2583 réponses à ce sujet

[Kronner]

No, actually the Assault Mastery training makes all the difference (Champion has the lowest cooldowns), it is the -20% biotic cooldown upgrade that does not affect Charge.

[sinosleep]

Khuutra wrote...

Wait, are you guys saying there's not really an effective difference in cooldown between Champion versus having no points in Assault Mastery at all when it comes to Charge? I find that really hard to believe. Charge feels faster than it did at the beginning.

Maybe I'm conditioning myself to experience that, though. I won't argue with you guys and your fancy computer hardware, but... dang. That definitely puts a damper on how I looked at the power.

Well it IS technically faster, but there's not much difference between 5.2 and 4.9 seconds on cool down. I guess it really depends on how often you use your other powers since other biotic powers are effected properly.

[edit here] Crap, I misread your post, I thought you were asking between champion and destroyer as opposed to champion and nothing at all. Putting no points in your passive would be a mistake. Not just from a gameplay standpoint but from a dialogue one as well as you would lose a TON of renegade/paragon points.

The nearly full second difference between the 4.9 of champion bonus and the 5.7 of no passive at all is pretty big.

Modifié par sinosleep, 31 août 2010 - 09:30 .

[Khuutra]

All right, I'll keep that in mind. I would continue taking Champion regardless because I'm kind of a dialogue junkie, but knowing that it's worthwhile is good.



The whole thing about the Biotic Cooldown upgrade not affecting Charge is kind of odd, though I will agree that if it did then Charge would probably be overpowered.

[sinosleep]

I'd have to agree. You'd be hard pressed to find yourself in a situation in which full shields every 3.7 seconds would wind up with anything other than you positively cake walking all of the game's content.

[Khuutra]

Is it really full shields, or just full base? My shield bar only fills up to about half whenever I use Heavy Charge.



Actually on that note, could the time dilation from Heavy Charge be affecting your cooldown calculations?

[sinosleep]

Khuutra wrote...

Is it really full shields, or just full base? My shield bar only fills up to about half whenever I use Heavy Charge.

Actually on that note, could the time dilation from Heavy Charge be affecting your cooldown calculations?

Hadn't thought of that, will test with area charge right now.

[Kronner]

Heavy Charge gives you 100% of your BASE shields back (250 shields). Area gives you 187.

[sinosleep]

No real difference. Time of 4.867 with area charge.

[Khuutra]

Thanks Kronner.

And mystery solved, I guess. Charge just isn't treated to the biotic cooldown bonus, and it's probably for the sake of balance. Heard it here first, folks: Vanguard is thiiiiiis far from being overpowered

Modifié par Khuutra, 31 août 2010 - 12:02 .

[Mr_Raider]

Khuutra wrote...

Thanks Kronner.

And mystery solved, I guess. Charge just isn't treated to the biotic cooldown bonus, and it's probably for the sake of balance. Heard it here first, folks: Vanguard is thiiiiiis far from being overpowered

But tech cooldown works for assault armor? That's pretty overpowered too.

[Kronner]

Well, Sentinel's Armor is overpowered, but if we could Charge every 3.6 seconds (which would be the case if you were Champion and Archon Visor and biotic cooldown upgrade actually worked), I do not think it would be possible to die at all. Not even YMIR mech would kill you if you could Charge that often.

Modifié par Kronner, 31 août 2010 - 03:26 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Maybe this has been mentioned before, but just a few thoughts about Charge and what it should have been...



- Option 1: Since it’s a biotic power, warp ammo’s bonus should be applied during the short interval during the initial impact. I have yet warp ammo to confirm this in the game, but judging by all the tips I’ve read, no one has mentioned using warp ammo in conjunction with charge.



- Option 2: Its effect is concussive damage, so Charge is really concussive shot, the only technical difference is that you being a giant bullet. If so, it should do damage to barriers the same way.



- Option 3: A moderate area damage should have been a default feature in the same way as Tech Armor, with increasing radius as you upgrade, and Area Charge should have a much more massive concussion radius.



- Option 4: Damage reduction should be applied in the same way as ARush.



I think if Charge would be better if any ONE of those features were added without breaking game balance, NOT ALL. The way Charge works right now seems like a short-sighted design. One of the factors I personally use to measure ineffectiveness of skills and gameplay in Mass Effect is counting how many times a typical player uses the power wheel on insanity. The more you use on the power wheel, the more you are getting into trouble. I’ve played Soldier, Infiltrator, Adept, Sentinel, and for those classes I eventually end up using hotkeys and hardly paused. But the Vanguard on insanity a complete micromanagement hell. You can’t simply press Y to charge a random enemy, and most of the time there are too many of them bunched together in your sights to the right target in real time.



Overall, when I compare class powers side-by-side, I find Charge is the weirdest. Adrenaline Rush is not even really a power; it’s a combination of physical and mental training. Tech Armor is just technology. But Charge is supposed to be a biotic power far more advanced than what normal evolution and technology can provide, and yet it sucks more than the other two? Does that make any sense?

[Kronner]

I never pause when playing Vanguard (unless I want to switch to heavy pistol or something). Charge does not suck, it is simply awesome.

[cihimi]

You do not charge without surveying your surroundings and estimating enemy strength and position. If you just charge because you want to, then you're not playing at optimal level. It takes a bit of strategic thinking when playing Vanguard.

[Khuutra]

Tony Gunslinger, you're making the mistake of taking you experiences and extrapolating them as typical for everyone. Believe me, they're not.

[Mr_Raider]

Kronner wrote...

