2583 réponses à ce sujet

[_Dannok1234]

This is so odd.
Setup and method :
Level 30, shotgun 5/5 upgrades, melee upgrade, melee shoulder armor. Champion, Heavy Charge. Tungsten ammo. Heretic Base, first geth you encounter. They are connected to a hub. I park my squad in the room before this so they cannot interfere. I position myself so that I target the geth hunter, then I cross the green line to make them hostile, and immediately charge the geth hunter.

Geth Hunter vs Evi no ammo mod 2 shots 4 melee=dead (not in that order)
Geth Hunter vs Evi Tungsten ammo 2 shots 4 melee=dead (not in that order)
Geth Hunter vs Scimitar no ammo mod 4 shots 4 melee = Dead (not in that order)
Get Hunter vs Scimitar Tungsten Ammo 4 shots 4 melee=dead (not in that order)
Warp Ammo is just the same with the evi, didn't bother with scimitar.

For troopers, Evi headshot=dead Regardless of with or without ammo mod. Body shot+melee also for both. Scimitar 2 shots +1 melee also regardless of ammo.

Possible that you could drop one melee hit with Warp/tungsten but that doesn't really make a world of difference as the fire rate allows for that to be done anyway.


You can notice when using the Evi that the health damage is a bit more when using tungsten/warp, it's just not enough to matter in this case.

Both weapons kill the geth hunter in the same sort of time frame. There are probably some milliseconds in difference, but I have to say that the wait on Charge to become available while you have 2 troopers firing on you feels too long.

Edit: +15% damage bonus from miranda (not sure that really matters tho)
Seems to me that it really doesn't matter if you are using Scimitar, Evi or Claymore. It's pretty much down to personal taste. Though I will maintain that the Scimitar is the safest in that it is the most forgiving if you miss, and as such feels safer against groups of up to 3 to me at least. 
Bottom line. It doesn't matter which ammo you take or the shotgun. It's all about which flavor you prefer.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 11 février 2010 - 07:31 .

[Malanthor]

Your saying that having ammunition skill mean... squat?



Sure your not bugged somehow?

[_Dannok1234]

No clue if I'm bugged or not, but I can tell a small difference in the health of the enemies, it's just that it's so small using those two shotguns that it doesn't matter. You still need to do the same number of attacks.
However since I think I listed whats important for anyone to replicate it if they wish to, it should be easy to confirm/deny.

Edit: Having one ammo skill does mean something. Remember these don't have armor. I always take inferno for the armor penetration and for the 3m explosive fire effect that panics organic enemies. I find that to be a really useful tool when charging groups of organic enemies. Makes the first part of the collector base a breeze as a charging madman. (Also taking something like Cryo ammo can be to your advantage on geth since that has more dramatic effect on them then anything else a vanguard can get as an ammo skill, and it's funny to see everyone frozen if you take it as a squad ammo)

Modifié par Dannok1234, 11 février 2010 - 07:44 .

[thisisme8]

Dannok1234 wrote...

No clue if I'm bugged or not, but I can tell a small difference in the health of the enemies, it's just that it's so small using those two shotguns that it doesn't matter. You still need to do the same number of attacks.
However since I think I listed whats important for anyone to replicate it if they wish to, it should be easy to confirm/deny.

Tungsten Ammo won't be doing much vs. Geth anyway as they are all shields and little health.  One of these days I'm going to take Zaeed with Squad Disruptor Ammo and see if he's worth replacing Legion/Tali/Miranda/Garrus.

Warp ammo also affects health and armor but adds barriers too...  still no shields.

So really what you discovered is that the choice for shotguns is based on preference.  That's actually a great thing.

[Malanthor]

Yeah, sadly i just erased my old soldier savagame or i could have tested it with him, he also had tungsten. Starting a vanguard now, soldier got a tad too booring for me.



So to throw this in: Do you think this is fine?

Heavy charge 4, tungsten 4, destroyer 4, shockwave 4, pull 4 (biotics just for amusement mostly)

Picking AR or sniper instead of claymore, which by the way?

