Reaper shapes, Vigil's inaccuracy, etc...
#51
Posté 08 février 2010 - 08:52
#52
Posté 08 février 2010 - 08:52
Doug84 wrote...
R0ck3t33r wrote...
Additionally, it's worth mentioning that EDI jumps to a pretty weird conclusion: she says that the Reapers failed to create a prothean-shaped Reaper. Why would she jump to that conclusion? At that point, we'd only seen two reapers: Sovereign and the Derelict Reaper.
I think its because there where protheans left after the reapers were done - its probably save to assume if the protheans where going to be made into reapers, they'd use every last one; "we need more prothean juice!"
Unless the collecters are a new development (and by new I mean only 50,000 years old instead of hundreds of millions), and there's no reason to think they are if they are the ones responsible for collecting and harvesting beings to make into reapers (also there's a lot more than 1 extinction cycle worth of ships past the relay), then it would be very reasonable to assume that significant numbers of protheans would be turned into collectors and left alive, even if they could make reapers out of them.
Sorry for the run on sentence
#53
Posté 08 février 2010 - 08:54
First, the Core was still intact, it could very well be feeding the organic parts.
Second, why grow a Reaper the shape of a human into a completely different shape involving an enormous waste of material? Sticking that thing into a synthetic shell would make much more sense.
[/quote]
From what I understand, I don't think the Reapers really have a "choice" about what the new reaper will look like. If they are "growing" it, it automatically takes the shape of a human because that's what the human DNA dictates. Then I'd assume they build the squid-shaped metal shell around it because it's a more efficient ship design for combat, FTL travel, etc.
#54
Posté 08 février 2010 - 08:55
#55
Posté 08 février 2010 - 08:55
[/quote]
First, the Core was still intact, it could very well be feeding the organic parts.
Second, why grow a Reaper the shape of a human into a completely different shape involving an enormous waste of material? Sticking that thing into a synthetic shell would make much more sense.
[/quote]
From what I understand, I don't think the Reapers really have a "choice" about what the new reaper will look like. If they are "growing" it, it automatically takes the shape of a human because that's what the human DNA dictates. Then I'd assume they build the squid-shaped metal shell around it because it's a more efficient ship design for combat, FTL travel, etc.
[/quote]
...
And that relates to your theory of it eventually growing to 2 km in length without the shell... how, exactly?
[e]What the hell is wrong with the forums today? the quoting system is even worse than usual.
Modifié par Dethateer, 08 février 2010 - 08:57 .
#56
Posté 08 février 2010 - 08:57
RampantBeaver wrote...
If the collectors actually attacked earth they would be able to make a lot more than one reaper! Even if they had abducted 100,000 people from the colonies. There's billions of humans on earth, do the math!
The amount of raw material present in a human isn't very much though. Think about what's left of a person when they're cremated: that's all the solid material we possess, the rest of us water. Even if they rehydrated the remains for organic material, you wouldn't get a full yield from one human body, probably not even 50%. A cubic kilometer is a like a small mountain, I think you'd need hundred of millions at least to make one reaper.
#57
Posté 08 février 2010 - 08:57
R0ck3t33r wrote...
Hello all,
I'd like to instigate some conversation about the bombshell that Reapers' shapes are based upon the species they harvest.
I am wondering why the Derelict Reaper is identical to Sovereign. Consider:
It's implied that the Collectors would need to attack Earth in order to have enough humans to complete the human-Reaper. If that's the case, then it's extremely unlikely that they would have had enough of the squid-shaped species to make more than one Sovereign-style Reaper. And even if they did, what are the odds that the Derelict Reaper just happens to be the same kind as Sovereign? The Reapers claim that the "cycle" has repeated countless times. If that's the case, then there HAS to be a bunch of different kinds of Reapers, so it seems like a bit of a coincidence that the only two Reapers that got left this side of Dark Space happened to be identical.
I guess that if BioWare had made the Derelict Reaper a different shape, it would have kind of spoiled the revelation about different Reaper shapes, but still. Seems sloppy, maybe? Also, all of the Reapers in the parting shot of ME2 are very, very similar. More similar, in fact, than humans look compared to, say, Krogans. Do you follow? This shoots down my theory that when multiple species are harvested in the same cycle, they tend to share certain characteristics. In "our" galaxy, for example (with the exception of the hanar and the elcor), all of the species are bipedal.
More importantly, I have some problems with Vigil's explanation, now that ME2's story has played out:
On Ilos (back in ME1), Vigil said that the Reapers completely wiped out the protheans (and took centuries to do it!). He never said anything about them taking protheans alive (in order to attempt a Prothean-shaped Reaper, as ME2 alludes to, which they apparently failed to build). Seems like this would have been a distinction worth making when Vigil spoke with Shepard.
