2583 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr_Raider]

Omega-202 wrote...

From a skimming of the past 10 pages or so, it seems that reviews for a Mattock Vanguard are pretty decent.

I'm up to my 5 (or 6th, I lose count) run on the Collector Ship and I've yet to choose AR since the Firepower pack came out.

I've done Vindicator, Claymore, Viper (and some Incisor) Vanguard runs, but I've yet to play with the Mattock.

What is everyone's opinion on hulking rifle? Much better than the Viper?

I'm debating whether its worth loading up an old AR save and running some missions with the Mattock before choosing for my newest run. Last two runs, I've fallen in love with the Viper so its going to be tough for me to give up that option.

Doesn't matter. I found my AR to be my third or fourth option. For day to day use, I still use the shotgun. For rapid suppressive fire or tearing down shields at mid range, the Tempest (if you have it) or locust is fine. Since I use the eviscerator as my main gun, even mid range is covered, For heavily armored enemies the Carnifex is just fine, and after switching to the Phalanx I can even snipe with my Pistol.

The Viper does more damage and has less ammo. The mattock doesn't get a scope. Neither are automatic fire.

Contrary to what people say, I found the Viper scope to be an asset for caster classes. It can help you place your powers accurately on enemies at range.

[Omega-202]

Well, I went with another round of Viper after going back and running the Overlord missions on my completed AR Vanguard with the Mattock.



The Mattock is nice, but as Mr. Raider said, its redundant. It brings nothing new to the table.



For most combat, the Evi does its job. For mid range combat/shield busting, the Locust/Tempest cover it and for armor stripping/long range work, the Carnifex/Phalanx work well. The only thing I find missing is the ability to attack from EXTREME range. Viper allows that, Mattock doesn't.



I genuinely think the Mattock is the better gun, but it doesn't fill the role I need filled.

[sinosleep]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Doesn't matter. I found my AR to be my third or fourth option. For day to day use, I still use the shotgun. For rapid suppressive fire or tearing down shields at mid range, the Tempest (if you have it) or locust is fine. Since I use the eviscerator as my main gun, even mid range is covered, For heavily armored enemies the Carnifex is just fine, and after switching to the Phalanx I can even snipe with my Pistol.

The Viper does more damage and has less ammo. The mattock doesn't get a scope. Neither are automatic fire.

Contrary to what people say, I found the Viper scope to be an asset for caster classes. It can help you place your powers accurately on enemies at range.

Here's the thing though, while other weapons may be "fine" at what the mattock does, the mattock is "spectacular" at what the mattock does. And it saves you upgrade money as well as allowing you to min/max better. Yes, you can use the evi at midrange, but the mattock would positively wreck it at that range. Yes, you can use the pistol on armor, the mattock positively wrecks it at killing armor. The only comparison that's truly valid is the viper/mattock one and that's also the only comparison that doesn't result in spending more money on research and cost you time to max out.

When I pick up the mattock I essentially replace both sniper rifles and handguns. I don't have to upgrade either of them any more cause I roll with with a squad that doesn't use them any way. It makes it so that I have access that much quicker to 5/5 AR and SG upgrades since I'm not wasting money on buying the others or wasting time doing missions that don't give me the upgrades I actually use. I just perform my missions in order of upgrade and have my guns maxed out before I know it. 90% of what I do is still charge and shotgun, but in those situations where it's not I much prefer the mattock than having to swap around 4 different weapons. To each their own I suppose though.

Modifié par sinosleep, 04 septembre 2010 - 06:35 .

[mozez101]

Do you guys think that Bioware is going to patch the cooldown issues with Charge? If they do, that will be really awesome.

[Kronner]

I think it is not a bug and that Charge does not benefit from the biotic CD upgrade on purpose, if we could Charge that often then the game would be broken. Vanguards are already killing machines, but fortunately we can still die if we screw up, which is what makes it fun (for me). They should patch the Archon Visor though considering it is a paid DLC that does nothing .

Modifié par Kronner, 04 septembre 2010 - 07:15 .