[_Dannok1234]

You won't notice the damage increase from destroyer I'm thinking, but you will notice the difference between under 4 sec recharge on charge and over 4 sec recharge on charge. So I'd go with Champion. That doesn't mean it won't work fine with the destroyer. Just that I personally like to charge as much and as fast as possible.Other then that I'm sure you'll be fine. Can always trade in the Tungsten for inferno later if you feel you need a bit more of a safety net against organics.



As long as you have Heavy Charge, Champion/destroyer, the rest is all gravy.

[Malanthor]

yup yup, thanks

[Kronner]

Dannok1234 wrote...

This is so odd.
Setup and method :
Level 30, shotgun 5/5 upgrades, melee upgrade, melee shoulder armor. Champion, Heavy Charge. Tungsten ammo. Heretic Base, first geth you encounter. They are connected to a hub. I park my squad in the room before this so they cannot interfere. I position myself so that I target the geth hunter, then I cross the green line to make them hostile, and immediately charge the geth hunter.

Geth Hunter vs Evi no ammo mod 2 shots 4 melee=dead (not in that order)
Geth Hunter vs Evi Tungsten ammo 2 shots 4 melee=dead (not in that order)
Geth Hunter vs Scimitar no ammo mod 4 shots 4 melee = Dead (not in that order)
Get Hunter vs Scimitar Tungsten Ammo 4 shots 4 melee=dead (not in that order)
Warp Ammo is just the same with the evi, didn't bother with scimitar.

For troopers, Evi headshot=dead Regardless of with or without ammo mod. Body shot+melee also for both. Scimitar 2 shots +1 melee also regardless of ammo.

Possible that you could drop one melee hit with Warp/tungsten but that doesn't really make a world of difference as the fire rate allows for that to be done anyway.


You can notice when using the Evi that the health damage is a bit more when using tungsten/warp, it's just not enough to matter in this case.

Both weapons kill the geth hunter in the same sort of time frame. There are probably some milliseconds in difference, but I have to say that the wait on Charge to become available while you have 2 troopers firing on you feels too long.

Edit: +15% damage bonus from miranda (not sure that really matters tho)
Seems to me that it really doesn't matter if you are using Scimitar, Evi or Claymore. It's pretty much down to personal taste. Though I will maintain that the Scimitar is the safest in that it is the most forgiving if you miss, and as such feels safer against groups of up to 3 to me at least. 
Bottom line. It doesn't matter which ammo you take or the shotgun. It's all about which flavor you prefer.

Well, maybe because Geth have little health so it makes no difference?
Anyways, I tested Inferno, Warp and Tungsten ammo on Collectors (using Claymore and Evi, with level 30 Vanguard, NG+ Insanity, 2/5 SG damage and +50% vs. shields) and the difference was very tiny, with more upgrades I do not think I would even notice any difference.
I also agree that Champion is the way to go, it is a lot better than Destroyer, not only for cooldown but for the Paragon/Renegade bonus too.

Modifié par Kronner, 11 février 2010 - 08:09 .

[thisisme8]

Self Controll wrote...

Yeah, sadly i just erased my old soldier savagame or i could have tested it with him, he also had tungsten. Starting a vanguard now, soldier got a tad too booring for me.

So to throw this in: Do you think this is fine?
Heavy charge 4, tungsten 4, destroyer 4, shockwave 4, pull 4 (biotics just for amusement mostly)
Picking AR or sniper instead of claymore, which by the way?

I'd take Destroyer before Tungsten and rely on Jacob or Grunt to provide Squad Inferno early on.  Probably Jacob since I don't really use him much once I get a good roster.  I also pick Champion over Destroyer for the Biotic cooldown and extra Paragon/Renegade points, but the difference in damage to cooldown between the two is something like 6%, so you could probably go either way.

Maxing Shockwave and Pull on Hardcore/Insanity is a gutsy move, but if you are taking the AR or Sniper Rifle, I can see some use out of it.  Pull really only needs one point to be effective since all you are getting is "float time" by increasing it, unless you go for Area Pull which seems extremely situational.  I'd rather max out Squad Cryo than Shockwave and Pull since they will serve their purpose without such an investment.

