2583 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

Vizzer1234 wrote...

One very important thing that you seem to have missed about Incendiary ammo, or have not explained completely, is that the DoT also does damage towards Shields AND Barriers, while AP ammo only does the 70% towards armor.
The way I see it, the process goes like this towards ARMORED enemies:

AP Ammo:
Shot - does weapon damage plus 70% against both armor and health, close by enemies not affected.

Incendiary Ammo:
Shot - does weapon damage plus 60% towards armor PLUS instant DoT, (which should mean that Incendiary ammo actually does MORE damage towards Armor than AP ammo) also if the armor is stripped down this enemy is dancing around, and close-by enemies aswell.

Towards shielded or enemies with barrier there is still an AoE effect with incendiary ammo and it does the DoT instantly aswell, while AP does absolutely nothing towards these protections.

I'm not completely sure about this but if it's true, the instant DoT is added to the 60% vs armor.

That's not how it works Vizzer1234. Its like this

AP Ammo:
Shot - does weapon damage plus 70% instant damage against armor and health, close by enemies not affected.

Incendiary Ammo:
Shot - does weapon damage plus 60% towards armor in instant DoT damage. When used against health, it's an additional 60% damage a 3 second DoT. Another correction would be that enemies do NOT have to be stripped of defenses in order to be ignited. At 3:09 of this video I charge a fully shielded merc and ignite him. After I kill him I turn to my right to another fully shielded mech who is ignited. A fully shielded merc, who is ignited. I then kill him with ease. THAT is incendiary ammo's biggest advantage. You can crowd control guys without having paid any mind to them at all. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 février 2010 - 10:07 .

[RamsenC]

Double post accident

Modifié par RamsenC, 25 février 2010 - 10:07 .

[RamsenC]

Sabresandiego wrote...

My strategy with charge is that I only charge when I deem its safe. This means I am facing three or less enemies and am charging into a position where I can run behind cover if things get hairy. Charging around the map nonstop is cool in videos and stuff but in the game it will get you killed quite often.

I basically reave an enemy the second I see him, get behind cover and assess the situation while casting squad biotic combos. If I deem he is alone, or if the charge is safe I will go ahead and charge in right away. If I deem the charge to have a high risk of death, I will stay back behind cover and launch a wave of reave spam and biotic combos until I deem a charge is safe. You can argue that this isnt the way to play a vanguard, my argument is that I have almost no deaths in an insanity+ playthrough with my vanguard.

Also, charge can be used as a defensive ability as well. You can just reave spam until enemies close range on you. Once they are close, you switch to shotgun and charge spam. I personally use my vanguard as a biotic reave/charge hybrid. I dont spam reave all day, and I dont spam charge all day. I do both about equally. And I use devastating warp explosions to really clean out the battlefield.

As I mentioned before you can't Reave most enemies the second you see them. Blood Pack and collectors are not the majority of the game. In these cases Reave is not doing what you claim to do with it. I have to ask what you do in those situations.

I also rarely die, so thats no excuse

I know this makes me look like an ****, but you aren't playing vanguard right 

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

My strategy with charge is that I only charge when I deem its safe. This means I am facing three or less enemies and am charging into a position where I can run behind cover if things get hairy. Charging around the map nonstop is cool in videos and stuff but in the game it will get you killed quite often.

I basically reave an enemy the second I see him, get behind cover and assess the situation while casting squad biotic combos. If I deem he is alone, or if the charge is safe I will go ahead and charge in right away. If I deem the charge to have a high risk of death, I will stay back behind cover and launch a wave of reave spam and biotic combos until I deem a charge is safe. You can argue that this isnt the way to play a vanguard, my argument is that I have almost no deaths in an insanity+ playthrough with my vanguard.

Also, charge can be used as a defensive ability as well. You can just reave spam until enemies close range on you. Once they are close, you switch to shotgun and charge spam. I personally use my vanguard as a biotic reave/charge hybrid. I dont spam reave all day, and I dont spam charge all day. I do both about equally. And I use devastating warp explosions to really clean out the battlefield.

As I mentioned before you can't Reave most enemies the second you see them. Blood Pack and collectors are not the majority of the game. In these cases Reave is not doing what you claim to do with it. I have to ask what you do in those situations.

