2583 réponses à ce sujet

[padaE]

That's fine for me.

[Iz Stoik zI]

padaE wrote...

I'm not sure why too.

It's a tired topic that has been discusse dmany times already. AP Ammo is still second fiddle to Inferno.

On another note, you misunderstood the context of RamsenC's reply.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 06 mars 2010 - 03:52 .

[thisisme8]

RamsenC wrote...

I think I'm starting to like the stagger fest that shockwave and area charge offer. I think I'd rather have Thane than a concussive shot guy for warp explosions and throw, but you can't go wrong with Grunt. Not saying this is the best way to play, but it's a nice change of pace. I think when it comes to speed runs area charge would be better since you can strip, charge, destroy groups of enemies, but its obviously less safe.

I kind of use shockwave the way I use Tali's combat drone. It does last a shorter amount of time, but its much more spammable and the aoe is nice. If only they would fix that stupid squad ammo issue. I'm trying to hold off playing this game until more dlc is added, but its getting more difficult to resist.

I'm with you.  The AoE from Shockwave is nice, especially if you can line it up just right because it can stagger a whole group.  The way I'm playing in those videos is a lot more chaotic than my orginal runs, but I want to see if it plays better once I'm good at it.  It definitely adds a new level of intensity to it...  less shields, no slow-mo, and no stripping.  The gain is control.  That's what I'm trying to perfect right now.  Also going to go full on with a Sinosleep style build.

4 Inferno Ammo
1 Cryo Ammo
4 Area Charge
4 Area Shockwave
4 Pull Field
4 Champion
Evi/Scim + Viper

I already have Charge and Champion maxed, so right now I'm gunning for Pull Field.  Will follow with Inferno, Shockwave, and a point in Cryo.

Might I add how fun it is to do exactly what any sane Vanguard would not do?  Charge right into the middle of large groups... only take the Avalanche with you.

[bbslayer_07]

My gosh thisisme8, how do you manage to get away with stuff like that? In your 2nd vid at 1:40 - 1:55 you run up to a centurion shoot him and then just walk away without killing him, and yet he doesn't even seem to try and kill you, not to mention you avoid getting hit by rockets. Either they're deafly afraid of you or they're just too lazy to accurately shoot at you. If I were to try that the second I'd turn to walk away he'd gun me down.

[thisisme8]

bbslayer_07 wrote...

My gosh thisisme8, how do you manage to get away with stuff like that? In your 2nd vid at 1:40 - 1:55 you run up to a centurion shoot him and then just walk away without killing him, and yet he doesn't even seem to try and kill you, not to mention you avoid getting hit by rockets. Either they're deafly afraid of you or they're just too lazy to accurately shoot at you. If I were to try that the second I'd turn to walk away he'd gun me down.

If you listen carefully, Jack is saying her "I can take you all" line whenever she does a Shockwave.  It's not 'on camera' but I used her Shockwave to stagger them so I could move around to target the guy I eventually Charged.


Edit:  She says, "Nothing can stop me!"

Modifié par thisisme8, 06 mars 2010 - 04:33 .

[bbslayer_07]

thisisme8 wrote...

If you listen carefully, Jack is saying her "I can take you all" line whenever she does a Shockwave.  It's not 'on camera' but I used her Shockwave to stagger them so I could move around to target the guy I eventually Charged.

oh, nope didn't hear that. Anyways still impressive and an interesting way to use the avalanche, I'll have to give that a try.

[Sabresandiego]

I really think area reave needs a bigger mention in this guide in the bonus skills section. There is no bonus skill that even remotely compares with it, especially for a vanguard.

[_Dannok1234]

Not taking any bonus skill, works just as well though. You even prove that in your speed run video, you can use charge+shotgun to set off warp explosions rather then Reave. It's not like it's a needed power.

[Sabresandiego]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Not taking any bonus skill, works just as well though. You even prove that in your speed run video, you can use charge+shotgun to set off warp explosions rather then Reave. It's not like it's a needed power.