The choice between AR and Sniper Rifle is completely up to you and your playstyle, as we are rapidly learning the choice of which shotgun to use is also about which better suits you.  As of right now (and it changes), I would use Evi for Freedom's Progress and Mordin's recruitment mission, switch to the Katana for Jack's (so you can pick up the second shotgun upgrade right away), then back to Evi until the Scim is available and you can decide which you prefer (pick up the Scim on Samara's recruitment mission).

[Malanthor]

Yeah, i decided on destroyer because of the recent info regarding power bonus affecting ammunition, so its a 10,5% extra damage there. But maybe champion is still better. /shrugs. Hard to say. hehe.

Thanks for the help. Im gonne jump in and start my new game now.

[akseltestdrive4]

Is area charge or heavy charge better? I have read some guides that advocate area charge because the aoe helps to minor stun small groups of people.

[Kronner]

akseltestdrive4 wrote...

Is area charge or heavy charge better? I have read some guides that advocate area charge because the aoe helps to minor stun small groups of people.

imho its Heavy Charge easily (at least on Insanity).

[sinosleep]

Gotta agree with Kronner. For me its heavy and it's not close.

[GCreature]

I'm curious about people saying that it's taking them one shot and a melee to kill most enemies with the scimitar.

With the new info' that power bonuses affect ammo, would having Blood Dragon Armour and Destroyer be enough of an increase to Heavy Charge and Tungsten Ammo to make it a kill without the butt-stroke?

Edit: Remembered that you'd lose the 10% headshot damage, but you could still have that +8% power boost from armour.

Modifié par GCreature, 11 février 2010 - 11:43 .

[Kronner]

GCreature wrote...

I'm curious about people saying that it's taking them one shot and a melee to kill most enemies with the scimitar.

With the new info' that power bonuses affect ammo, would having Blood Dragon Armour and Destroyer be enough of an increase to Heavy Charge and Tungsten Ammo to make it a kill without the butt-stroke?

Edit: Remembered that you'd lose the 10% headshot damage, but you could still have that +8% power boost from armour.

Ammo has very little effect to begin with. There is basically no difference between Warp/Tungsten/Inferno. After you Charge, you want to shoot (plus melee sometimes) and charge again asap to replenish your barrier. Champion beats Destroyer quite easily imho. Destroyers damage bonus is hardly noticeable. Not only that but Champion gives superior Paragon/Renegade bonus.
Also, I never play with the imho hideous visor that gives 10% headshot damage and yet I can easily one-shot-kill any ordinary foe when I hit his head.
And shot-melee-shot is the most effective way to kill anyways, since you have to wait a moment before you can shoot again.

[GCreature]

Either way, neither is a massive change, Champion grants about -1/3s of a charge cooldown. But even one enemy can unleash a lot of damage on you, so if you can can one shot an enemy with the scimitar and because you don't have to reload, you can start killing the guy next to him that much quicker.

[mundus66]

GCreature wrote...

I'm curious about people saying that it's taking them one shot and a melee to kill most enemies with the scimitar.

With the new info' that power bonuses affect ammo, would having Blood Dragon Armour and Destroyer be enough of an increase to Heavy Charge and Tungsten Ammo to make it a kill without the butt-stroke?

Edit: Remembered that you'd lose the 10% headshot damage, but you could still have that +8% power boost from armour.

You can still get 10% weapon damage if you use N7 armor which is better than 15% power damage.

[_Dannok1234]

GCreature wrote...



Either way, neither is a massive change, Champion grants about -1/3s of a charge cooldown. But even one enemy can unleash a lot of damage on you, so if you can can one shot an enemy with the scimitar and because you don't have to reload, you can start killing the guy next to him that much quicker.

GCreature think you might be mixing up shotguns. You'd be hard pressed to oneshot anyone with the scimitar. Champion cool down is actually fairly noticeable together with biotic upgrade it's 2.1 seconds faster instead of 1,74 from destroyer. But when you need to look very closely to find a difference between 70% damage bonus and 0, then 6%(increase of base) and 15%(of 70% ap ammo) the extra damage will probably only be apparent on a spreadsheet.