I also rarely die, so thats no excuse

I know this makes me look like an ****, but you aren't playing vanguard right 

If I fire a reave and it does nothing, Ill fire a warp or overload from miranda and then possibly charge in. The first reave is just something to do while I sit behind cover for 4 seconds and decide if and when its safe to charge, and if it is safe to charge then who Im going to kill and which cover I am going to run to incase there are enemies that I didnt see right behind the enemy whom I charged. It is more conservative then charging recklessly but faster in the long run because I dont have to reload. Another option is to just memorize all enemy positions and know exactly how to deal with it but I havent played through the game enough times for that yet (except maybe the suicide mission).

As for not playing Vanguard right, who said that vanguard has to be played by simply spamming charge all day and shotgunning everyone rambo style? I like to play a more intelligent vanguard who does charge in and use shotguns but only after he has assessed the situation for a second or two and launched a biotic attack from range to start the fight.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2010 - 10:16 .

[Vizzer1234]

sinosleep wrote...

That's not how it works Vizzer1234. Its like this

AP Ammo:
Shot - does weapon damage plus 70% instant damage against armor and health, close by enemies not affected.

Incendiary Ammo:
Shot - does weapon damage plus 60% towards armor in instant DoT damage. When used against health, it's an additional 60% damage a 3 second DoT. Another correction would be that enemies do NOT have to be stripped of defenses in order to be ignited. At 3:09 of this video I charge a fully shielded merc and ignite him. After I kill him I turn to my right to another fully shielded mech who is ignited. A fully shielded merc, who is ignited. I then kill him with ease. THAT is incendiary ammo's biggest advantage. You can crowd control guys without having paid any mind to them at all. 

Oh, Ok. As I said I wasn't sure how it worked, thanks for clearing that up.
I also had no idea that shielded enemies got ignited. This, as you say, Is a REALLY big advantage then.

Also my build is this:
10 inferno ammo
10 squad cryo
10 Charge
10 Shockwave
1 Pull
10 Champion

Notice that I used retrain powers to get the one free point from the bonus ability to put in pull. In my opinion one point in ANY bonus ability is just not as usefull as one point in pull.

[RamsenC]

Sabresandiego wrote...

As for not playing Vanguard right, who said that vanguard has to be played by simply spamming charge all day and shotgunning everyone rambo style? I like to play a more intelligent vanguard who does charge in and use shotguns but only after he has assessed the situation for a second or two and launched a biotic attack from range to start the fight.

Too be fair I don't charge in recklessly unless I'm trying to make an entertaining video. I've said this before, but I'll say it again.

If theres 4 enemies for example, I can overload/warp/reave one using my squadmate, pull that same enemy, have tali combat drone another, and charge kill them all easily. That's a far cry from recklessly charging in and I didn't waste points on Reave. Honestly, this is far more intelligent and effective than your reave strategy.

Also these moments where Reave does nothing against defenses is the majority of the game. Hence my confusion over your love for it.

Modifié par RamsenC, 25 février 2010 - 10:25 .

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

As for not playing Vanguard right, who said that vanguard has to be played by simply spamming charge all day and shotgunning everyone rambo style? I like to play a more intelligent vanguard who does charge in and use shotguns but only after he has assessed the situation for a second or two and launched a biotic attack from range to start the fight.

Too be fair I don't charge in recklessly unless I'm trying to make an entertaining video. I've said this before, but I'll say it again.

If theres 4 enemies for example, I can overload/warp/reave one using my squadmate, pull that same enemy, have tali combat drone another, and charge kill them all easily. That's a far cry from recklessly charging in and I didn't waste points on Reave. Honestly, this is far more intelligent and effective than your reave strategy.

Also these moments where Reave does nothing against defenses is the majority of the game. Hence my confusion over your love for it.

Reave is not the end all be all solution to vanguards. I am sure your strategy works very well. Reave is not a requirement for vanguards. And people can play the game however they choose, there is no right way to play. That being said, the most powerful character in the game which I have used is a Vanguard with reave. I have reave to fall back on when I dont want to charge. Reave is the best special ability I have used in the game so far, to the point that I feel that it is overpowered. If you dont want reave dont take it. You can play vanguard just fine without reave. I just personally feel that a reave vanguard is an overall more versatile class than a non reave vanguard.

[thisisme8]

Didn't Rumination888 post a video where he tore through the Suicide Run with just Reave?