Reave is very useful to use as a ranged attack when charging isnt the right option or simply isnt an option.

[thisisme8]

If Vanguard skills can be equated to personality, then bonus powers are looks. They're great, they're attractive, and they can get you a first date, but at the end of the day, if you don't have a solid grasp on the in's and out's of your primary functions, then you're essentially defined by your looks and not your personality.



That's why I don't go into details in the OP about bonus skills or weapons. My fear is that if I do put in a section detailing the awesome benefits of Reave (which there are plenty), the OP loses its substance as a Vanguard thread. To endorse Reave as a staple in a build is to tell potentially new Vanguard players that the class in itself is not complete or strong enough without a bonus power. I did that with the original version and AP Ammo and I don't think that I will do it again.

[_Dannok1234]

Well said Thisisme, thats pretty much what I was trying to say. Something to keep in mind that reave is so damn powerful that it's not just vanguards that have benefits from it, but pretty much any class at all really. From my perspective a class guide should focus on what makes the class unique rather than benefits of overpowered bonus powers.

[ccconda]

But...but...Reave is OP.

[Sabresandiego]

Good point thisisme. Its true that reave can be used on any class, and this is a vanguard guide. I dont think you should go into detail about reave but maybe you should mention how powerful area reave is just as a sidenote when you talk about bonus powers.

[thisisme8]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Good point thisisme. Its true that reave can be used on any class, and this is a vanguard guide. I dont think you should go into detail about reave but maybe you should mention how powerful area reave is just as a sidenote when you talk about bonus powers.

I sent you a PM about an idea that I had where we can have the best of both worlds.  The information should be out there and I think I may have thought of a good solution.

[Sabresandiego]

Have you all done both renegade and paragon playthroughs? I just cant get myself to be evil I always go paragon. I do make some renegade choices but I always end up being 100% paragon and maybe only 10-20% renegade.

[ccconda]

Renegade shep can be a total retard. pointing guns and getting all pissed off over nothing. He's like an angry bipolar baby.

Paragon shep can be REALLY touchy, super stick-up-butt, and PREACHY AS HELL.



Paragon/Renegade Shep all the way

[KSerge]

I've gotten a little bit better controlling my charge habits, and my 2nd attempt at freedom's progress was a lot less painful in general. I'm hoping that other missions that are more charge friendly will help me get into the swing of vanguarding.

[RamsenC]

The problem with suggesting Reave as your bonus power in a guide is it will only be worthwhile on the 3 or so collector missions. Picking an ability that helps you the entire game and using squad mates for niche powers makes more sense.

The one good thing I can say about bonus power Reave is it allows you to get Warp, Pull Field, Area Reave, and Squad Cryo in one squad. However, theres still the issue of it being suboptimal for the majority of the game. Even on a Blood Pack mission late enough into the game for you to have Area Reave, you have to bring Mordin who has incinerate, the best armor stripper.

Modifié par RamsenC, 06 mars 2010 - 10:53 .

[Vizzer1234]

I have done a Complete Renegade playthrough, but with my main character that I plan on taking to ME3, I made most main Paragon choices but was Renegeda in conversations, giving me an end result of 100% Paragon and 60-70% Renegade.

I think that no bonus power at all is the way to go, I have every power maxed 'cept only one point in pull and no points in bonus.

[Sabresandiego]

RamsenC wrote...

The problem with suggesting Reave as your bonus power in a guide is it will only be worthwhile on the 3 or so collector missions. Picking an ability that helps you the entire game and using squad mates for niche powers makes more sense.

The one good thing I can say about bonus power Reave is it allows you to get Warp, Pull Field, Area Reave, and Squad Cryo in one squad. However, theres still the issue of it being suboptimal for the majority of the game. Even on a Blood Pack mission late enough into the game for you to have Area Reave, you have to bring Mordin who has incinerate, the best armor stripper.