There is also this little fact. I did eventually find a difference between no ammo and AP, which was you can do 3 instead of 4 melee attacks when using the Evi/Scimitar on a Geth Hunter. (ps to everyone who said they have low health, with Evi first shot + 2 melee is for the shield, next shot and 2 melee is for the health, don't think other elites have that much more.) When you use AP ammo, you can do one melee attack less at the end to get it to die(not hit required with scimitar). However, you still have time to do another melee hit before you can fire anyway. Same thing with the scimitar 1 shot+melee is not slower then 1 shot alone, as you cannot shoot again for another 0.6 seconds regardless. You might as well be doing some damage in that brief time, and both weapons will be ready to fire again roughly at the same time. For every one shot you do with the Evi, you do 2 with the Scimitar.(Evi has a small edge on it vs armor)



Now if you meant the Claymore rather then the scimitar you would be correct. You'd be able to start the reload a fraction of a second faster then if you had to melee once. Which pretty much makes it the only shotgun that the ammo has any sort of impact on, still, I'm not sure you'd be able to see destroyer bonuses or not, could well be "overkill".



Ps 15% power damage with AP ammo, is essentially 10.5% weapon damage. 70*1,15=80,5. So not much difference.

[Kurupt87]

bonus power wise and which shotty to choose is all about personal choice, like thisisme8 has said. personally, i like to rely less on my squad and be able to bring everything to the table myself, in regards to effectively killing a room alone. i generally play VG on NG+ and have found the following to give me that independence from squaddies.

armour wise: 5% wep dmg helmet; 25% melee shoulders; 5% shields chest; 5% wep dmg wrists; 3% shields legs/10% health legs.
weapon wise: picked up AR to give me more range vs protection.
bonus talent: picked up area reave, again, for more range against protection.
talents: hvy charge 4; champion 4; inferno ammo 4; area reave 4; cryo squad 4; shockwave 1
main weapon: scimitar, vindicator at range.

playstyle: i play as mad charger, so in other words i charge anyone and everything, the only exception being Ymir mechs, and harbinger can also be very dangerous if he's in a bad mood. if i'm up against a room of mobs, and there isnt a special, so someone with a barrier/tech armour type of defence, then charge away, obviously choosing enemies on the fringes first, so rockets/assassins/snipers, before moving onto the normals. if there is a special, an area reave followed by 3.6s of AR fire, then charging, makes life much easier. the area reave not only hits the specials barrier/armour, but they are normally next to one or two others, so their shields take minor dmg as well. the vindicator can unload viscious dmg from range, and if you know there's no armour coming up, then the geth rifles automatic fire does alot of damage.
shotgun wise, i really like the scimitar with inferno ammo because it gives so much safety vs the one-hit shotguns. the flinch from being shotgunned combined with the aoe explosion flinch from inferno ammo against organics is really good at keeping my arse alive until i can charge again, you're main target virtually never does anything, between shotgun/melee/inferno stuns he is stunlocked to death. i dropped the headshot helmet for wep dmg because i find myself sidestepping alot with the scimitar, to avoid the enemies fire up close, which can be lethal, so find consistent headshots harder to pull off, but that said, against norms charge;shotty;melee;shotty and most things are dead.

the only place where i feel vulnerable is missions against the geth, as inferno ammo does sweet fa to them, virtually no extra dmg and no flinching. so, i bring zaeed with me, and thisisme8, yes it makes a difference. i do more dmg with squad disruptor against geth than any other enemy. against geth normals a charge;shotgun to the head is a one hit kill from the scimitar! combined with the stun it does on synthetics and the fact that sidestepping means some of your 8 pellets are hitting other mobs, charging hunters by geth hubs becomes laughably easy. sailed through the boss type fight against waves of enemies on legions loyalty mission like it was casual.
the only trouble with this build is that its only really viable after you've got the +50% shield dmg, as the scimitar is the weakest of the shotguns and needs that little bit of extra help. this could ofcourse be solved by bringing zaeed along for his disruptor, but then you lose the inferno effect.

just my 2 cents, and hopefully the build will stand up to the scrutiny of you guys, and can be an alternative to the various builds already posted.
thanks for reading my essay.

edit: due to brain limitations this is a late addition, activate squad cryo ammo then activate inferno ammo, your squad keeps cryo while you have inferno. this is good due to surprising amounts of enemies getting frozen from squaddie fire.