Anyway - it's the little details like this that make me wonder about how much of the Mass Effect story arc was actually planned in advance. Inconsistencies like this wouldn't throw me quite so badly in a game where story wasn't quite so important. But this is BioWare!
Maybe we'll find out in ME3 that the human-Reaper was the first one to mimick the shape of their victims, and that all of the squid-Reapers are just subtle variations on a "traditional" Reaper shape. I hope. It would explain away most of these inconsistencies, except for Vigil's miscommunication. That one seems kind of unforgivable.
Thoughts?
Ummm, if the squid species was throughout the galaxy, there could be hundreds or thousands of earth population worlds.
I don't think Vigil was in a position to know everything the Reapers were doing.
#58
Posté 08 février 2010 - 08:58
RampantBeaver wrote...
If the collectors actually attacked earth they would be able to make a lot more than one reaper! Even if they had abducted 100,000 people from the colonies. There's billions of humans on earth, do the math!
the reapers does not want only genetic code, but technology, advancement, and probably grow at a correct rate, otherwise they should harvest more than a galaxy can "produce". I say, Borg!
Modifié par Coort, 08 février 2010 - 08:59 .
#59
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:00
[quote]1490 wrote...
[/quote]
First, the Core was still intact, it could very well be feeding the organic parts.
Second, why grow a Reaper the shape of a human into a completely different shape involving an enormous waste of material? Sticking that thing into a synthetic shell would make much more sense.
[/quote]
From what I understand, I don't think the Reapers really have a "choice" about what the new reaper will look like. If they are "growing" it, it automatically takes the shape of a human because that's what the human DNA dictates. Then I'd assume they build the squid-shaped metal shell around it because it's a more efficient ship design for combat, FTL travel, etc.
[/quote]
...
And that relates to your theory of it eventually growing to 2 km in length without the shell... how, exactly?
[e]What the hell is wrong with the forums today? the quoting system is even worse than usual.
[/quote]
Yeah sorry, I quoted it like I'd quote any other comment: don't know what happened.
Well I don't think it "grows" to the full length. I think the part we see at the end of the game, the human shape, is basically it's neural core, like a nervous system. That would be the only part that needs to be organic anyway, to allow thoughts and feelings that electronic computer systems can't provide. Otherwise metal parts are much stronger and easier to refine and shape than millions of human bodies, so the Collectors, other Reapers, whoever probably build the rest of the shell around the core.
#60
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:00
#61
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:01
Modifié par Dethateer, 08 février 2010 - 09:02 .
#62
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:01
LJScribes wrote...
don't forget that Harbinger was a reaper shaped similarly to the lead Collector, You can see this 3 times, once when it is disconnecting from the collectors you can see it's hologram, second when Joker hands you the data pad you see it again from several angles, and finally when we see the Reaper Invasion force he is leading it. this can lead us to assume that during the last reaper invasion the protheans built more reapers like it.
what makes it different? its "legs, tentacles w/e" fold under its carapace. Also it doesn't have the flat pointed body like Sovereign did, instead it has a fatter body with a rounded off end. Even its "head" is shaped like the lead Collector.
The Collectors weren't able to make a Prothean shaped Reaper this time around because there were so few of them, most likely the entire population of them was on that base. Not to mention their DNA was all dumbed down and similar thanks to controlled cloning to maintain their numbers so that they could still be used as pawns, as stated by Mordin and EDI they're technically weren't even Protheans anymore.. Apparently you need varying DNA to make a reaper, this would be why they needed to harvest multitudes of humans rather than just a few and clone them.
Prothean numbers were in the trillions during the last reaper invasion. moderately higher in comparison to the human population this time around. As far as we know Harbinger could be the only Prothean shaped reaper and those that weren't used to make another were either killed during the invasion or indoctrinated into slavery as the Collectors. This can give us an idea of just how many individuals of a particular species it takes to make ONE reaper.
It is my theory to suggest then that the species that was around to build the reapers that look like Sovereign and the derelict reaper were so much more numerous than the Protheans there were enough of them to create so many.
Hell we may even see a Keeper shaped reaper in ME3
J/k but it's an interesting thought.
Indeed. Nicely summed up :happy:
I have to put abit of hate onto the crowd that go "OMG, Human-Reaper == Superman flying in space == rubbish". There is no reason a human shaped reaper couldn't fly just as well as the squid-pawn-cuttlefish one's we've seen so far (though I have to wonder why they all seem to be those sorts of shapes).
Especially when you factor in the mass effect fields. Hell, you could shape it like a house and it'd fly through space just as well.
#63
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:03
Tamcia wrote...
When reapers attacked they used citadel to block all relays and communication, meaning one colony had no idea what was happening to the other. There was no way for Vigil to know whether reapers took protheans to "modify" them.
This is true. The Prothean survivors had to piece together what they could from what they could detect on the comm network, and that was very little.