Area Reave isnt only good vs collectors. It does insane AOE damage to barrier and aoe. That makes it really good against krogans, vorcha, eclipse, mechs, collectors, husks, scions, praetorians, basically every enemy except blue suns and geth.

[_Dannok1234]

It can be used to good effect against everything I agree with that. But it can also turn your fun and unique vanguard into a generic ranged class, unless you use it for the few occasions when charging is not an option.

[cxensign]

Sabresandiego wrote...

I really think area reave needs a bigger mention in this guide in the bonus skills section. There is no bonus skill that even remotely compares with it, especially for a vanguard.

The problem with bringing Reave into the picture is that there's a very, very strong tendency to fall back on Reave spamming once the skill is on your bar and specced - and that makes your character worse.  Sure, it's a very strong power, but Charge is even better; and if you're not maximizing Charge, you're better off choosing another class.

So there is a very real risk that players who have not figured out Charge yet will see a suggestion of Area Reave.  If they haven't learned the ins and outs of Charge yet - and Charge is one of the trickiest powers in the game to learn - the 'high floor, low ceiling' of Reave will probably perform a lot better for them immediately - but, in doing so, will prevent them from improving as a player.

It is a single player game and people can certainly play whatever way they want, and if easy if suboptimal play is good enough for them, great.  But this sort of thread is trying to teach people the ins and outs of the class, and Reave short circuits that.

...for players still grappling with the basics of Charge I think Barrier is actually the best power; one point in Barrier is a good failsafe for bad charges, refilling shields as you scramble to cover.  That encourages more aggressive Charge use and aggressive play in general, which is exactly what's warranted.  I think you'll also find that Barrier is pretty useful in a lot of the same situations Reave is - they just get solved by being more aggressive with guns instead of playing like Adept-lite.

[VirtualAlex]

Loving the crazy vids. Keep these coming.



Don't you guys think it would be easier to just do New Game+? that way you could have 51 points to assign without having to waste time leveling and you could try any build and see how good it works when it's fully complete. Also having super strong enemies would be a fun challenge no?

[Sabresandiego]

VirtualAlex wrote...

Loving the crazy vids. Keep these coming.

Don't you guys think it would be easier to just do New Game+? that way you could have 51 points to assign without having to waste time leveling and you could try any build and see how good it works when it's fully complete. Also having super strong enemies would be a fun challenge no?

I always do new game plus because I like having all my powers. Its kind of annoying that enemies have such ridiculous upgrades when you have none though, it makes it take forever to kill things until halfway through the game.

[thisisme8]

cxensign wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

I really think area reave needs a bigger mention in this guide in the bonus skills section. There is no bonus skill that even remotely compares with it, especially for a vanguard.

The problem with bringing Reave into the picture is that there's a very, very strong tendency to fall back on Reave spamming once the skill is on your bar and specced - and that makes your character worse.  Sure, it's a very strong power, but Charge is even better; and if you're not maximizing Charge, you're better off choosing another class.

So there is a very real risk that players who have not figured out Charge yet will see a suggestion of Area Reave.  If they haven't learned the ins and outs of Charge yet - and Charge is one of the trickiest powers in the game to learn - the 'high floor, low ceiling' of Reave will probably perform a lot better for them immediately - but, in doing so, will prevent them from improving as a player.

It is a single player game and people can certainly play whatever way they want, and if easy if suboptimal play is good enough for them, great.  But this sort of thread is trying to teach people the ins and outs of the class, and Reave short circuits that.

...for players still grappling with the basics of Charge I think Barrier is actually the best power; one point in Barrier is a good failsafe for bad charges, refilling shields as you scramble to cover.  That encourages more aggressive Charge use and aggressive play in general, which is exactly what's warranted.  I think you'll also find that Barrier is pretty useful in a lot of the same situations Reave is - they just get solved by being more aggressive with guns instead of playing like Adept-lite.

Regarding Barrier:  You could always just use a Medi-gel instead and save yourself the bonus power.