck with 1 unassigned squad point, and I potentially miss out on Heavy Shockwave/Area Reave, immediately making battles with Husks a little bit more annoying.

It's not a gimped build, but it's just not as effective overall. Taking 10% extra damage is not worth losing out on the other goodies.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 25 février 2010 - 05:49 .

[aeetos21]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Also, I just want to clarify that inferno ammo does instant damage to armor. The only thing it does damage over 3 seconds to is health, so only once an enemy is down to its health bar does AP ammo kill significantly faster. This however is offset by a few key factors

1. Incendiary sets the enemy on fire so he doesnt shoot back

2. The fire can spread to others around him

3. Squad cryo is good crowd control, squad cryo and inferno together is even better crowd control

4. Shotguns are not a continuous damage weapon, they do burst damage. This means that for AP ammo to outshine inferno ammo it has to result in a kill in 1 less shot than inferno ammo. This isnt that often when you are talking an 8% difference in damage, and the crowd control from the inferno makes up for that rare occassion when an enemy does require an extra shot.

I misspoke earlier about incendiary not being instant effect on armor, I double checked mass wiki and like an idiot took their word over the hardcore fans of this forum. But yes, that is an inferno ammo/area reave build I uploaded onto the thread and if you'd like to know when I took that well on my album it says I uploaded it thirteen days ago so yes I have been trying all of these builds and I stand by the squad cryo AP ammo one.

Yes when I transitioned from inferno rounds to squad cryo it was wierd not seeing enemies flail around and have sudden health regen. But that was quickly replaced when I saw that (vorcha for example) as soon as you strip the armor and they get hit again by a cryo round then forget regen, they freeze solid. A few shots or a charge later and that's it, game over. Same goes with krogan or any other enemy really. The only downside is you can't seem to pull frozen enemies - shockwave still works because it does do direct damage.

Anyway, normally I'd have Miranda and Zaeed or Mordin with me. That's two armor breaking attacks mapped to my bar (warp and incinerate/inferno grenade). Shotgun is weak against armor but effective against barrier and shield (eight pellets) so I designed the build and team around busting armor. Reave is very powerful (I said that repeatedly) and inferno rounds do make enemies flail around for three seconds.

But until some comparison videos are posted on youtube or until some others start experimenting with these different builds so they can see firsthand nothing will be accomplished. Based on my playstyle of charging and eliminating enemies up close I found that the area reave build isn't more preferable to the AP build.

[padaE]

3 Incendiary Ammo

10 Squad Cryo Ammo

10 Heavy Charge

10 Champion

10 AP Ammo

6 Shockwave (or 3 Shockwave 3 pull, or whatever)

1 Pull

.

This is pretty much the best Vanguard build.

[Iz Stoik zI]

padaE wrote...

.
This is pretty much the best Vanguard build.

After this one, possibly:

10 Inferno Ammo
10 Squad Cryo
10 Heavy Charge
10 Champion
10 Area Reave/Improved Shockwave
1 Shockwave/Pull

In my opinion, of course. The panic is too important to pass up on Insanity and I cannot stress this enough. You can spend every single squad point wherever you want to, and your survivability is noticeably higher at no extra cost.

The Vanguard comes with everything it needs already installed. We have no need at all for a bonus power, and even less so for a bonus ammo power. Reave was my choice, but someone could easily get away with spending no points here and simply pumping them all into baseline Vanguard skills.

AP ammo simply is not good enough to warrant a choice as a bonus power on a Vanguard. Inferno gets basically the same job done at less risk, so passing up AP for Inferno is a win/win situation no matter how you look at it.

[padaE]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

padaE wrote...

.
This is pretty much the best Vanguard build.

After this one, possibly:

10 Inferno Ammo
10 Squad Cryo
10 Heavy Charge
10 Champion
10 Area Reave/Improved Shockwave
1 Shockwave/Pull

In my opinion, of course. The panic is too important to pass up on Insanity and I cannot stress this enough. You can spend every single squad point wherever you want to, and your survivability is noticeably higher at no extra cost.

The Vanguard comes with everything it needs already installed. We have no need at all for a bonus power, and even less so for a bonus ammo power. Reave was my choice, but someone could easily get away with spending no points here and simply pumping them all into baseline Vanguard skills.

AP ammo simply is not good enough to warrant a choice as a bonus power on a Vanguard. Inferno gets basically the same job done at less risk, so passing up AP for Inferno is a win/win situation no matter how you look at it.

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I can't see the big deal about setting enemys on fire. Ok, they panic and they don't shoot you but having enemys shooting at me at close range was never my problem. I use the Eviscerator shotgun and it's one shoot kill agains most enemys... there was never a time, at least I can remember, that I thought: wow, if this enemy was on fire he wouldn't have killed me (of course, in close range).
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I think having Inferno Ammo over AP ammo only makes sense if you are using a Scimitar. But then, I don't think it's the best shotgun. 