I never pause when playing Vanguard (unless I want to switch to heavy pistol or something). Charge does not suck, it is simply awesome.

I pause the instant charge hits. Let's you line up a head shot!

[Kronner]

Mr_Raider wrote...

I pause the instant charge hits. Let's you line up a head shot!

Well, that would simply break the game flow for me. Besides, with Claymore, who cares about headshot

[Glory71]

cihimi wrote...

You do not charge without surveying your surroundings and estimating enemy strength and position. If you just charge because you want to, then you're not playing at optimal level. It takes a bit of strategic thinking when playing Vanguard.

Amen! The very reason why I like the Vanguard class. It is not just the charge power (which is so cool than adrenaline rush in my opinion - as I am the one that gets the rush not my character...lol) but simply because of the pure sense of the challenge it offers and the satisfaction it brings after. One needs to be aware. Know before actually committing because once you hit that charge button...you are committed. It is like riding your motorcyle. You don't just look 10 or 20 feet ahead of you. You look beyond that...a mile even if you can see it...AND trying to analyze and gauge what your fellow motorist will do.

I read someone mentioned about pausing. I think die hard followers of this class will rarely hit pause if at all. For me, I simply don't as it breaks my flow.

Modifié par Glory71, 31 août 2010 - 10:08 .

[Freakaz0idx]

Did Sinosleep post the cooldown difference of charge between Champion and Destroyer? Maybe I overlooked something. I've never tried Destroyer, maybe I should if the cooldown difference isn't big.

Modifié par Freakaz0idx, 01 septembre 2010 - 03:45 .

[Kronner]

Freakaz0idx wrote...

Did Sinosleep post the cooldown difference of charge between Champion and Destroyer? Maybe I overlooked something. I've never tried Destroyer, maybe I should if the cooldown difference isn't big.

Destroyer is 5.272 - 5.305s; Champion is 0.3-0.4s faster. I have been playing around with Destroyer and I love it. Now I would take Champion only for the extra Paragon/Renegade points.The extra Champion survavibility is not really needed in most cases.

Modifié par Kronner, 01 septembre 2010 - 06:39 .

[sinosleep]

Ok here's all the data in one post.

With regard to shockwave it appears that all is working as it should be other than the archon visor. It has a 6 second cool down which is affected in the following ways by the following powers and items

shockwave CD no visor 0 vanguard passive

4.684 (20% research CD reduction from 6 second CD default in effect)

shockwave CD visor 0 vanguard passive

4.7 (20% research CD reduction from 6 second CD default in effect)

shockwave CD no visor champion vanguard passive

3.8 (15% vanguard passive CD reduction in affect in concert with 20% research CD reduction)

37% cool down reduction!! Slightly higher than the 35% expected but a few percentage points here and there is to be expected.

From those numbers you can see that the visor has no affect, that the 20% research cool down has an affect, and that the champion evolution of the vanguard passive has an affect. With charge though it's a different story

I did four passes but for brevity I'll only post the one as there were only very minor differences in times

heavy charge with 0 point in vanguard passive

5.733

That's only a 5% reduction CD time from 6 seconds instead of the 20% CD I should be getting from bio upgrades.

heavy charge with champion vanguard passive

4.934

That brings it up to 19% cool down reduction, which is pretty close to the 15% from the passive and 5% that the research is giving off

Area charge with champion vanguard passive

4.867

heavy charge with destroyer vanguard passive

5.2

That brings it to 14% which is to be expected since destroyer is 6% less CD reduction than champion.



And that's all the relevant data.

As for switching back from champion to destroyer well that's really still up to the player. We knew the math made for a pretty tiny difference between the two a LONG time ago as this post indicates from page 11, 7 months ago

Self Controll wrote...

Why are people so against destroyer? Its 10,5% from the bonus to power when using tungsten and 6% to weapon damage. So 16,5% more damage overall, although part of it only work vs armor/health. Is this really so little that champion is DEF better? its 0.27 sec faster cooldown.
16,5% dont sound like a huge deal to me, but it should matter?

But if we've all improved enough to not think that those few 10ths of a second are worth it any more than it's all gravy. I only bring that up to show any one following this thread that the decision to switch back to destroyer shouldn't be made in light of the fact that it appears the CD reduction on charge isn't applied the same way as other biotic powers.It's the same decision it's always been.

Personally though I AM going to go back to destroyer just cause I haven't played around with it in AGES. My very first vanguard playthrough I used destroyer (i.e. before I started making vids, I had actually already beaten the game once with a female vanguard) and I've pretty much not used it since. So maybe it'll speed things up with the evi a bit who knows.

Modifié par sinosleep, 02 septembre 2010 - 06:04 .

[mozez101]

Is the Destroyers weapon damage increase of 6% and power damage increase of 15% noticeable?

[mozez101]

I have been thinking regarding the cooldown on charge. Have you guys been using Heavy Charge when timing the cooldowns? Heavy Charge has a slow-motion mechanic for about 1 sec and since your in slow-motion ,which I am assuming is a 50% time dialation, wouldn't the cooldown take about 0.5 sec longer? While you in that slow-motion for about 1 sec the cooldown is actually only 0.5 sec done when the slow-motion is over. Yes, no?

Modifié par mozez101, 02 septembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[sinosleep]

Yup I tested area charge as well, came in at essentially the same rate. 4.89x instead of 4.9.

[Kronner]

mozez101 wrote...

Is the Destroyers weapon damage increase of 6% and power damage increase of 15% noticeable?

Against heavily armored guys (Scions, YMIR Mechs, Harbinger), yes.