2583 réponses à ce sujet

[aeetos21]

Am I the only one here that isn't using the evi or the claymore?

[padaE]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

padaE wrote...

I can't see the big deal about setting enemys on fire. Ok, they panic and they don't shoot you but having enemys shooting at me at close range was never my problem. I use the Eviscerator shotgun and it's one shoot kill agains most enemys... there was never a time, at least I can remember, that I thought: wow, if this enemy was on fire he wouldn't have killed me (of course, in close range).
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I think having Inferno Ammo over AP ammo only makes sense if you are using a Scimitar. But then, I don't think it's the best shotgun. 

I use the Eviscerator shotgun too, but that doesn't change the fact that the Inferno explosion effect is a great form of crowd control when charging into groups of two or more. I'd say that Tungsten rounds are somewhat better one-on-one, but combat in that situation as a Vanguard is ridiculously easy no matter what ammo type you use.

When charging into dangerous situations, having multiple enemies flailing around on fire is a life saver. It gives you enough time to kill your original target and then either kill another, charge to re-gen shields, or run to a safe cover spot before your enemies calm down.

It's invaluable in many situations. A 10% damage boost isn't a large enough increase to justify passing up Inferno ammo's utility and multiple squad points.

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What you say make perfect sense to me but I guess it just doesn't fit in my play style. I don't see the need of enemys on fire close to me. 
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So, it doesn't matter how small is the difference between AP ammo's damage and Incendiary ammo's damage. It's worth to me. 

[padaE]

aeetos21 wrote...

Am I the only one here that isn't using the evi or the claymore?

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there are people who use the Scimitar

[aeetos21]

I used the claymore for a while but I never learned the 2 shot trick so I eventually went back to the scimitar. The evi seems better all around (in terms of shotguns with multiple shots per clip) but I still prefered the scimitar's 5 roudns to the evi's 3.

[sinosleep]

sinosleep wrote...

I just did some testing on Mordin's loyalty mission on some rachni. With the scimitar and inferno ammo it took 6 shots or 5 shots and a melee to kill it. With AP ammo it took 5 shots, or 4 shots and a melee. I then took the EVI and did the same test. With inferno ammo it took 3 shots to kill it, with AP ammo it took 3 shots to kill it. I don't have a claymore file handy at that same area, but as I said earlier in this thread and can show on the collector mission, the claymore one shots drones with inferno ammo just like it one shots drones with ap ammo. So what have we learned? The damage boost is essentially meaningless and you lose out on CC in order to get it. Basically, AP ammo isn't worth putting any points into for any reason whatsoever.

Vids will be posted to youtube shortly.

p.s. Dude, it's not about the guy you are one shotting being set on fire, that isn't the point. The point is, if you charge a group of 2 or 3, and you one shot one of them with ap ammo, the other 2 will still be shooting you. PERIOD. That's a fact of life. If you have inferno ammo on the other hand, you still one shot the guy, but the other 2 will now be on fire and not shooting you. How can you not see that that's a clear advantage? 

Did you guys miss this? How can you see that and say the damage is worth it? On the evi, there isn't even any difference at all. On the claymore there is no difference at all. On the scimitar it's ONE shot, less than half a second difference.

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 février 2010 - 06:45 .

[_Dannok1234]

Please people. Go back to page 44 at the very least, read Sinosleep's post and mine, just please do it.

Dont' get me wrong, I know you can complete the game just fine using AP ammo, that doesn't make it useful. I'm sure you can complete the game without using any ammo at all as well, but that doesn't make it optimal either.



You can prefer one thing over another, but that also does not make something more useful and less wasteful. I haven't seen a solid argument yet that will refute the things I and others stated time and time again. It's not like I'm being rude or insulting or even arrogant really, just stating facts. So why do you keep ignoring the posts about this, is it because you simply can't refute it? I'd really be interested in knowing.

[_Dannok1234]

Ps Sinosleep, if you had done a melee between each hit with the scimitar, you would not see a difference at all.

[aeetos21]

So no real dif between scim and evi? Thought as much, read your comment but missed the ps. I went with AP because I thought that inferno ammo was a full three second dot on the armor. I still hold that squad cryo works well and that reave isn't the answer to everything, but if I don't need to put points in an armor-breaking ability because VG already has one that works just as fast? Then hell yes it's stupid to put points into a bonus talent like AP whose only real benefit then is 70% on health.