#64
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:03
Barachiel wrote...
To answer an earlier question of why human and not asari, both novels, written by the head writer of the Mass Effect series, as well as Mordin in ME2, refer several times to humans having a much greater genetic diversity than other races. I'm guessing it's this trait that makes us more appealing to the Reapers. In fact... given Reapers use organic beings as either food and/or reproductive material, and the asari do much the same to improve their genetic diversity, I wonder if there's a long lost connection between the two. Honestly, if there was an organic species that just screamed "genetically engineered eons ago by an advanced race" its the mono-gendered, reproduce-with-anyone asari.
They say humanity has some of the most diverse genetics. Been a while since I read the books, so that answers my question.
Asari are a shoot-off species of the Reapers? That's kind of funny. Asari are the good version of a Reaper!
#65
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:05
Modifié par Giantevilhead, 08 février 2010 - 09:05 .
#66
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:09
Giantevilhead wrote...
It's kind of pointless to explain why the human Reaper looks like a human. There is no scientific or logical explanation behind it. It is what it is because that's what the writers wrote. The whole idea of the growth of the Reaper being dictated by the genetic material is just BS. The idea of humans being the most genetically diverse species is also BS. Chimps have more genetic diversity than humans. Just accept the fact that this what the writers want and no amount of rationalizing can make it believable.
Ya, but why not? It's fun to try and make sense of stuff, even if logic/reasoning isn't used. But, you are right, this thread might as well be trying to explain how biotics work.
Oh, wait, dark matter and element zero. Nevermind, makes perfect sense. (in other words:
#67
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:11
Giantevilhead wrote...
It's kind of pointless to explain why the human Reaper looks like a human. There is no scientific or logical explanation behind it. It is what it is because that's what the writers wrote. The whole idea of the growth of the Reaper being dictated by the genetic material is just BS. The idea of humans being the most genetically diverse species is also BS. Chimps have more genetic diversity than humans. Just accept the fact that this what the writers want and no amount of rationalizing can make it believable.
Perhaps, but I think it's fun to try to rationalize why things are happening as they pertain to the story. Maybe not everyone who plays ME has my imagination, but I personally like to get emersed in the RPGs I play, which is why I'm posting on this forum in the first place.
Also, I'll point out that ME has been very, very detailed in explaining all other aspects of the universe and technology, as evidenced by the huge amount of codex entries, most of which are based off real principles or theories of physics. It would be a weird exception if they made the Reaper look like the human "just because" without a real explanation.
#68
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:17
1490 wrote...
Also, I'll point out that ME has been very, very detailed in explaining all other aspects of the universe and technology, as evidenced by the huge amount of codex entries, most of which are based off real principles or theories of physics. It would be a weird exception if they made the Reaper look like the human "just because" without a real explanation.
Yes, the ME lore really make the difference and I'm with you, but on one thing you should really abandon any will of logical explanation: reaper shape. The Terminator reference and joke is obvious
#69
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:20
-It's never specified what species Sovereign was created from.
-The Prothean population spanned the entire galaxy so their population is many many times greater than humanity, maybe it's even larger than the currenty intergalactic community.
-Some Protheans did survive. They were indoctrinated and taken away.
-We haven't seen what the final form of the human reaper would look like. Since they mentioned it would be in an infant stage there could be multiple forms before it develops into a reaper.
#70
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:26
Coort wrote...
1490 wrote...
Also, I'll point out that ME has been very, very detailed in explaining all other aspects of the universe and technology, as evidenced by the huge amount of codex entries, most of which are based off real principles or theories of physics. It would be a weird exception if they made the Reaper look like the human "just because" without a real explanation.
Yes, the ME lore really make the difference and I'm with you, but on one thing you should really abandon any will of logical explanation: reaper shape. The Terminator reference and joke is obvious
I guess with the renegade Shep appearrance and the Terminator-like death music of ME 1, maybe the dev team are just really huge Terminator fans, haha. I guarantee you they are going to have some sort of explanation for it in ME 3, even if it is a movie reference originally. They are just too meticulous with everything else to say "We don't give a f*ck" about a main plotline element.
#71
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:35
DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
Giantevilhead wrote...
It's
kind of pointless to explain why the human Reaper looks like a human.
There is no scientific or logical explanation behind it. It is what it
is because that's what the writers wrote. The whole idea of the growth
of the Reaper being dictated by the genetic material is just BS. The
idea of humans being the most genetically diverse species is also BS.
Chimps have more genetic diversity than humans. Just accept the fact
that this what the writers want and no amount of rationalizing can make
it believable.
Ya, but why not? It's fun to try and make
sense of stuff, even if logic/reasoning isn't used. But, you are right,
this thread might as well be trying to explain how biotics work.
Oh, wait, dark matter and element zero. Nevermind, makes perfect sense. (in other words: ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png)
1490 wrote...
