2583 réponses à ce sujet

[Acero Azul]

Disrupter ammo is awesome

[Iz Stoik zI]

aeetos21 wrote...

I'm half tempted to see how disruptor ammo will work out, be nice to have something that strips shields besides Miranda's overload.

On a Vanguard?

Unless I'm mistaken, the only way that a Vanguard can have that kind of rounds is if you bring Zaeed along and train him up to Squad Disruptor ammo.

It could be worth it against YMIRs or mech-heavy levels, especially the "Secure Smuggled Cargo" mission I suppose. I rarely bring him along though, I'm pretty static when it comes to my squadmates -- Miranda and Garrus.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 25 février 2010 - 07:30 .

[_Dannok1234]

aeetos21 wrote...

Dannok1234 wrote...

You'd be wrong there, 10 points into Reave along with Inferno ammo would far out damage AP ammo in those scenarios.

Again!? F*ck this ****, where the hell is the goddamned bonus power webpage. Not saying anything until I give them another once over.

Remember that Reave does double damage to barriers and to Armor. As you can keep on firing while tossing it you basically boost your damage by about (a bitmore or less depending on heavy/area and biotic bonuses) 400 every 4 seconds. Say you use the Viper, base damage 81.9 10% of that is 8,19 (10 points in AP ammo well spent eh for 8 damage more). So you are doing 8,19 damage more per shot against armor with AP over inferno. That would mean you would have to do 48 or so shots before AP ammo catches up to one single Reave. No way in hell you would enter such a scenario, not to mention you would have been able to throw many reaves in that same time frame making it pointless to even try to catch up

[aeetos21]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

aeetos21 wrote...

I'm half tempted to see how disruptor ammo will work out, be nice to have something that strips shields besides Miranda's overload.

On a Vanguard?

Unless I'm mistaken, the only way that a Vanguard can have that kind of rounds is if you bring Zaeed along and train him up to Squad Disruptor ammo.

It could be worth it against YMIRs or mech-heavy levels, especially the "Secure Smuggled Cargo" mission I suppose. I'm not sure whether I'd rather have that over Inferno rounds though.

As a bonus power I meant. Here's my beef with other members using squad ammo powers. You guys probably know this already but they will have their own ammo powers override your own, even with squad power usage turned off. Again, I love squad cryo and I like having Zaeed with me because of his inferno grenade - levels with armored guys. And if his power is overriding my own...

[_Dannok1234]

Can't take disruptor as a bonus power without cheating as far as I'm aware. But I do really enjoy it against geth etc

[Iz Stoik zI]

aeetos21 wrote...

As a bonus power I meant. Here's my beef with other members using squad ammo powers. You guys probably know this already but they will have their own ammo powers override your own, even with squad power usage turned off. Again, I love squad cryo and I like having Zaeed with me because of his inferno grenade - levels with armored guys. And if his power is overriding my own...

Disruptor ammo can't be chosen as a bonus power, I'm sure of this. Warp, Shredder, and Armor Piercing are your choices, I believe.

And yeah I know about that. It's extremely frustrating trying to have your squad freeze stuff with Squad Cryo when Garrus keeps switching to AP ammo whenever a new fight starts. I think Bioware needs to patch this up, or at least give us another squad power usage option in the gameplay settings menu.

[aeetos21]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Remember that Reave does double damage to barriers and to Armor. As you can keep on firing while tossing it you basically boost your damage by about (a bitmore or less depending on heavy/area and biotic bonuses) 400 every 4 seconds. Say you use the Viper, base damage 81.9 10% of that is 8,19 (10 points in AP ammo well spent eh for 8 damage more). So you are doing 8,19 damage more per shot against armor with AP over inferno. That would mean you would have to do 48 or so shots before AP ammo catches up to one single Reave. No way in hell you would enter such a scenario, not to mention you would have been able to throw many reaves in that same time frame making it pointless to even try to catch up

Yup, definitely need to start reading back a bit into these threads before commenting. I knew about the double damage I just didn't know how it stacked up to the viper's +armor damage * +armor damage of inferno or ap ammo.

[aeetos21]

Hell with it then, reave is the definite game winner in terms of VG bonus powers. I tried fortification before and after that disaster I never gave barrier or GSB any real thought. But given champion's reduced CD time on biotic powers (which barrier is)...

