2583 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

kajtarp wrote...

in my opinion testing with god mode is not the right way to go. what really matters, how those weapons play under real circumstances...

in your test, you waste 2 clips of heavy pistol ammo, and like half of the assault rifle ammo just for one opponent. I'd say thats a luxury. With 40 assault rifle ammo you could kill a dozen of opponents in the game.

also consider you cant only use shotgun for everything in early game, especially before having the extra shotgun rounds upgrade what you cant get before tuchanka, thats like almost 2/3 of the game. smg sucks versus armor, doesnt matter if its shuriken or tempest, and only using shotgun is not really ammo efficient.

With regards to god mode without it there are WAY too many variables. Sometimes Shepard gets staggered some times he doesn't, the mech can be more or less accurate, human error becomes more of an issue due to running into health at bad times (say with a bullet in the chamber) and then forgetting to reload while you're healing. God mode makes it much easier to cut down on variables and provide a proper test.

And about shotguns you couldn't be more wrong. Have you seen any of my old videos? I have NEVER run out of shotgun ammo. Seriously, not once, not at level 5, and not at level 30. And that's using my shotgun almost exclusively. Unless you are trying to use the shotgun from midrange where you aren't taking advantage of the melee damage boost you shoudn't be running out of ammo.

[Adhin]

Yeah I rarely run out of shotgun ammo and when I do its like sinosleep is saying, me being stupid and using the thing at range. Evi helps with that a 'tiny' bit, least alters the effective range of it but always better off changing to something else.



Mr_Raider also agree with that, the Phalanx and Shuriken work great for a charge if your outa shotgun ammo. Though the 1 second of time dilation screws me up for some reason, I find it easier to headshot using Area Charge. Must be something wrong with me.

[Mr_Raider]

The SMG's are actually very good close range weapons. You can empty out a clip in no time, and the repeated hits seem to stagger the enemy. A worthy alternative for close quarters fighting for engineers, adepts and sentinels.

[RamsenC]

 Mattock a better choice than the Viper eh?

*strokes beard*

Might have to break out my AR Vanguard for the new dlc. I wish I could argue weapons with you guys, but I haven't had the time to play <_<

[sinosleep]

RamsenC wrote...

 Mattock a better choice than the Viper eh?

*strokes beard*

Might have to break out my AR Vanguard for the new dlc. I wish I could argue weapons with you guys, but I haven't had the time to play <_<

I'm actually uploading a viper/mattock comparison vid right now.

[Coughee Brotha]

Kronner wrote...

I think it is not a bug and that Charge does not benefit from the biotic CD upgrade on purpose, if we could Charge that often then the game would be broken. Vanguards are already killing machines, but fortunately we can still die if we screw up, which is what makes it fun (for me). They should patch the Archon Visor though considering it is a paid DLC that does nothing .

wait... charge doesnt benefit from the cooldown upgrade? Is there somewhere I can read more about this

[sinosleep]

whoops

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 septembre 2010 - 01:46 .

[sinosleep]

Coughee Brotha wrote...
wait...
charge doesnt benefit from the cooldown upgrade? Is there somewhere I
can read more about this

From page 95

sinosleep wrote...

Ok here's all the data in one post.

With regard to shockwave it appears that all is working as it should be other than the archon visor. It has a 6 second cool down which is affected in the following ways by the following powers and items

shockwave CD no visor 0 vanguard passive

4.684 (20% research CD reduction from 6 second CD default in effect)

shockwave CD visor 0 vanguard passive

4.7 (20% research CD reduction from 6 second CD default in effect)

shockwave CD no visor champion vanguard passive

3.8 (15% vanguard passive CD reduction in affect in concert with 20% research CD reduction)

37% cool down reduction!! Slightly higher than the 35% expected but a few percentage points here and there is to be expected.