Modifié par Kurupt87, 12 février 2010 - 11:20 .

[_Dannok1234]

Thats pretty close to what I've been cluttering up this thread with so far

[Kurupt87]

yeah dannok1234, and i think kronner too plays this kinda build, that kinda gave me the courage to post, knowing i'm not alone out there! aim was to put it all in one place and make it kinda guidish like thisisme8's OP is, and since i this thread i put it here as an alternative, rather than create a new one.

[GCreature]

Dannok1234 wrote...

GCreature think you might be mixing up shotguns. You'd be hard pressed to oneshot anyone with the scimitar.

No, I was thinking of scimitars', turns out the source of information was talking out of his ass. Serves me right for taking stock in something I read on gamespot, should've tested more thoroughly myself.

Champion cool down is actually fairly noticeable together with biotic upgrade it's 2.1 seconds faster instead of 1,74 from destroyer. But when you need to look very closely to find a difference between 70% damage bonus and 0, then 6%(increase of base) and 15%(of 70% ap ammo) the extra damage will probably only be apparent on a spreadsheet.

Honestly I don't find the 0.36 difference between the two is that great. Then again I almost always Charge the guy nearest to cover, kill 'em with the Claymore (+ melee if needed), then scurry back behind cover, so the cooldown isn't as important. It's a lot more conservative than some of the vids I've been seeing, but I think it's safer because my aiming isn't quick/accurate enough with a mouse to immediately go for the next guy. A hell of a lot less impressive though.

Anyway, thanks for the info', I'll have to re-evaluate how I do things.

[ChaoticBroth]

Yup. I think that since majority of the game involves organics, using Inferno ammo for its "stunning," if you wish to call it that, effect would be a very good choice. Area Reave seems like it would be very nice to take care of those multi-layered bosses, or just regular organics.



Now, I'm pretty close to the Collector Ship mission, and I'm wondering the following. What would be the main difference in playstyle if I picked AR specialization over the Claymore spec?

[thisisme8]

Kurupt87 wrote...

yeah dannok1234, and i think kronner too plays this kinda build, that kinda gave me the courage to post, knowing i'm not alone out there! aim was to put it all in one place and make it kinda guidish like thisisme8's OP is, and since i this thread i put it here as an alternative, rather than create a new one.

I'm doing this run with a similar build to yours using the Scim and Inferno Ammo.  I still use Squad Cryo over Reave, just because I love it so much...  

The Collector Ship platform battle with the Scim was interesting for me since I usually pack the Claymore for that section.  Found that the absolute easiest method to get through that is to lob a grenade first, Charge one without shields to knock him off, change to the shotgun (in cover if available), Charge the next while I direct my squadmates to take out the Collector General or any other Drones running around.  They tend to stay in little groups so the one grenade does a good job of stripping their Barriers and knocking them down.
That, of course, makes the Preatorian fight a little tougher, but if you can keep your Squad focused on him and make sure the other Collectors stay alive, you can use them to quickly get to the other side of the room when the Preatorian gets close enough for his Biotic cheapshots.
Not the most Vanguardish way of doing things, but definitely was the easiest.  And fast too.  Oh, and Warp Ammo isn't nearly as good as Inferno Ammo there.  The damage to their Barriers was unnoticeable, but Inferno's ability to make them flinch (although much less than humans would) is a winner.  Well, vs. all but the General, he doesn't flinch.

[_Dannok1234]

You wouldn't have to reload so much I suppose, and for the bubble part you'd have a bit more powerful weapon. Here's the first part of it with scimitar.

(edit: it's a bit clumsy tho' and slow due to frame rate issues, it's easy to do better)

oh and Kurupt87, it was an excellent summary of whats been happening in this thread. My earlier comment was meant to be positive I failed

Modifié par Dannok1234, 11 février 2010 - 03:18 .