The only other powers I'd consider taking in place of reave now would be inferno grenade (however since reave is also effective against armor that rules that out) or slam (but even I found reave to be more effective playing as a VG than that power).

Edit: maybe ED, looking at that one now.

Modifié par aeetos21, 25 février 2010 - 07:43 .

[_Dannok1234]

If you don't give your squad ammo abilities (wouldn't recommend for jacbo as his inferno is useful early on as squad), and take Cryo it can be good instead of using a bonus power since it has no cooldown to interfere with charge. For barrier I would not waste more then 1 point into and use it as a Oh crap button. There are times when your enemy will be on a ledge etc that you can't charge and an instant recharge of shield can make you kill em faster, or in the same scenario you could use reave.

Both of them would be used in similar situations even tho they are very different skills. Basically, if you fancy having Cryo ammo, it might be worth dumping 1 point into barrier just in case. For quicker killing speed on Praetorians(sp) reave is the winner. For every other thing charge+inferno wins.

With the biotic upgrade and champ barrier gets to be about 7 second cooldown I think. But as long as you use it to safe yourself in a station you cannot charge I think it can be useful. At least it won't gimp your char like AP ammo will (nor will reave for that matter)

Modifié par Dannok1234, 25 février 2010 - 07:50 .

[sinosleep]

I may have to upload another video, I just noticed something. If you watch the video you'll see on the first batch of inferno rounds I back out of melee range, I just redid it without backing out of melee range and it kills the rachni in FIVE shots just like the ap ammo does. So actually it makes no difference, melee or no melee, AP ammo is useless on vanguards.

[aeetos21]

reave with squad cryo and inferno ammo then, probably pick up the rest in shockwave. ED would be usfuly in breaking shields but so do shotguns and smgs and miranda's overload

barrier would be great as an oh **** button but when i'm charging it's either I know i'll come out the other side and handle whatever is there okay - that the charge is part of a greater strategy - or i'm so frustrated that not even a maxed out barrier from ME1 could save me (example:  "DIE TRIO OF HEAVY MECHS!")

Modifié par aeetos21, 25 février 2010 - 08:00 .

[Iz Stoik zI]

aeetos21 wrote...

reave with squad cryo and inferno ammo then, probably pick up the rest in shockwave. ED would be usfuly in breaking shields but so do shotguns and smgs and miranda's overload

barrier would be great as an oh **** button but when i'm charging it's either I know i'll come out the other side and handle whatever is there okay - that the charge is part of a greater strategy - or i'm so frustrated that not even a maxed out barrier from ME1 could save me (example:  "DIE TRIO OF HEAVY MECHS!")

I decided to max out my bonus power and get Area Reave last time, and my final point was placed in Shockwave. I chose Area Reave because I found it easier to deal with a group of unarmored Husks and Reave is great at stripping their defenses. Then I can follow up with Garrus' Concussive Blast or a simple rank 1 Shockwave to finish them off.

It boils down to preference. Like I said earlier, a Vanguard doesn't even need to spend a single point on it's bonus power if it doesn't want to. My build was:

10 Inferno Ammo
10 Squad Cryo Ammo
10 Heavy Charge
10 Champion
10 Area Reave
1 Shockwave

I caught a brief discussion about Area Pull earlier in this thread but I must have missed a key part of the conversation because I don't fully understand how a Vanguard could pick it up without passing over other essential skills. Can anyone elaborate on this?

[sinosleep]

You sacrifice squad cryo ammo for area pull. For me it was worth it because while squad cryo is powerful, it's not under your control. Some times they freeze targets I don't want them to or don't freeze targets I do want frozen. With area pull I know where and when it's going to be used, it has a ludicrously tiny cool down, and I find that it's highly under rated.

My build was

10 inferno ammo
0 cryo ammo
10 heavy charge
10 champion
3 shockwave
10 pull
6 barrier
3 points wasted

It was either waste 6 points in cryo which I would never use over inerno, or waste 6 points in barrier which I would never use either. The points are wasted regardless. If you wanted to be efficient you could max shockwave but I didn't bother just because anything shockwave can do area pull can do better.

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 février 2010 - 08:21 .

[DesolCobra]

I couldn't... to get Area Pull (abandon bonus skill) I would have to abandon something like cryo ammo. The only way to get it is to invoke the dominate bug twice to get 2 extra points lol (cheating).