[Khuutra]

I'm doing an Adept runthrough at the moment, but I'm liking the Mattock a lot. I can think of only two or three situations (like both Praetorian fights) where I'd use it over a shotgun, but it would be worth having at that time.

[Mr_Raider]

sinosleep wrote...

Here's the thing though, while other weapons may be "fine" at what the mattock does, the mattock is "spectacular" at what the mattock does. And it saves you upgrade money as well as allowing you to min/max better. Yes, you can use the evi at midrange, but the mattock would positively wreck it at that range. Yes, you can use the pistol on armor, the mattock positively wrecks it at killing armor. The only comparison that's truly valid is the viper/mattock one and that's also the only comparison that doesn't result in spending more money on research and cost you time to max out.  

Not sure it saves money, since you can't get it until the collector ship which is more than halfway through the game. Until then, I'm using pistols a lot to kill gunships and YMIRs, so I tend to still upgrade my pistol.


Is the Mattock better at stripping armor? The Carnifex and Phalanx have better per shot damage than the Mattock, and get a 50% armor penetration bonus, and a further 50% bonus with the AP upgrade. The mattock only gets 30 + 25.

[sinosleep]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Not sure it saves money, since you can't get it until the collector ship which is more than halfway through the game. Until then, I'm using pistols a lot to kill gunships and YMIRs, so I tend to still upgrade my pistol.

Is the Mattock better at stripping armor? The Carnifex and Phalanx have better per shot damage than the Mattock, and get a 50% armor penetration bonus, and a further 50% bonus with the AP upgrade. The mattock only gets 30 + 25.

I consider the collector ship to be the half way point of the game. I know you can get to it before having even recruited the entirety of your party or having done all the loyalty missions of those you did recruit. There's still a fair amount of content post collector ship. The money saving portion I guess depends on how you play through the game. I always play through missions depending on the order in which I want to get my upgrades. Since I always plan on replacing the pistol with either a sniper rifle or assault rifle I never do missions that include pistol upgrades until I have no choice but to do them. I go out of my way to get either biotic or tech upgrades, then primary and secondary weapons. Then I do whatever missions are left over.

And while the carnifex may do more per shot, you I can fire off around 6 shots per second with it. I haven't done any formal testing (I'd have to find a save where the upgrades are equal (which is going to be a pain cause I NEVER upgrade my pistols early) but based on battles with YMIR mechs, Harbinger and Scions I can say with confidence you can strip armor quicker with the mattock than with the pistol.

Modifié par sinosleep, 04 septembre 2010 - 02:14 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

I ran through my Mattock Vanguard on NG+ and I find both plus and minuses. Sometimes I wish I had the Claymore from the beginning to Horizon, but the Mattock helped in ways the Claymore couldn't. I only reserve the Mattock for harder enemies like Krogans and YMIRs from the distance to strip down faster and then switch to Scimitar/Evi for a charge, and I pretty much focused on getting AR/SG/SMG upgrades. With Zaeed's DLC you can get 3 AR upgrades before Horzon, well before you can get 3 upgrades on SMG and SG, so that's a big plus. After Horizon, the Mattock slowly takes a backseat to Locust/Evi/Scimitar, but for handling bosses it's still the preferred choice over heavy pistols. The occassional Phalanx was nice but only served as an absolute backup, and since money is tight, getting upgrades for pistols were my last priority since I already upgraded AR much further along. Locust and Mattock can be redundant, and sometimes I have trouble deciding which weapon to enter. Since I play on the Xbox, I can only quick-switch 2 weapons, so by default I usually go for the SMG/SG combo and use the power wheel to switch to Mattock, which is the only minor negative thing about using more than 3 weapons in general. As for Viper vs. Mattock, I personally don't like the scope showing up when using my powers while behind cover, and I prefer to use shockwave/reave/pull and fire my weapon in volley, and the sniper scope often makes it hard to do that when the enemy is too close.

[Mr_Raider]

PC can only switch two weapons with x button. The mouse wheel is crap shoot as to what weapon will show up in your hand. You may finish a charge find out you have the cain in your hands.