I'm not the type of player that will refuse to change their play style if somebody else comes along and shows me something better. I changed when I found that squad cryo ammo helps a lot in CC'ing enemies and I'll change again if AP ammo is replacaeable by inferno ammo. And I'll probably change again sometime else down the road when something else comes along.

Change is good.

Ps. It might take me a while to catch on but I do, eventually. So thanks for the "convincing."

Modifié par aeetos21, 25 février 2010 - 06:56 .

[Iz Stoik zI]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Please people. Go back to page 44 at the very least, read Sinosleep's post and mine, just please do it.

Ouch... 

But I agree with everything you two said. I've been trying to get that point across for a couple of pages now and it just wasn't getting through. The argument about whether Inferno rounds apply their damage immediately or over time to armor was somewhat frustrating since it's been discussed a few times throughout this thread.

Armor Piercing ammo is passable, but a Vanguard is much more effective with Inferno ammo -- especially on Insanity. That's just the way it works.

Edit: I don't want to try and tell people how to play, that's up to the discretion of the player. I'm simply stating what works best. Play however you want to.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 25 février 2010 - 06:59 .

[aeetos21]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Ps Sinosleep, if you had done a melee between each hit with the scimitar, you would not see a difference at all.

melee is to help stunlock the enemy though, it's why you grab the 25% melee shoulders and the 50% melee heavy boneweave upgrades

are you saying you shouldn't melee?

[sinosleep]

And here is the video. It's not done processing so the quality is garbage and you can't tell what ammo I'm using but here's the order. 1st is scim and inferno, 2nd is scim and ap, 3rd is evi and ap, 4th is evi and inferno. When it's done processing you'll be able to see the icons. And yeah, I killed more than one rachni but getting the video up and viewable was my priority so I cut it all the way down to one rachni per ammo type. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 février 2010 - 07:05 .

[aeetos21]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

Ouch... 

But I agree with everything you two said. I've been trying to get that point across for a couple of pages now and it just wasn't getting through. The argument about whether Inferno rounds apply their damage immediately or over time to armor was somewhat frustrating since it's been discussed a few times throughout this thread.

Armor Piercing ammo is passable, but a Vanguard is much more effective with Inferno ammo -- especially on Insanity. That's just the way it works.

Edit: I don't want to try and tell people how to play, that's up to the discretion of the player. I'm simply stating what works best. Play however you want to.

Yes, yes give aeetos a big f*cking stone age wheel next to his name and tell him to go crush rocks until a little lightbulb clicks on over his head. Message received

In terms of playstyle? Whatever is most effective is what I prefer. So if I can use inferno ammo for myself and squad cryo for the two squadmates and achieve roughly the same results than if I spent them in in the bonus talent AP then hell yes I'll adapt.

Reave is effective at breaking down armor, barrier, leeching life and CC'ing organic enemies briefly - pretty sure warp had the same effect on it as it had on pull but given how tonight's gone I'm probably wrong about that.

[_Dannok1234]

Aeetos21 not exactly sure how you managed to read into my post that I'm against meleeing.

I'm strong believer in using melee after every shot with the scimitar as it does not slow you down but in fact kills enemies a bit faster. I'm just saying a Scimitar will kill an elite in the exact same number of attacks using no ammo, or ap, or inferno. 4 shots and 3 melee, those three melees coming in between each shot. (But this is nothing new, I've said so many many times in many different threads )



Iz stoik zI I noticed that you and others were trying to be the "Voice of Reason". Just that the last few pages was completely meaningless all in all if those that were arguing with you had read my posts just before all that started, as not a single fact of what I posted was refuted in any of them. So I saw it as a complete waste of time for everyone involved, which baffles and annoys me from time to time. Probably just the famous straw that broke the camels back. I'm used to coming into a thread that has wrong information or lack of knowledge, I post the facts and correct information, and most will carry on as nothing was posted at all.

[padaE]

I really don't get it. People keeps this mimimimi about how is not worth speding 10 points in AP ammo over and over again because the difference is to small and Incendiary Ammo is better for Vanguard, etc...