[sinosleep]

Recut version of the AP ammo is useless on vanguards vid is up. Still processing, but you get the point. On a vanguard AP ammo makes no difference whatsoever in kill speed and results in a loss o invaluable area crowd control. Avoid AP ammo as a bonus talent at all costs.

[Iz Stoik zI]

sinosleep wrote...

Recut version of the AP ammo is useless on vanguards vid is up. Still processing, but you get the point. On a vanguard AP ammo makes no difference whatsoever in kill speed and results in a loss o invaluable area crowd control. Avoid AP ammo as a bonus talent at all costs.

Still well done, another great video to help potential Vanguards figure out how to play the class properly.

Your videos got me interested in the Vanguard again after a miserable first experience with them, and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to make them.

On another note, what's everyone's preferred heavy weapon on a Vanguard? I've been carrying the Avalanche around with me almost everywhere because I like the more defensive element to it. If enemies are grouped up too tightly to charge into safely, fire a few icy blasts and mop up the mess afterwards. I use the Collector Particle Beam for Praetorians and occasionally Scions and Harbinger barriers.

On another another note, I can't decide which is better: the Shurikan or the Tempest? The Shurikan seems to be more accurate over longer ranges but I'm just not sure.

[RamsenC]

Looks like after many pages of mostly nonsense I couldn't convince anyone against Reave as a bonus power. Oh well

[sinosleep]

RamsenC wrote...

Looks like after many pages of mostly nonsense I couldn't convince anyone against Reave as a bonus power. Oh well

But we DID manage to convince a couple of people that incendiary was superior to armor piercing! It's progress!

[Sabresandiego]

I'm glad you all came to a consensus about which ammo powers to get. Incendiary inferno with squad cryo seems like a no brainer since they synergize so well both in actual combat with dual crowd control, and in squad point spending.

The last debate which really remains is where to spend your last few skill points. Should it be in pull field which is really good, or a bonus skill like barrier or reave. Reave is easily the best skill in the game. You can beat the entire game on insanity+ by just reaving with your vanguard. It is insanely good and the only argument for not taking it is that it is not true to vanguard playstyle and some even argue that its cheating, yes its that good. The problem with pull field on your vanguard is that it requires an investment of 3 points into shockwave, which basically locks you out of maximizing a bonus skill. I dont like pull field on Shephard because it is not an instant cast, its a fire projectile. When you use pullfield from your squadmates (Jacob, Jack, Samara) it casts instantly. This is another argument in favor of reave.

10 points Heavy Charge
10 points Champion
10 points Inferno Ammo
10 points Squad Cryo
10 Points Reave

That is basically the best vanguard build you can get. You have an answer for everything, including situations which are just too dangerous to charge into. Reave and use squad biotics until it is safe to charge.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2010 - 09:19 .

[RamsenC]

I've already mentioned this, but you can use Samara for reave without wasting any points on it and it frees up your cooldown. You can also use Miranda for warp/overload, Mordin for incinerate, Tali for combat drone, etc.



You can't ignore the fact that you have squadmate powers at your disposal. I say get no bonus powers and if you had a spare point like I did put it in barrier so you can get an instant shield recovery when you can't charge, like most boss fights.

[Sabresandiego]

Ramsen, you keep claiming that Samara's Reave can replace Shephards reave and free up a cooldown but I find this to not be true at all. Reave on shepard is easily twice as good as reave on Samara. You can cast it twice as fast and it does more damage. As a vanguard you only need your cooldown for 2 abilities, charge and reave. You dont NEED to charge unless you have lost your shields and are in a dangerous position. Thats why you never cast reave in close combat, all cooldowns go to charge. Reave is only used when you are behind cover and safe from enemy attack. You can even just spam reave the entire time and win battles, its an insanely good skill. The reason having pull on shepard isnt important is that its not a main damage attack which needs to be spammed like reave. Pull is only used when reave has stripped enemy defenses, and is used to setup a warp explosion. It has a squad cooldown of about 5 seconds which synergizes perfectly with the reave cooldown on shepard. Reave on shepard and pull field on a squadmate is the most efficient setup.

[Vizzer1234]

One very important thing that you seem to have missed about Incendiary ammo, or have not explained completely, is that the DoT also does damage towards Shields AND Barriers, while AP ammo only does the 70% towards armor.
The way I see it, the process goes like this towards ARMORED enemies:

AP Ammo:
Shot - does weapon damage plus 70% against both armor and health, close by enemies not affected.