[Darnalak]

Heh, well reave is tailor made to trash collectors and husks, so I could see that being done.

[Iz Stoik zI]

aeetos21 wrote...

Started a new playthrough, died once on FP but it was because I did something heroic like and we all know how those work out no matter how good your build is.

I'm not seeing too much difference right now at the lower levels but that's to be expected since I only have tier 2 of incendiary filled. I'm going to try and evolve squad cryo first and then worry about the rest. The biggest difference I see between pull and shockwave is how they are deployed.

One is where you usually take a half second extra to direct where you want the targets to go and the other is more point and shoot. Granted pull/warp combo works great (double biotic damage) and I used that with Miranda to get the tactician achievement but I still preferred SW after I compared the two.

Anyway, I'll probably just alternate between cryo and inferno until I can give the squad cryo ammo. Then I'll focus more on Shepard's own skills.

Oh, and I'm definitely one of the convincees who learned that AP ammo isn't the way to go with the VG.

If you want my opinion here, Heavy Charge and Champion should be the first two things a Vanguard should max out, in that order. The first is a dramatic increase in killing speed and survivability early in the game and the second adds to that by reducing it's cooldown and granting you additional health. My VG started at level 5 because I imported a level 60 Vanguard that I played the hell out of in ME1. I think this gave me 8 squad points right from the start, and I spent all of them on Charge(I think).

As soon as I finished talking to the Illusive Man for the first time, I used the 2 points from the level up and grabbed Heavy Charge -- just in time for Freedom's Progress.

I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I find that nothing helps out in the early game more than having the bullet time effect after a Charge. At the start of the game your health is lower and you don't have defensive u[grades yet, making you pretty vulnerable when you charge into groups of enemies. Heavy Charge will give you an edge in the early game by granting you a couple of extra seconds kill your enemy and get to safety.

Once I have Heavy Charge and Champion, I start working towards Inferno Ammo, then Squad Cryo, and then whatever else I want to spend points on. I went with Reave last time.

/rant

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 25 février 2010 - 02:53 .

[Hailcloud]

Everyone, for the record, I respecced into Area Pull last night before the IFF mission....and it was glorious.



Thank you all very much for the recommendations there! Those husks just floated by harmlessly as I got to enjoy Grunt mowing down more and then laughing about it.



"I swear it was glorious."

[Nexolek]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

aeetos21 wrote...

Started a new playthrough, died once on FP but it was because I did something heroic like and we all know how those work out no matter how good your build is.

I'm not seeing too much difference right now at the lower levels but that's to be expected since I only have tier 2 of incendiary filled. I'm going to try and evolve squad cryo first and then worry about the rest. The biggest difference I see between pull and shockwave is how they are deployed.

One is where you usually take a half second extra to direct where you want the targets to go and the other is more point and shoot. Granted pull/warp combo works great (double biotic damage) and I used that with Miranda to get the tactician achievement but I still preferred SW after I compared the two.

Anyway, I'll probably just alternate between cryo and inferno until I can give the squad cryo ammo. Then I'll focus more on Shepard's own skills.

Oh, and I'm definitely one of the convincees who learned that AP ammo isn't the way to go with the VG.

If you want my opinion here, Heavy Charge and Champion should be the first two things a Vanguard should max out, in that order. The first is a dramatic increase in killing speed and survivability early in the game and the second adds to that by reducing it's cooldown and granting you additional health. My VG started at level 5 because I imported a level 60 Vanguard that I played the hell out of in ME1. I think this gave me 8 squad points right from the start, and I spent all of them on Charge(I think).

As soon as I finished talking to the Illusive Man for the first time, I used the 2 points from the level up and grabbed Heavy Charge -- just in time for Freedom's Progress.

I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I find that nothing helps out in the early game more than having the bullet time effect after a Charge. At the start of the game your health is lower and you don't have defensive u[grades yet, making you pretty vulnerable when you charge into groups of enemies. Heavy Charge will give you an edge in the early game by granting you a couple of extra seconds kill your enemy and get to safety.

Once I have Heavy Charge and Champion, I start working towards Inferno Ammo, then Squad Cryo, and then whatever else I want to spend points on. I went with Reave last time.

