192 réponses à ce sujet

[R0ck3t33r]

Hello all,
I'd like to instigate some conversation about the bombshell that Reapers' shapes are based upon the species they harvest.

I am wondering why the Derelict Reaper is identical to Sovereign. Consider:

It's implied that the Collectors would need to attack Earth in order to have enough humans to complete the human-Reaper. If that's the case, then it's extremely unlikely that they would have had enough of the squid-shaped species to make more than one Sovereign-style Reaper. And even if they did, what are the odds that the Derelict Reaper just happens to be the same kind as Sovereign? The Reapers claim that the "cycle" has repeated countless times. If that's the case, then there HAS to be a bunch of different kinds of Reapers, so it seems like a bit of a coincidence that the only two Reapers that got left this side of Dark Space happened to be identical.

I guess that if BioWare had made the Derelict Reaper a different shape, it would have kind of spoiled the revelation about different Reaper shapes, but still. Seems sloppy, maybe? Also, all of the Reapers in the parting shot of ME2 are very, very similar. More similar, in fact, than humans look compared to, say, Krogans. Do you follow? This shoots down my theory that when multiple species are harvested in the same cycle, they tend to share certain characteristics. In "our" galaxy, for example (with the exception of the hanar and the elcor), all of the species are bipedal. 

More importantly, I have some problems with Vigil's explanation, now that ME2's story has played out:

On Ilos (back in ME1), Vigil said that the Reapers completely wiped out the protheans (and took centuries to do it!). He never said anything about them taking protheans alive (in order to attempt a Prothean-shaped Reaper, as ME2 alludes to, which they apparently failed to build). Seems like this would have been a distinction worth making when Vigil spoke with Shepard.

Anyway - it's the little details like this that make me wonder about how much of the Mass Effect story arc was actually planned in advance. Inconsistencies like this wouldn't throw me quite so badly in a game where story wasn't quite so important. But this is BioWare!

Maybe we'll find out in ME3 that the human-Reaper was the first one to mimick the shape of their victims, and that all of the squid-Reapers are just subtle variations on a "traditional" Reaper shape. I hope. It would explain away most of these inconsistencies, except for Vigil's miscommunication. That one seems kind of unforgivable.

Thoughts?

Modifié par R0ck3t33r, 08 février 2010 - 08:10 .

[The_mango55]

I assume the squid is the original "reaper" species, and the majority would look like that because there were just so many and had an empire that powerful.



How much did vigil actually know about what was happening?



He also says they did take Protheans alive, indoctrinated them and used them to infiltrate holdouts. But he assumed they just left them to die on whatever planet they happened to attack next.

[sodacatkun]

R0ck3t33r wrote...

Hello all,
I'd like to instigate some conversation about the bombshell that Reapers' shapes are based upon the species they harvest.

I am wondering why the Derelict Reaper is identical to Sovereign. Consider:

It's implied that the Collectors would need to attack Earth in order to have enough humans to complete the human-Reaper. If that's the case, then it's extremely unlikely that they would have had enough of the squid-shaped species to make more than one Sovereign-style Reaper. And even if they did, what are the odds that the Derelict Reaper just happens to be the same kind as Sovereign? The Reapers claim that the "cycle" has repeated countless times. If that's the case, then there HAS to be a bunch of different kinds of Reapers, so it seems like a bit of a coincidence that the only two Reapers that got left this side of Dark Space happened to be identical.

I guess that if BioWare had made the Derelict Reaper a different shape, it would have kind of spoiled the revelation about different Reaper shapes, but still. Seems sloppy, maybe? Also, all of the Reapers in the parting shot of ME2 are very, very similar. More similar, in fact, than humans look to, say, Krogans. Do you follow? This shoots down my theory that when multiple species are harvested in the same cycle, they tend to share certain characteristics. In "our" galaxy, for example (with the exception of the hanar and the elcor), all of the species are bipedal. 

More importantly, I have some problems with Vigil's explanation, now that ME2's story has played out:

On Ilos (back in ME1), Vigil said that the Reapers completely wiped out the protheans (and took centuries to do it!). He never said anything about them taking protheans alive (in order to attempt a Prothean-shaped Reaper, as ME2 alludes to, which they apparently failed to build). Seems like this would have been a distinction worth making when Vigil spoke with Shepard.

Anyway - it's the little details like this that make me wonder about how much of the Mass Effect story arc was actually planned in advance. Inconsistencies like this wouldn't throw me quite so badly in a game where story wasn't quite so important. But this is BioWare!

Maybe we'll find out in ME3 that the human-Reaper was the first one to mimick the shape of their victims, and that all of the squid-Reapers are just subtle variations on a "traditional" Reaper shape. I hope. It would explain away most of these inconsistencies, except for Vigil's miscommunication. That one seems kind of unforgivable.

Thoughts?

the reapers did all seem bug like but they did have different shapes and colors to them (mostly black but watch it again and look at different sections to see the different looking ones)


maybe vigil and the like..maybe 5 living protheans didnt know that the reapers had taken hostages to geneticaly alter?