Incendiary Ammo:
Shot - does weapon damage plus 60% towards armor PLUS instant DoT, (which should mean that Incendiary ammo actually does MORE damage towards Armor than AP ammo) also if the armor is stripped down this enemy is dancing around, and close-by enemies aswell.

Towards shielded or enemies with barrier there is still an AoE effect with incendiary ammo and it does the DoT instantly aswell, while AP does absolutely nothing towards these protections.

I'm not completely sure about this but if it's true, the instant DoT is added to the 60% vs armor.

[RamsenC]

 

Sabresandiego wrote...

Ramsen, you keep claiming that Samara's Reave can replace Shephards reave and free up a cooldown but I find this to not be true at all. Reave on shepard is easily twice as good as reave on Samara. You can cast it twice as fast and it does more damage.

I'm pretty sure Reave does the same base damage either way. The only difference if your bonuses affect your reave and not Samara's, but the upside of not having it affect your cooldown outweighs this. On top of that Samara's reave does the job of stripping armor and barriers just fine.

 

Sabresandiego wrote...
You can even just spam reave the entire time and win battles, its an insanely good skill.

You can't spam reave on enemies with blue shields which are the vast majority of enemies in the game. When I know I wont be seeing much armor or barriers theres little point to bringing Samara.

 

Sabresandiego wrote...
The reason having pull on shepard isnt important is that its not a main damage attack which needs to be spammed like reave. Pull is only used when reave has stripped enemy defenses, and is used to setup a warp explosion.

Have to say it again, but Reave does not work on blue shields. Sounds like you should be switching to energy drain for most missions if your primary concern is defense stripping. Pull is useful for taking someone out of the battle before charging. If theres 4 enemies and one has no shield pull him. If you have someone with warp, explode him. Pull also recharges fast enough to take advantage of the disabled enemy.

 

It has a squad cooldown of about 5 seconds which synergizes perfectly with the reave cooldown on shepard. Reave on shepard and pull field on a squadmate is the most efficient setup.

The squad cooldown does not matter as much as your own. Are you really casting Reave+Pull combos every 5 seconds? If so do you only charge when theres no real enemy threat left? I make great use of Tali's combat drone and it has a 30 second cooldown. All that matters is that it's ready when I need it.

Modifié par RamsenC, 25 février 2010 - 09:53 .

[aeetos21]

Started a new playthrough, died once on FP but it was because I did something heroic like and we all know how those work out no matter how good your build is.



I'm not seeing too much difference right now at the lower levels but that's to be expected since I only have tier 2 of incendiary filled. I'm going to try and evolve squad cryo first and then worry about the rest. The biggest difference I see between pull and shockwave is how they are deployed.



One is where you usually take a half second extra to direct where you want the targets to go and the other is more point and shoot. Granted pull/warp combo works great (double biotic damage) and I used that with Miranda to get the tactician achievement but I still preferred SW after I compared the two.



Anyway, I'll probably just alternate between cryo and inferno until I can give the squad cryo ammo. Then I'll focus more on Shepard's own skills.



Oh, and I'm definitely one of the convincees who learned that AP ammo isn't the way to go with the VG.

[Sabresandiego]

My strategy with charge is that I only charge when I deem its safe. This means I am facing three or less enemies and am charging into a position where I can run behind cover if things get hairy. Charging around the map nonstop is cool in videos and stuff but in the game it will get you killed quite often.

I basically reave an enemy the second I see him, get behind cover and assess the situation while casting squad biotic combos. If I deem he is alone, or if the charge is safe I will go ahead and charge in right away. If I deem the charge to have a high risk of death, I will stay back behind cover and launch a wave of reave spam and biotic combos until I deem a charge is safe. You can argue that this isnt the way to play a vanguard, my argument is that I have almost no deaths in an insanity+ playthrough with my vanguard.

Also, charge can be used as a defensive ability as well. You can just reave spam until enemies close range on you. Once they are close, you switch to shotgun and charge spam. I personally use my vanguard as a biotic reave/charge hybrid. I dont spam reave all day, and I dont spam charge all day. I do both about equally. And I use devastating warp explosions to really clean out the battlefield.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2010 - 10:04 .