/rant

Definitely have to agree with that. I just started another Vanguard last night and have gone the exact same way. Having Heavy Charge right away is absolutely awesome. With the visor for added headshot damage and the Evi I decimated Mordin's recruitment mission faster and easier than I have with various other classes. Jacob provides squad Incendiary Ammo right off the hop if importing a 60 and after Freedom's Progress.

I personally don't spend a single point on Cryo until I can go all the way (in other words, recpeccing into it once I have enough points). Otherwise, they're points spent on something that you'll never use, when you could use them elsewhere.

[thisisme8]

Hailcloud wrote...

Everyone, for the record, I respecced into Area Pull last night before the IFF mission....and it was glorious.

Thank you all very much for the recommendations there! Those husks just floated by harmlessly as I got to enjoy Grunt mowing down more and then laughing about it.

"I swear it was glorious."

I think the Avalanche + Area Pull would make the IFF a breeze.  Might have to test it.

[Hailcloud]

thisisme8 wrote...

Hailcloud wrote...

Everyone, for the record, I respecced into Area Pull last night before the IFF mission....and it was glorious.

Thank you all very much for the recommendations there! Those husks just floated by harmlessly as I got to enjoy Grunt mowing down more and then laughing about it.

"I swear it was glorious."

I think the Avalanche + Area Pull would make the IFF a breeze.  Might have to test it.

Roger that.  Thinking back on it, I don't think I've ever actually given the Avalanche a go....yea gonna need to change that soon.  You made me a believer in all things Cryo after your Squad Cryo argument and after I experienced  the results of the ability firsthand.  Fantastic stuff man.  Hats off again =)

[Iz Stoik zI]

Hailcloud wrote...

Roger that.  Thinking back on it, I don't think I've ever actually given the Avalanche a go....yea gonna need to change that soon.  You made me a believer in all things Cryo after your Squad Cryo argument and after I experienced  the results of the ability firsthand.  Fantastic stuff man.  Hats off again =)

The Avalanche is amazing vs. Husks. Fire it into a group of them and it will strip their armor and likely freeze most of them in place. Hit them with an Area Pull or a Shockwave to mop them up afterwards.

It's my favourite heavy weapon in the game. Squad Cryo is great, but sometimes it doesn't work -- squad can't target opponents, squad is dead, squad changes it's ammo type etc.

When enemies are grouped up tightly, a few shots from the Avalanche is usually sufficient to soften them up. Anyone that isn't frozen will die fast, and the ones that are frozen simply lay there waiting to be melee'd to death. It's most useful against Husks, but it's saved my life multiple times and made a lot of hard battles much easier for me to handle.

[thisisme8]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

Hailcloud wrote...

Roger that.  Thinking back on it, I don't think I've ever actually given the Avalanche a go....yea gonna need to change that soon.  You made me a believer in all things Cryo after your Squad Cryo argument and after I experienced  the results of the ability firsthand.  Fantastic stuff man.  Hats off again =)

The Avalanche is amazing vs. Husks. Fire it into a group of them and it will strip their armor and likely freeze most of them in place. Hit them with an Area Pull or a Shockwave to mop them up afterwards.

It's my favourite heavy weapon in the game. Squad Cryo is great, but sometimes it doesn't work -- squad can't target opponents, squad is dead, squad changes it's ammo type etc.

When enemies are grouped up tightly, a few shots from the Avalanche is usually sufficient to soften them up. Anyone that isn't frozen will die fast, and the ones that are frozen simply lay there waiting to be melee'd to death. It's most useful against Husks, but it's saved my life multiple times and made a lot of hard battles much easier for me to handle.

It actually does x8 damage to armor barrier and shields since its base is damage is so low.  That said, it will immediately strip the armor off of Husks in 1 shot on Insanity.  One shot Avalanche, one Area Pull and you should have a bunch of dead Husks.

[Hailcloud]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...



The Avalanche is amazing vs. Husks. Fire it into a group of them and it will strip their armor and likely freeze most of them in place. Hit them with an Area Pull or a Shockwave to mop them up afterwards.



It's my favourite heavy weapon in the game. Squad Cryo is great, but sometimes it doesn't work -- squad can't target opponents, squad is dead, squad changes it's ammo type etc.



When enemies are grouped up tightly, a few shots from the Avalanche is usually sufficient to soften them up. Anyone that isn't frozen will die fast, and the ones that are frozen simply lay there waiting to be melee'd to death. It's most useful against Husks, but it's saved my life multiple times and made a lot of hard battles much easier for me to handle.

thisisme8 wrote...