From those numbers you can see that the visor has no affect, that the 20% research cool down has an affect, and that the champion evolution of the vanguard passive has an affect. With charge though it's a different story

I did four passes but for brevity I'll only post the one as there were only very minor differences in times

heavy charge with 0 point in vanguard passive

5.733

That's only a 5% reduction CD time from 6 seconds instead of the 20% CD I should be getting from bio upgrades.

heavy charge with champion vanguard passive

4.934

That brings it up to 19% cool down reduction, which is pretty close to the 15% from the passive and 5% that the research is giving off

Area charge with champion vanguard passive

4.867

heavy charge with destroyer vanguard passive

5.2

That brings it to 14% which is to be expected since destroyer is 6% less CD reduction than champion.



And that's all the relevant data.

As for switching back from champion to destroyer well that's really still up to the player. We knew the math made for a pretty tiny difference between the two a LONG time ago as this post indicates from page 11, 7 months ago

Self Controll wrote...

Why are people so against destroyer? Its 10,5% from the bonus to power when using tungsten and 6% to weapon damage. So 16,5% more damage overall, although part of it only work vs armor/health. Is this really so little that champion is DEF better? its 0.27 sec faster cooldown.
16,5% dont sound like a huge deal to me, but it should matter?

But if we've all improved enough to not think that those few 10ths of a second are worth it any more than it's all gravy. I only bring that up to show any one following this thread that the decision to switch back to destroyer shouldn't be made in light of the fact that it appears the CD reduction on charge isn't applied the same way as other biotic powers.It's the same decision it's always been.

Personally though I AM going to go back to destroyer just cause I haven't played around with it in AGES. My very first vanguard playthrough I used destroyer (i.e. before I started making vids, I had actually already beaten the game once with a female vanguard) and I've pretty much not used it since. So maybe it'll speed things up with the evi a bit who knows.

Mattock vs Viper vid is also up.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 septembre 2010 - 01:46 .

[RamsenC]

Looks like Viper is still better for my purposes. Mattock Sentinel sounds like good times though.

[Coughee Brotha]

sinosleep wrote...

Coughee Brotha wrote...
wait...
charge doesnt benefit from the cooldown upgrade? Is there somewhere I
can read more about this

From page 95

sinosleep wrote...

Ok here's all the data in one post.

With regard to shockwave it appears that all is working as it should be other than the archon visor. It has a 6 second cool down which is affected in the following ways by the following powers and items

shockwave CD no visor 0 vanguard passive

4.684 (20% research CD reduction from 6 second CD default in effect)

shockwave CD visor 0 vanguard passive

4.7 (20% research CD reduction from 6 second CD default in effect)

shockwave CD no visor champion vanguard passive

3.8 (15% vanguard passive CD reduction in affect in concert with 20% research CD reduction)

37% cool down reduction!! Slightly higher than the 35% expected but a few percentage points here and there is to be expected.

From those numbers you can see that the visor has no affect, that the 20% research cool down has an affect, and that the champion evolution of the vanguard passive has an affect. With charge though it's a different story

I did four passes but for brevity I'll only post the one as there were only very minor differences in times

heavy charge with 0 point in vanguard passive

5.733

That's only a 5% reduction CD time from 6 seconds instead of the 20% CD I should be getting from bio upgrades.

heavy charge with champion vanguard passive

4.934

That brings it up to 19% cool down reduction, which is pretty close to the 15% from the passive and 5% that the research is giving off

Area charge with champion vanguard passive

4.867

heavy charge with destroyer vanguard passive

5.2

That brings it to 14% which is to be expected since destroyer is 6% less CD reduction than champion.



And that's all the relevant data.

As for switching back from champion to destroyer well that's really still up to the player. We knew the math made for a pretty tiny difference between the two a LONG time ago as this post indicates from page 11, 7 months ago

Self Controll wrote...

Why are people so against destroyer? Its 10,5% from the bonus to power when using tungsten and 6% to weapon damage. So 16,5% more damage overall, although part of it only work vs armor/health. Is this really so little that champion is DEF better? its 0.27 sec faster cooldown.
16,5% dont sound like a huge deal to me, but it should matter?

But if we've all improved enough to not think that those few 10ths of a second are worth it any more than it's all gravy. I only bring that up to show any one following this thread that the decision to switch back to destroyer shouldn't be made in light of the fact that it appears the CD reduction on charge isn't applied the same way as other biotic powers.It's the same decision it's always been.