Giantevilhead wrote...
It's kind of pointless to explain why the human Reaper looks like a human. There is no scientific or logical explanation behind it. It is what it is because that's what the writers wrote. The whole idea of the growth of the Reaper being dictated by the genetic material is just BS. The idea of humans being the most genetically diverse species is also BS. Chimps have more genetic diversity than humans. Just accept the fact that this what the writers want and no amount of rationalizing can make it believable.
Perhaps, but I think it's fun to try to rationalize why things are happening as they pertain to the story. Maybe not everyone who plays ME has my imagination, but I personally like to get emersed in the RPGs I play, which is why I'm posting on this forum in the first place.
Also, I'll point out that ME has been very, very detailed in explaining all other aspects of the universe and technology, as evidenced by the huge amount of codex entries, most of which are based off real principles or theories of physics. It would be a weird exception if they made the Reaper look like the human "just because" without a real explanation.
What I'm trying to say is that there is a point where it is no longer possible for anyone to continue to rationalize how things work. It's like how they dealt with the issue of why 90% of all aliens in Star Trek look like humans with funny bumps on their heads. There was an episode in Star Trek: TNG that explained that billions of years ago, the first humanoid species evolved and when they ventured out into the universe, they found no other sentient beings. So they decided to spread their genetic material across the galaxy, seeding thousands, maybe millions of planets, and that's why there are so many humanoid species in Star Trek. However, if you get down to the science of it, it makes absolutely no sense. If you tried to explain it any further, the only answer you're going to find is "Q did it."
It's the same thing here. If you try to get too deep into it, the only explanation you'll find is, "because the wrtiers said so."
Modifié par Giantevilhead, 08 février 2010 - 09:37 .
#72
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:45
Modifié par tanarri23, 08 février 2010 - 09:49 .
#73
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:48
Dethateer wrote...
Asari didn't kill a Reaper.DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
This makes the most sense, but why humans and not asari?
Why do people keep posting the same misconceptions posted on these forums? It's only mentioned 100 times that the DNA of humans is special and it's implied that it gives the best potential for use as a reaper. Prothean DNA was not compatible with the process hence what was left being turned into the collectors (or at least this is implied by EDI). It has nothing to do with "because the humans killed a reaper that means we're superior!" It's the diversity in human genetics that make it valuable for use as a building block for reaper construction.
- If Garrus is in the squad while Harbinger is controlling a Collector it will state "Turian, you are considered too... primitive."
- If Grunt is in the squad while Harbinger is controlling a Collector it will comment on the krogan species as "...wasted potential".
- If Samara is in the squad while Harbinger is controlling a Collector it will comment on the asari species as "weak" because they rely on other species to reproduce.
- If Mordin is in the squad while Harbinger is controlling a Collector it will state "Salarian, life span too short, genetic code too fragile."
[*]The human reaper under construction wouldn't be the only one (people keep thinking that for some reason too). You could probably make thousands of reapers with as many humans as there are in the galaxy.
Modifié par Alien1099, 08 février 2010 - 09:51 .
#74
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:49
Giantevilhead wrote...
It's kind of pointless to explain why the human Reaper looks like a human. There is no scientific or logical explanation behind it. It is what it is because that's what the writers wrote. The whole idea of the growth of the Reaper being dictated by the genetic material is just BS. The idea of humans being the most genetically diverse species is also BS. Chimps have more genetic diversity than humans. Just accept the fact that this what the writers want and no amount of rationalizing can make it believable.
Humans had a big dieoff in the past, leaving only a small population. We're actually remarkably non-diverse genetically.
#75
Posté 08 février 2010 - 09:50
[/quote]
What I'm trying to say is that there is a point where it is no longer possible for anyone to continue to rationalize how things work. It's like how they dealt with the issue of why 90% of all aliens in Star Trek look like humans with funny bumps on their heads. There was an episode in Star Trek: TNG that explained that billions of years ago, the first humanoid species evolved and when they ventured out into the universe, they found no other sentient beings. So they decided to spread their genetic material across the galaxy, seeding thousands, maybe millions of planets, and that's why there are so many humanoid species in Star Trek. However, if you get down to the science of it, it makes absolutely no sense. If you tried to explain it any further, the only answer you're going to find is "Q did it."
It's the same thing here. If you try to get too deep into it, the only explanation you'll find is, "because the wrtiers said so."
[/quote]
Well yeah, if I'm trying to explain how an organic-synthetic machine could be built at the molecular level and still function relative to the laws of physics, sure it's just because "the writers said so"; none of them of are astrophysicists, so they'd have to take guesses anyway.
We're talking about a basic question though: why does this Reaper look human? If they can explain how FTL drives and mass effect fields work on a basic level, I'd think they'd at least attempt that with the human-reaper in ME 3.





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