.

But AP ammo does more damage, period. As far as I know 70 > 60. Fact. How small is the practical difference doesn't matter. It is there.

.

There is no useful bonus skill for the Vanguard. Reave, Barrier, any one, they are 100% useless. Because there is no such thing in ME2 as an area that you can't charge.

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So, there is no reason not to pick AP ammo.

[_Dannok1234]

Aeetos21 you won't get roughly the same results, you will get better results.



Ps I devs posted you only get warp explosions with pull and singularity

[sinosleep]

Did you not read any of what I posted? Did you not watch the video? It makes no difference whatsoever and cost you free area crowd control.

I ****ing give up. If I can post a goddamned youtube vid of how useless AP ammo is and it makes no difference to you then there's no reason to bother posting. I'm wash my hands of this nonsense.

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 février 2010 - 07:15 .

[aeetos21]

Dannok, I wasn't sure what you were saying and I wanted to make sure where you were coming from before I jumped to anymore conclusions. That's all



Good video and the quality was fine, proves the whole AP > Inferno ammo is complete BS - and yeah I bought into that BS for a couple of weeks as well.



Evi appeared to kill the bugs a bit faster than the scim but I still prefer having the scim's extra two shots per clip.

[_Dannok1234]

padaE wrote...
I really don't get it. People keeps this mimimimi about how is not worth speding 10 points in AP ammo over and over again because the difference is to small and Incendiary Ammo is better for Vanguard, etc...
.But AP ammo does more damage, period. As far as I know 70 > 60. Fact. How small is the practical difference doesn't matter. It is there.
.There is no useful bonus skill for the Vanguard. Reave, Barrier, any one, they are 100% useless. Because there is no such thing in ME2 as an area that you can't charge.
.So, there is no reason not to pick AP ammo.

Really. There are no areas in ME2 where you cannot charge your enemy? Well done.
For 10 skill points into AP ammo, you will do 1 less melee if you use the Eviscerator, with the other two shotguns there is no difference as long as you are using melee attacks properly. 10 skill points for 1 less melee, no CC/stun ability.
Yes obviously you are right, it's clearly better.

I know I shouldn't have been so sarcastic, but it's become too much now really.

[aeetos21]

padaE wrote...

I really don't get it. People keeps this mimimimi about how is not worth speding 10 points in AP ammo over and over again because the difference is to small and Incendiary Ammo is better for Vanguard, etc...
.
But AP ammo does more damage, period. As far as I know 70 > 60. Fact. How small is the practical difference doesn't matter. It is there.
.
There is no useful bonus skill for the Vanguard. Reave, Barrier, any one, they are 100% useless. Because there is no such thing in ME2 as an area that you can't charge.
.
So, there is no reason not to pick AP ammo.

Likely scenario: as a VG I took sniper as a bonus weapon, I liked the standoff distance it provided against enemies like scions, praetorians, etc... AP adds ten percent more damage per hit but reave also does damage against armor. It probably won't make up for the difference made if you fired a full viper clip of +10% damage AP ammo but it isn't something to turn away from either. Reave/inferno combo may not be the absolute best but it comes pretty damn close and it opens other options up to you - like expanding on shockwave or pull.

Edit: I'm suddenly very happy I came on here tonight.

Modifié par aeetos21, 25 février 2010 - 07:22 .

[_Dannok1234]

Dannok1234 wrote...
Now something totally different which should make any Claymore user very happy.
From Athenau in the shotgun thread:
"As promised, I timed the reload trick. Results varied but holding the mouse down I recorded 73-77 frames per shot (1.46-1.54 seconds).
I wasn't able to perform the trick without holding the mouse button down."

So there you have it, this means that against elite and boss enemies the Claymore is the king of shotguns, followed closely by the Scimitar(0,3 slower) then the Evi(1 second slower). Against multiple normal enemies however it's the Evi that reigns supreme with 3 enemies dead in 2.5 seconds followed by Claymore and Scimitar both at 3 seconds.