Personally though I AM going to go back to destroyer just cause I haven't played around with it in AGES. My very first vanguard playthrough I used destroyer (i.e. before I started making vids, I had actually already beaten the game once with a female vanguard) and I've pretty much not used it since. So maybe it'll speed things up with the evi a bit who knows.

Mattock vs Viper vid is also up.

Thanks that's good to know though I guess it wouldn't change things too much since I never noticed.  I wander how I would be if the biotic CD was actually 20%

[Adhin]

Well straight math seems to have some issues once frame rates cut into it but. Not counting that or time dilation currently its 15% cooldown max via champion, that's 5.1 second. With the +20% (so 35%) you'd have a 3.9 second cooldown, basically 1 second shaved off. Which means more constant Shield healing and the like, by the time you Shot + melee'd 1 guy you'd basically be ready to charge again. Currently your stuck waiting 1-2 seconds after you've fired off a shot.

[Kronner]

About Area Charge (I think Adhin posted his build) -
IMHO:
It is worse choice than Heavy Charge. Why? Heavy Charge already has good enough AoE (1.2m) and what makes it better is the time dilatation on impact, not only because it allows you to line up a perfect headshot (which are useless with Claymore anyways), but because it gives you extra time when enemies do not fire at you (all, not just in that radius). The "stagger" effect from Area Charge is so minor it makes no difference. If you have Inferno Ammo with its 3m radius, Area Charge is definitely worse on Insanity. Just my experience though.

Modifié par Kronner, 07 septembre 2010 - 12:23 .

[Khuutra]

Huh.



So would another Shotgun Upgrade change tactics at all?

[Kronner]

Khuutra wrote...

Huh.

So would another Shotgun Upgrade change tactics at all?

Did you get one from LOTSB or what? I doubt that, one shotgun upgrade is worth less than Miranda in squad when it comes to damage.

[sinosleep]

Kronner wrote...

Did you get one from LOTSB or what? I doubt that, one shotgun upgrade is worth less than Miranda in squad when it comes to damage.

This is driving me insane, it's till not available for PC.

[Khuutra]

Yeah. You get it after the mission. I think you have to leave the area, do a couple of Assignments, then come back to the Delivery Pickup (you'll know what I mean). I got shotgun and minerals. One more assignment, just minerals. Two more assignments after that, minerals and SMG damage. Trying to figure out if there's a system here but I am quickly running out of Assignments to do.

[sinosleep]

IT'S FINALLY FLIPPIN AVAILABLE!!! Downloading now!

[Kronner]

Khuutra wrote...

Yeah. You get it after the mission. I think you have to leave the area, do a couple of Assignments, then come back to the Delivery Pickup (you'll know what I mean). I got shotgun and minerals. One more assignment, just minerals. Two more assignments after that, minerals and SMG damage. Trying to figure out if there's a system here but I am quickly running out of Assignments to do.

So why would they recommend doing this post-SM? Really weird. And if it is random upgrades..well that would be a joke IMHO.

Modifié par Kronner, 07 septembre 2010 - 05:30 .

[sinosleep]

Kronner wrote...

Khuutra wrote...

Yeah. You get it after the mission. I think you have to leave the area, do a couple of Assignments, then come back to the Delivery Pickup (you'll know what I mean). I got shotgun and minerals. One more assignment, just minerals. Two more assignments after that, minerals and SMG damage. Trying to figure out if there's a system here but I am quickly running out of Assignments to do.

So why would they recommend doing this post-SM? Really weird. And if it is random upgrades..well that would be a joke IMHO.

Beats me man. My only Liara love interest character is a couple of missions post collector ship so it seems like a good spot.

[Khuutra]

Well, it could also be based on the frequency of weapon usage, or which ones are already 5/5. I don't know. It'll be a while before we have it all figured out.