Modifié par Mr_Raider, 04 septembre 2010 - 03:01 .

[sinosleep]

The mouse wheel isn't random, granted it's not the same order for every class, and it gets messed up when you pick up a new weapon (go to a weapon locker to reset it) but it does sort through the same weapons every time.

p.s. I'm in the middle of testing the handguns against the ARs. Found a save at the crates missions with 4/5 ar and 1/5 pistol, did thane's loyalty, bought the 2 from the stores, and finished jacob's mission to get to 4/5.

Modifié par sinosleep, 04 septembre 2010 - 03:09 .

[sinosleep]

Here are the numbers I got. Facing YMIR mech on the crate mission. I can't get them to shoot or not shoot at the same rate so I just timed the gaps between when the first shot was fired (frame at which ammo count changes) to the time the last shot was fired before having to duck. Video hasn't been edited or uploaded yet but it can be if the people want it.

carnifex 4/5 upgrades

first shot fired at

7.283 - 8.067 .784
9.367 -10.233 .866
16.650 - 8.83 2.18
21.833 - 23.033 1.2
24.217 - 24.567 .433
27.583 .433

Total time spent firing 5.896
Real world time to take down armor 20.3 

Mattock 4/5 upgrades

first shot fired at

27.783 - 30.150 2.367
32.900 - 35.317 2.417
40.250 - 41.483 1.233

Total time spent firing = 6.017
real world time 13.7

Turns out I was wrong and that by the slightest of margins the pistol beat out the mattock. With that said however, I don't know if it was the staggering effect or what, but I sure did have to duck a lot less when the mattock was out. The gap between the two real world times was pretty large with the the Mattock coming in at nearly 14 seconds and the carnifex coming in at 20 seconds and change.

Either way, for my purposes, the mattock would still win out over all. Like I said, I tend to wind up with AR and shotgun upgrades long before I wind up with the pistol ones.That and well, it cuts down my weapon switching to two. Shotty or Mattock and in very rare cases the heavy weapon makes an appearance.

[edit here] forgot to mention which pistol i was using
[edit again] thought it would be useful to add the real world time as well.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 septembre 2010 - 01:28 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Thanks for the testing, it definately adds some perspective to pistols. They do have that random critical bonus going for them.

sinosleep wrote...

pistol 4/5 upgrades

first shot fired at

7.283 - 8.067 .784
9.367 -10.233 .866
16.650 - 8.83 2.18
21.833 - 23.033 1.2
24.217 - 24.567 .433
27.583 .433

Total time spent firing 5.896

Mattock 4/5 upgrades

first shot fired at

27.783 - 30.150 2.367
32.900 - 35.317 2.417
40.250 - 41.483 1.233

Total time spent firing = 6.017

Does the above mean you had to get out of cover 6 times with the pistol, and 3 times with the Mattock? Also, which pistol did you use? Edit: ps I also find it interesting that you've spent roughly 3x longer out of cover with the Mattock than you did with the pistol.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[sinosleep]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Thanks for the testing, it definately adds some perspective to pistols. They do have that random critical bonus going for them.

Does the above mean you had to get out of cover 6 times with the pistol, and 3 times with the Mattock? Also, which pistol did you use? Edit: ps I also find it interesting that you've spent roughly 3x longer out of cover with the Mattock than you did with the pistol.

Magazine size has a lot to do with it. I think the carnifex only has an 8 round magazine, where as the mattock has 16.

Modifié par sinosleep, 04 septembre 2010 - 05:02 .

[Adhin]

M-6 Carnifax: 6, 18 extra (24 total, 3 reloads) - 85.4 DMG - 145 RPM (512.4 DMG in 2.48 seconds)

M-5 Phalanx: 6, 24 extra (30 total, 4 reloads) - 109.8 DMG - 80 RPM (658.8 DMG in 4.5 seconds)

M-96 Mattock: 16 rounds, 64 extra (80 total, 4 reloads) - 50.4 DMG - 750 RPM (806.4 DMG in 1.28 seconds)

So if we round up and assume you don't keep that constant click-rate your looking at a full Mattock clip in 2 seconds. It does less dmg per shot but you can empty it rather quickly and has a good clip size for the style of weapon it is. That's all base dmg though, not counting the bonus dmg from upgrades and so forth. Pistols end up being 1024.8 and 1317.6 vs the mattocks 1249.92. So overall there very comparible 'per clip' but the Mattock wins on pure Speed if you ask me, Plus its got 45% vs barrier/shields the other 2 don't have. Sino's ingame testing was most likely based off time spend behind cover and the like.