(not aimed at you Aeetos21)

I'm just reposting this to have it up there. Also want to add, none of these weapons gain any benefit or shorter killing speed when using AP ammo over Inferno. Every shot with a Scimitar should be followed by a melee hit unless the shot kills your enemy. Every shot from the Evi should be followed by 2 melee hits unless the shot kills your enemy or the first melee does. This is how you get the fastest killing speed possible. AP ammo will not be any benefit what so ever. It's a total pointless waste of time that hurts you since you lose out on CC/stun you could have with Inferno etc etc etc.

padaE if you do not grasp this at this point, I'm done replying or trying to make you see the light.
However please stop posting your nonsense, please.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 25 février 2010 - 07:41 .

[Iz Stoik zI]

padaE wrote...

I really don't get it. People keeps this mimimimi about how is not worth speding 10 points in AP ammo over and over again because the difference is to small and Incendiary Ammo is better for Vanguard, etc...
.
But AP ammo does more damage, period. As far as I know 70 > 60. Fact. How small is the practical difference doesn't matter. It is there.
.
There is no useful bonus skill for the Vanguard. Reave, Barrier, any one, they are 100% useless. Because there is no such thing in ME2 as an area that you can't charge.
.
So, there is no reason not to pick AP ammo.

70 > 60 in terms of damage percentage, yes. But 0 unused squad points also > essentially 4 wasted squad points. AoE panic > Negligible single target damage increase.

This is really the main reason for taking Inferno rounds. You get all of your squad points exactly where you want them and if you place them correctly then every single one of them can be put to good use. You can spend some on a Bonus skill like Reave or Barrier (which actually have occasional uses), but we can easily get away with spending all of our points on baseline Vanguard abilities like Shockwave and Pull.

When you take Tungsten rounds, you are forced to waste 3 squad points in Incendiary Ammo to unlock Cryo Ammo. This means that you can only max out 4 skills instead of 5, and you'll have at least 1 point left over no matter what you do.

When you factor in the fact that the Inferno rounds have an AoE panic, losing that effect and multiple squad points IS NOT WORTH gaining 10% damage. The panic will save your life over and over again.

There is no reason to take AP ammo as a Vanguard. We have everything I need already, so the bonus power is meaningless. I took Reave to have a longer range defense stripping attack that I only use when **** really hits the fan, or when fighting against YMIRs. 90% of the time I just charge into groups of enemies and kill them easily -- and a big part of this is attributed to the fact that they can't fight back when they're burning.

I stay alive, they die.

[_Dannok1234]

aeetos21 wrote...

padaE wrote...

I really don't get it. People keeps this mimimimi about how is not worth speding 10 points in AP ammo over and over again because the difference is to small and Incendiary Ammo is better for Vanguard, etc...
.
But AP ammo does more damage, period. As far as I know 70 > 60. Fact. How small is the practical difference doesn't matter. It is there.
.
There is no useful bonus skill for the Vanguard. Reave, Barrier, any one, they are 100% useless. Because there is no such thing in ME2 as an area that you can't charge.
.
So, there is no reason not to pick AP ammo.

Likely scenario: as a VG I took sniper as a bonus weapon, I liked the standoff distance it provided against enemies like scions, praetorians, etc... AP adds ten percent more damage per hit but reave also does damage against armor. It probably won't make up for the difference made if you fired a full viper clip of +10% damage AP ammo but it isn't something to turn away from either. Reave/inferno combo may not be the absolute best but it comes pretty damn close and it opens other options up to you - like expanding on shockwave or pull.

You'd be wrong there, 10 points into Reave along with Inferno ammo would far out damage AP ammo in those scenarios.

[aeetos21]

I'm half tempted to see how disruptor ammo will work out, be nice to have something that strips shields besides Miranda's overload.

[aeetos21]

Dannok1234 wrote...

You'd be wrong there, 10 points into Reave along with Inferno ammo would far out damage AP ammo in those scenarios.

Again!? F*ck this ****, where the hell is the goddamned bonus power webpage. Not saying anything until I give them another once over.

[_Dannok1234]

Take Zaeed with you on missions that involve synthetics, using his squad ammo, will be better then any other ammo bonus you can use against them, it works like a charm, as you go through the shield faster and it also gives a health bonus against them, it's win win. Not to mention the stun, the weapon overheat etc.