[Giantevilhead]

Species from prior extinction cycled had much higher populations than humans. The Protheans for example, had a population numbering in trillions.



Assuming that Reapers look like the species they're made from, which is highly unlikely, the Reapers we see could have been made from a species that colonized hundreds of thousands of worlds, with each planet having a population of billions.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

remember the human reaper was just a fetus maybe when it becomes fully grown it morphs into the squid shape

[Daerog]

Vigil is a VI and is not omnipresent in the universe, he said what was recorded, but a lot of what he said were assumptions, saying that they all either died or were left to die, how would he know if they were snatched away after Ilos was isolated? Also, he's pretty much stuck where he is and can't really interact with anything outside the station at Ilos. He only knew what the scientists at Ilos came to conclude.



Likely those squid things were the first species to make the reapers, that's why there are more of them. Another possibility is that those are just the shells, and their skeletons are different.... like a Transformer.... wasn't my idea, but I saw it on the forums. Or perhaps they were just experimenting with a new reaper...



They are beyond our understanding... or there is just no good reason and they just are.

[Kordras]

Vigil did say that some of the population was enslaved to help the Reapers hunt down the remaining Protheans.

And about their shape, there was a person on here earlier (can't remember the name sorry >_<) that came up with a theory about the Reapers that might help to explain this. These reapers (Sovereign, Harbinger, the Derelict Reaper, and the countless others you see at the end) could be the original species. Essentially they ascended into a synthetic/organic race that could survive outside even a galaxy's limits. What we see in ME2 is Reapers attempting to ascend humanity; to absorb the species into a Reaper form. I hope I explained it well enough that it's understandable... he did a much better job than I, haha. Also, some of the quotes from Reapers reinforce this, constantly talking about how they are the pinnacle of evolution and humanity's genetic destiny.

[Shady314]

Highly likely that the "squid" part would have eventually been built around the skeleton. EDI compares the Reaper to an embryo. It's final shape could literally be anything.

[1490]

What I'm guessing is that the shape the reaper takes is only what it's "core" is made of.  If you think about it, the "human reaper" is probably only a few hundred feet long, but Sovereign was like a couple kilometers long.  I mean, you wouldn't have any way to "grow" the human skeleton shape to be that big with the proportions it's at right now.  I'm guessing the reapers are somewhat organic at the very core, but then the rest of them is a synthetic shell built around that.   So theoretically, all reapers might start out looking different, but then they build around the core to create their signature squid appearrance.

In any case, we won't know until ME3.

[1490]

1490 wrote...

What I'm guessing is that the shape the reaper takes is only what it's "core" is made of.  If you think about it, the "human reaper" is probably only a few hundred feet long, but Sovereign was like a couple kilometers long.  I mean, you wouldn't have any way to "grow" the human skeleton shape to be that big with the proportions it's at right now.  I'm guessing the reapers are somewhat organic at the very core, but then the rest of them is a synthetic shell built around that.   So theoretically, all reapers might start out looking different, but then they build around the core to create their signature squid appearrance.

In any case, we won't know until ME3.

Beat me to it! lol

[1490]

Shady314 wrote...

Highly likely that the "squid" part would have eventually been built around the skeleton. EDI compares the Reaper to an embryo. It's final shape could literally be anything.

Tried to quote you, ended up quoting myself, haha

[RBKeys]

I wonder if Bioware will just completely drop the ball and make the body for the reaper like a giant mass relay and then have it be like "Because of it's immense destructive power it needed a way to transport itself . . . so they attached it to a mass relay"

[Sigh_Blaise]

I like to believe in the idea that after the humans kicked reaper butt the reapers thought they needed to build a human form in order to defeat them.

[ryder500]

Honestly who gives a **** what the hell they look like. They are Reapers, they look like how the hell they want to look like. Give it a rest.

[Geassguy360]

1490 wrote...

What I'm guessing is that the shape the reaper takes is only what it's "core" is made of.  If you think about it, the "human reaper" is probably only a few hundred feet long, but Sovereign was like a couple kilometers long.  I mean, you wouldn't have any way to "grow" the human skeleton shape to be that big with the proportions it's at right now.  I'm guessing the reapers are somewhat organic at the very core, but then the rest of them is a synthetic shell built around that.   So theoretically, all reapers might start out looking different, but then they build around the core to create their signature squid appearrance.

In any case, we won't know until ME3.

Best explanation I've seen yet.

[Dethateer]

R0ck3t33r wrote...

It's implied that the Collectors would need
to attack Earth in order to have enough humans to complete the
human-Reaper.

Wrong, it's implied (actually flat-out
told) that they need several million colonists to make one. Earth would
have enough humans to make several hundred of those things.

R0ck3t33r
wrote...
If that's the case, then it's extremely unlikely that they
would have had enough of the squid-shaped species to make more than one
Sovereign-style Reaper.

Right, so the Protheans were the
only ones with the galaxy-spanning Empire? Also, I too
trust the exoskeleton theory.