It actually does x8 damage to armor barrier and shields since its base is damage is so low. That said, it will immediately strip the armor off of Husks in 1 shot on Insanity. One shot Avalanche, one Area Pull and you should have a bunch of dead Husks.

Oh damn! Sounds like I really missed out on those husks last night.....next time husks!!! Avalanche fury!!! *shakes fist at the heavens*

[Iz Stoik zI]

thisisme8 wrote...

It actually does x8 damage to armor barrier and shields since its base is damage is so low.  That said, it will immediately strip the armor off of Husks in 1 shot on Insanity.  One shot Avalanche, one Area Pull and you should have a bunch of dead Husks.

Even better, then. I noticed that it's not the greatest weapon for taking down defenses, but it does well enough. I carry this beast around with me almost exclusively. It just has so many uses, and with something like 30 shots when fully upgraded, a ton of ammo to sling around. It made some parts of Grunt's recruitment mission a fricking cakewalk, specifically the large fight before Okeer's lab.

I take the Collector Beam once in a while and the Cain once or twice,  but the Avalanche is my bread and butter Heavy weapon for most of the game.

[mundus66]

Just a question regarding inferno ammo and dots in general. If a mob has a dot on him and then gets hit again with another dot will the dot stack or will the remaining damage on the dot be dealt right away? I'm assuming the damage wont go away since then clearly ap ammo would be better.

Modifié par mundus66, 25 février 2010 - 09:02 .

[Vizzer1234]

I didn't use any heavy weapons for the IFF mission because I wanted two Cain shots for the endboss, but I found that using the pistol you start out with (72 shots total) and inferno ammo, a Husks armor is stripped in two body shots, then using pull is instant kill.

Makes it pretty easy to just fire a clip into a group of husks and then just Area pull them. I have actually never tried the Avalanche and exclusively use the grenade launcher and Cain, maybe I should try it out.

[_Dannok1234]

Mundus66, please don't say that. I mean it doesn't matter if the dot works this way or that way. It doesn't change anything at all. AP ammo is excrement for a char that has Inferno ammo, the end. If you don't believe me, please read through the last 6-7 pages or so and try to refute anything said by me and Sinosleep about AP ammo.

[sinosleep]

mundus66 wrote...

Just a question regarding inferno ammo and dots in general. If a mob has a dot on him and then gets hit again with another dot will the dot stack or will the remaining damage on the dot be dealt right away? I'm assuming the damage wont go away since them clearly ap ammo would be better.

I'm not sure how the dot works on health with multiple shots, but at the end of the day any theory crafting in regards to it is useless compared to the video. It took 5 shots with AP ammo and scimi to kill a rachni, and it took 5 shots with inferno ammo and scimi to kill a rachni. It took 3 shots with AP ammo and evi to kill a rachni and 3 shots with inferno ammo and the evi to kill a rachni. Creatures that are exactly the kind of creature where if AP had any advantage, it should have shown it as the larger the health the clearer the advantage should have been. If it's not a functional difference on large health/armor targets, it's certainly not going to be noticeable on low life/health targets. 

[thisisme8]

It's pretty hard to argue with that video. I'm a good example too... When I first put this guide up, it was filled with me singing the praises of AP/Tungsten Rounds. A couple of us buckled down and thoroughly tested it, and it just isn't worth it due to the redundancy and lack of Panic CC/DoT.

[_Dannok1234]

Don't know if this really applies to vanguards as such, since we don't use all that many powers, but thought I'd just throw it out there as I've seen people saying this and that about shields vs health and such.

I haven't tested it for all enemies, but when it comes to Geth Troopers and Geth Hunters they have a 1:1 ratio of shield and health. Takes 3 melee hits to take down the shield of a trooper and 3 to take out it's health. Same deal with the hunter, just a lot more hits I suppose if your crazy enough to test it with melee only . I have a feeling it's pretty much the same for most creatures.

[_Dannok1234]

Video! Bah kids these days, come on man, I've been stating that stuff for ages. You telling me that if I bothered to make a video rather then give all the relevant details of the test so that people could try it out for themselves if they didn't believe me, would actually have believed me?

Edit: Had to check, it's way back on page 3!

Modifié par Dannok1234, 25 février 2010 - 09:12 .