Now that all aside I wanna say I've never been a big fan of the cryofreeze ammo (or any ammo mods, mostly cause I don't like the 'floating' ammo icon when you activate ethem). But after reading through here, and specifically your more recent play through (I think) Sinosleep I decided to give it a try. Gadda say I love it - besides just working REALLY WELL with squad, the whiter graphic and more angular look of the icon just kinda blends in with the guns better.

Thats kinda a silly reason to use something but oh well. My current setup which has been working great for me uses Area Charge though which most don't seem to find a good reason, if anyone wants to test out my reasons for it see what they think? Anyways builds basically...

Incendiary: Rank 2
Cryo Ammo: Rank 4 (Squad)
Charge: Rank 4 (Area)
Shockwave: Rank 3
Pull: Rank 1
Assault: Rank 4 (Champion)
(Bonus) Slam: Rank 4 (Heavy)

Area Charge as I was saying most don't seem to like but I've found it oddly easier to stay alive with then using Heavy. I think the reason is rather specifically the AoE hit thing it has going for it. When you charge into someone they stumble back regardless of protection (some units can't be of course). If you charge into a 2-3 enemies with a Heavy Charge, your knocking one back and that 1 second of slow helps you line up a shot but its to short to be TO effective for that and the other enemies are all shooting at you (ones near you). With Area Charge on impact all the guys get that stun animation so they can't shoot you. So generally I find for initial impacks of it I end up taking less direct damage unless you charge into the open with a lot of enemies. But thats just stupid and neither charge really helps you survive that heh.

As for the bonus, I just like slam for no good reason. Most stuff where I'd use an Area Pull I just charge or use Shockwave depending on the situation. I have 1 rank in pull 'cause of leftover points and its A, easier to setup squad-warps, and B it can make a fun combo with Slam.

-edit-
Back to the pistol vs mattoc comparison, fully upgraded of 50% dmg+piercing dmg amd 50% shield, 25% shield/armor (you can get AR to 60% I believe with DLC). Note: DPS doesn't factor in reload times.

Carnifax - in 2.48 sec.
Armor: 1281 (451.05 DPS)
Shield/Barrier/Health: 768.6 (309.91 DPS)
Phalanx - in 4.5 sec.
Armor: 1647 (432.66- DPS)
Shield/Barrier/Health: 988.2 (219.6 DPS)
Mattoc - in 1.28 sec.
Armor: 1653.12 (1291.5 DPS)
Shield/Barrier: 1572.48 (1228.5 DPS)
Health: 1209.6 (945 DPS)

As in can see, in a 'burst' of 1 second Mattoc winds out, given you can fire off them 12.5 rounds that fast.

Modifié par Adhin, 05 septembre 2010 - 03:27 .

[sinosleep]

Adhin wrote...

M-6 Carnifax: 6, 18 extra (24 total, 3 reloads) - 85.4 DMG - 145 RPM (512.4 DMG in 2.48 seconds)

M-5 Phalanx: 6, 24 extra (30 total, 4 reloads) - 109.8 DMG - 80 RPM (658.8 DMG in 4.5 seconds)

M-96 Mattock: 16 rounds, 64 extra (80 total, 4 reloads) - 50.4 DMG - 750 RPM (806.4 DMG in 1.28 seconds)

So if we round up and assume you don't keep that constant click-rate your looking at a full Mattock clip in 2 seconds. It does less dmg per shot but you can empty it rather quickly and has a good clip size for the style of weapon it is. That's all base dmg though, not counting the bonus dmg from upgrades and so forth. Pistols end up being 1024.8 and 1317.6 vs the mattocks 1249.92. So overall there very comparible 'per clip' but the Mattock wins on pure Speed if you ask me, Plus its got 45% vs barrier/shields the other 2 don't have. Sino's ingame testing was most likely based off time spend behind cover and the like.