R0ck3t33r wrote...
On Ilos (back in ME1), Vigil said that the Reapers completely wiped out the protheans (and took centuries to do it!). He never said anything about them taking protheans alive (in order to attempt a Prothean-shaped Reaper, as ME2 alludes to, which they apparently failed to build). Seems like this would have been a distinction worth making when Vigil spoke with Shepard.

How the hell would Vigil even know the Reapers took Protheans alive to grind them up/turn them into you-know-what?

[Daerog]

Kordras wrote...
And about their shape, there was a person on here earlier (can't remember the name sorry >_<) that came up with a theory about the Reapers that might help to explain this. These reapers (Sovereign, Harbinger, the Derelict Reaper, and the countless others you see at the end) could be the original species. Essentially they ascended into a synthetic/organic race that could survive outside even a galaxy's limits. What we see in ME2 is Reapers attempting to ascend humanity; to absorb the species into a Reaper form. I hope I explained it well enough that it's understandable... he did a much better job than I, haha. Also, some of the quotes from Reapers reinforce this, constantly talking about how they are the pinnacle of evolution and humanity's genetic destiny.

This makes the most sense, but why humans and not asari? Somehow our DNA is superior or something since they couldn't do it with the Protheans? Which is odd, hopefully explained in ME3.

A collective conscious like that can be seen as superior, and Legion would agree with that, but what would make a species do that willingly? Were they that dead set on being immortal? Would explain their insanity on just harvesting anyone and keeping the universe static and predictable, being immortal would be fun for the first thousand years, but I don't see keeping sane after hundreds of millions of years or however old the reapers are.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 08 février 2010 - 08:17 .

[R0ck3t33r]

ryder500 wrote...

Honestly who gives a **** what the hell they look like. They are Reapers, they look like how the hell they want to look like. Give it a rest.

Your insight is inspiring.

For the rest of you, your feedback is truly thought-provoking. The use of the word "larva" (I think that's the word that's used in-game) is getting me invested in the theory that "baby" Reapers begin their lives based on the harvested species, but over their lifetime eventually grow to take on a more squid-like appearance. This would maintain their squid-shapes while creating subtle variations, like we saw at the end of ME2.

Not bad, team.

[Dethateer]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

This makes the most sense, but why humans and not asari?

Asari didn't kill a Reaper.

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

:-P



Yeah, I'm guessing that either the human Reaper won't look like that from the outside when it's done (it was fairy pint-sized, after all), or the Reapers very infrequently "ascend" a species. Perhaps only when a species puts significant resistance up to it. I think ME3 is going to have the hardest decision in the trilogy: "immortality" for everyone in the galaxy who isn't killed in the war (or at least all humans)... or individuality and self-determination.

[Arijharn]

Sigh_Blaise wrote...

I like to believe in the idea that after the humans kicked reaper butt the reapers thought they needed to build a human form in order to defeat them.

I agree, it would be awesome for my ego to find out that after everything, TIM was right when he said: "I don't know if the Reapers can understand fear. But you beat one, they have to respect that."

[R0ck3t33r]

Additionally, it's worth mentioning that EDI jumps to a pretty weird conclusion: she says that the Reapers failed to create a prothean-shaped Reaper. Why would she jump to that conclusion? At that point, we'd only seen two reapers: Sovereign and the Derelict Reaper.

[Kordras]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Kordras wrote...
And about their shape, there was a person on here earlier (can't remember the name sorry >_<) that came up with a theory about the Reapers that might help to explain this. These reapers (Sovereign, Harbinger, the Derelict Reaper, and the countless others you see at the end) could be the original species. Essentially they ascended into a synthetic/organic race that could survive outside even a galaxy's limits. What we see in ME2 is Reapers attempting to ascend humanity; to absorb the species into a Reaper form. I hope I explained it well enough that it's understandable... he did a much better job than I, haha. Also, some of the quotes from Reapers reinforce this, constantly talking about how they are the pinnacle of evolution and humanity's genetic destiny.

This makes the most sense, but why humans and not asari? Somehow our DNA is superior or something since they couldn't do it with the Protheans? Which is odd, hopefully explained in ME3.

A collective conscious like that can be seen as superior, and Legion would agree with that, but what would make a species do that willingly? Were they that dead set on being immortal? Would explain their insanity on just harvesting anyone and keeping the universe static and predictable, being immortal would be fun for the first thousand years, but I don't see keeping sane after hundreds of millions of years or however old the reapers are.

The DNA thing is hinted at, but I think a lot of has to do with humanity being the deciding factor in the destruction of Sovereign. And Saren ceratinly believed compliance was better than extermination, I don't think it's too hard to believe a species confronted with this situation would see their future hopeless and allow it to happen.

[Dethateer]

R0ck3t33r wrote...

Additionally, it's worth mentioning
that EDI jumps to a pretty weird conclusion: she says that the Reapers
failed to create a prothean-shaped Reaper. Why would she jump to that
conclusion? At that point, we'd only seen two reapers: Sovereign and the
Derelict Reaper.

Yeah, that seems like an odd conclusion drawn merely from the existance of the Collectors. And a wrong one, judging by Harbinger's shape.

Modifié par Dethateer, 08 février 2010 - 08:23 .