[Adhin]

Yeah I don't agree at all Kronner but its a prefrense thing in either case. All I was trying to get across was Area Charge isn't worthless. It's like the shotgun choices they're all (more or less) worth using given what you like the feel of. Heavy Charge dilation doesn't mesh with me and the stun length of charge impact is far more useful then you give it credit for. It's Anytime your hit with a big rocket and shep has to stand out in the open for a second or 3 is because of that exact same animation. It takes a danm good amount of time to play through.

Inferno rounds only causes the 'oh **** im on fire' animation if they're already in HP when you shoot them. Unlike Cryo for instance that'll start a freeze process as long as some of the dmg bleeds into HP. And the effect on charge hits regardless of layers of defense. I'd also like to point out 3 Meters is bigger then most folks realize. That's the distance for x2 dmg too oddly enough, which is further away then actual melee range, melee range is litterally only about 1 meter (or that 1.2 your thinking of with charges base impact AoE).

Something I've realized over the years besides just people liking one thing over another, often times even if its weaker and it working better for them. People also often just discredit things because they haven't given enough time to try it or look at its merits. Mod I run for another game folks have a tendency to go for high numbers completely ignoring how a skill actually works. Like some basic acceptance brain thought that says bigger is better regardless of function.

That said I do think its kinda irritating Heavy Charge gets 3 boosts to it (+25% shield, +impact force, +dilation) and Area just gets a radius boost. Kinda feel like that impact force should be slapped on Area Charge and not Heavy so its more of brute force vs tank/survivability.

Modifié par Adhin, 07 septembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[Adhin]

Crap double post.

Modifié par Adhin, 07 septembre 2010 - 08:22 .

[Kronner]

Inferno works thorugh defenses..you hit (kill) one guy and everyone in 3m radius is on fire even if they still have shields/armor/barrier.

Check my signature - captured mining facility and go to about 1:50 to see what I am talking about.

I did try Area Charge (for several missions) and I have yet to see encounter where it would be beneficial over Heavy Charge, but I would love to hear more about it.

[Adhin]

I knew the impact of Inferno rounds would cause them to lite on fire. didn't realize they'd also get that animation (when shielded), must not of noticed it! However that's a completely different power then what I've been talking about. Looks like your basically using that same reason I like area charge though, or at least its functioning that way. Hit the guy after impact and you get the 3 meters of CC. I still prefer 1 in pull to much to go 4 in Inferno, and Area charge works fine for me.

Most of the beneficial charges using it as an Area tend to involve enemies that're busy rushing out or just spawning I've noticed. Kinda like what you did with your Inferno (sometimes they clump up or get sorta close enough). But if you watch that same sequence your talking about in your video you can see your heavy charge didn't effect the others, and some of em where pretty damn close. They woulda all been knocked into stumble if you had Area Charge. If you time it right could probably hit em with the Inferno just as they come out of it to keep em CC'ed even longer. Though you could do that for a second shot or kill em before its over either way.

Anyways I've also said the dilation screws up my aiming for some reason. I just don't like it -.-

Modifié par Adhin, 07 septembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[Kronner]

Adhin wrote...

I knew the impact of Inferno rounds would cause them to lite on fire. didn't realize they'd also get that animation (when shielded), must not of noticed it! However that's a completely different power then what I've been talking about. Looks like your basically using that same reason I like area charge though, or at least its functioning that way. Hit the guy after impact and you get the 3 meters of CC. I still prefer 1 in pull to much to go 4 in Inferno, and Area charge works fine for me.

Most of the beneficial charges using it as an Area tend to involve enemies that're busy rushing out or just spawning I've noticed. Kinda like what you did with your Inferno (sometimes they clump up or get sorta close enough). But if you watch that same sequence your talking about in your video you can see your heavy charge didn't effect the others, and some of em where pretty damn close. They woulda all been knocked into stumble if you had Area Charge. If you time it right could probably hit em with the Inferno just as they come out of it to keep em CC'ed even longer. Though you could do that for a second shot or kill em before its over either way.

Anyways I've also said the dilation screws up my aiming for some reason. I just don't like it -.-

Hmm, interesting, I tried Area Charge today, and the enemies (Blue Suns) shook it off very quickly. Maybe it cancels out with Inferno? I will try with Warp ammo.