I specifically said what the time was based on, first shot fired to last shot fired before needing to take cover and then I added all the times up. In the testing world the Carnifex won out by a tiny margin, in the real world times (where I did include time behind cover) the mattock killed it by a good 7 seconds but that could be a large combination of things. Sometimes the mechs fired rockets and other times they didn't, reload times, ducking with 1 left in the chamber and then not reloading while ducking, etc, etc, etc.

The reason I do videos and not hypotheticals is that some weapons are built in ways that frankly aren't possible to do unless you are cheating. The mattock can fire some 16 rounds a seconds theoretically, but I challenge anyone here to take this test

http://www.urban75.com/Mag/java7.html

and come out with 16 per second. Not going to happen.

[edit here] edited to remove snarkiness

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 septembre 2010 - 03:24 .

[Kronner]

Even if it did, you can't click 16 times per second AND aim at the same time.



DPS on paper is nice, but in the game Mattock is far bettter than any pistol. On my latest playthrough I killed the gunship in Samara's RM before it even turned around. Impossible to do with any pistol.

[sinosleep]

That's about the best I can do without being cheesy and holding the mouse in a way that would be unplayable but allow for faster clicking. I got 6.5 clicks a second, and I'm a pretty seasoned PC shooter player. I'm sure others can do better, but no one is approaching 16.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 septembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[sinosleep]

You wanna know what's stupid, when I was doing this test yesterday I was search far and wide for a cheat that would give me infinite health so I could better test the weapons, couldn't find squat. So today I go trying to figure out why gibbed save editor has all the squad members at different levels when they're all supposed to be the same and what do I find on the very first page of google search results? A cheat to run god mode. Sometimes I HATE search engines. Any way, after getting the cheat I went ahead and made and uploaded this new video with the new results.



Here's the vid







Here are the numbers



Carnifex 11.8 seconds



Mattock 11.297 seconds



take into account I missed wide right twice on the second round of mattock shots.

[Mr_Raider]

They are fairly even from what I see. It means you can take the Mattock, it can effectively replace the pistol as a more versatile weapon, and equip the Phalanx for specialty shots.



Or if a class prefers the Viper, then they should keep the Carnifex for stripping armor fast at medium/close range.



This goes to show that the weapons in the DLC pack are not overpowered and quite balanced. It adds flavour to the game, but won't break it.

[sinosleep]

Yeah, the mattock doesn't out right beast it by any means, it's just good if you prefer a simplified weapon choice/upgrading experience.

[Adhin]

Ops...meant Area Charge... And yeah you can't really empty an entire clip in 2 seconds heh. I'm on a 360 so its a bit easier to do a 'weird placement' for some rapid fire but I don't think that ends up being any faster then straight clicking (I got about 65 on that test to). Either case that's the full thing in under 3 seconds which isn't much of a difference. Then again Pistols get that whole random chance at x2 dmg which probably pushes em out even further for that kinda thing. Least your not giving anything up for taking the Mattoc, and it works wonders for a lot of other situations. LIke double-tapping husks to remove there armor for that squad freeze or a shockwave.



and Mr_Raider that's exactly what I do, use Evi and Mattoc and swap to Phalanx if I need or just want to use the pistol for whatever reason. Lazers a bit weird but I seem to get headshots with it rather consistently either way.

[Mr_Raider]

Phalanx is great if some idiot is hiding behind cover and has a shoulder or head sticking out. It also seems to set enemies on fire quite reliably with incendiary ammo. Great for blowing the head off of eclipse heavies.

Also, if you are really up the creak with no ammo on your shot gun, you can charge with phalanx and line up a head shot during your time dilation at point blank range without using the laser sight.

Modifié par Mr_Raider, 05 septembre 2010 - 04:16 .