[sinosleep]

I just did some testing on Mordin's loyalty mission on some rachni. With the scimitar and inferno ammo it took 6 shots or 5 shots and a melee to kill it. With AP ammo it took 5 shots, or 4 shots and a melee. I then took the EVI and did the same test. With inferno ammo it took 3 shots to kill it, with AP ammo it took 3 shots to kill it. I don't have a claymore file handy at that same area, but as I said earlier in this thread and can show on the collector mission, the claymore one shots drones with inferno ammo just like it one shots drones with ap ammo. So what have we learned? The damage boost is essentially meaningless and you lose out on CC in order to get it. Basically, AP ammo isn't worth putting any points into for any reason whatsoever.

Vids will be posted to youtube shortly.

p.s. Dude, it's not about the guy you are one shotting being set on fire, that isn't the point. The point is, if you charge a group of 2 or 3, and you one shot one of them with ap ammo, the other 2 will still be shooting you. PERIOD. That's a fact of life. If you have inferno ammo on the other hand, you still one shot the guy, but the other 2 will now be on fire and not shooting you. How can you not see that that's a clear advantage? 

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 février 2010 - 06:29 .

[_Dannok1234]

Replying to every single post that contains pure nonsense here at this point would take way too long so I'll repeat it yet again for those that haven't bothered to read this thread or other threads when it comes to AP ammo and what 10 points actually do for you.



You can easily test this yourself so you do not have to take my word for it.

At level 30, fully upgraded Eviscerator shotgun, on insanity. A normal mob shot in the chest without ammo will have a tiny amount of health left which will go away with one melee. The same mob with AP ammo will have slightly less health left, but you will still have to perform a melee attack to kill it the fastest. If you shoot the same mob in the head, it will die regardless of what ammo you are using. Congratulations you have spent 10 points into a skill that does not increase the speed you kill most of the enemies in the game.



Now if you try the same with Elites you will find that this happens. Evi will need 2 shots and 4 melee attacks if you use no ammo at all, these melee attacks are done in between shots and do not slow you down. If you use AP ammo you can now kill the enemy with 2 shots and 3 melee attacks, in other words 10 points in AP ammo will save you the oh so time consuming task of performing a single melee attack while your weapon still can't fire. Good choice.



Now let's sum that up just to make sure everyone gets it. AP ammo will do a meaningless 10% more damage to armor, it will do meaningless more damage to health, which will at most save you 1 melee attack, which you will have time to do before you shoot again anyway. You lose out on the panic effect against enemies if you are fighting organics, something that is pure gold to have when you charge into groups of enemies. Against synthetics you will lose out on the stun effect and extra shield killing ability of Disruption ammo.



Reave, Dominate and 1 point into barrier on the other as bonus skills (not that you need one). Have situations where they will not be detrimental to your Vanguard. There are areas in the game where you cannot charge and in these few areas one of those skills would be of use. Using them in that manner would mean that you would not use them instead of charge, but only when you cannot. I personally find other situations when I find them useful, but quite frankly thats not needed here.



So one last recap, Dominate, Reave, Barrier, will not hurt your overall performance as a vanguard. AP ammo will. The end.

[Iz Stoik zI]

padaE wrote...

I can't see the big deal about setting enemys on fire. Ok, they panic and they don't shoot you but having enemys shooting at me at close range was never my problem. I use the Eviscerator shotgun and it's one shoot kill agains most enemys... there was never a time, at least I can remember, that I thought: wow, if this enemy was on fire he wouldn't have killed me (of course, in close range).
.
I think having Inferno Ammo over AP ammo only makes sense if you are using a Scimitar. But then, I don't think it's the best shotgun. 

I use the Eviscerator shotgun too, but that doesn't change the fact that the Inferno explosion effect is a great form of crowd control when charging into groups of two or more. I'd say that Tungsten rounds are somewhat better one-on-one, but combat in that situation as a Vanguard is ridiculously easy no matter what ammo type you use.

When charging into dangerous situations, having multiple enemies flailing around on fire is a life saver. It gives you enough time to kill your original target and then either kill another, charge to re-gen shields, or run to a safe cover spot before your enemies calm down.

It's invaluable in many situations. A 10% damage boost isn't a large enough increase to justify passing up Inferno ammo's utility and multiple squad points.

[aeetos21]

claymore has a long reload time (well not long but not fast either for a VG). i prefer the scimitar's constant damage to the one shot kill potential of that beast



what programs are you using to create the vids? i'm still in dinosaur age with fraps and windows movie maker?

[_Dannok1234]

Now something totally different which should make any Claymore user very happy.

From Athenau in the shotgun thread:

"As promised, I timed the reload trick. Results varied but holding the mouse down I recorded 73-77 frames per shot (1.46-1.54 seconds).

I wasn't able to perform the trick without holding the mouse button down."



So there you have it, this means that against elite and boss enemies the Claymore is the king of shotguns, followed closely by the Scimitar then the Evi. Against multiple normal enemies it's the Evi that reigns supreme with 3 enemies dead in 2.5 seconds followed by Claymore and Scimitar at 3 seconds.