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[Eerazor]

I think there are several interesting points made here, which also includes the fact that there was a brown darf in play.



If you remember when you rescued Tali, she mentioned the fact that the Brown Darf that is affecting the planet should not have been there, because the Star is too young. I think the Protheans attempted to build the Reaper Killer Weapon (RKW) in an attempt to go against it, and I think it has to do with the Star. Might be obvious, or I am reaching.



As for the Galactic Senate and the Citadel as a whole in Mass Effect 2, I think they pulled a Harry Potter there (Ministery of Magic ignoring the obvious in HP5 until Voldemort is at their Frontdoor in order to concentrate on background stuff first). As good as ME2 is, it feels very much like a filler, since a lot of the questions raised in ME1 dont even get mentioned in ME2, and ME2 has its own wealth of subtle hints as to what may or may not happen in ME3. Matrix 3 anyone?

[Rhostadt]

OP: In this case it wasn't a plot hole, you just weren't paying attention. TIM clearly states that they did find the weapon, but that it was defunct and the only use it turned out to be was as a point of reference to find the Reaper corpse.

[1490]

Rhostadt wrote...

OP: In this case it wasn't a plot hole, you just weren't paying attention. TIM clearly states that they did find the weapon, but that it was defunct and the only use it turned out to be was as a point of reference to find the Reaper corpse.

Ahh, I think I remember that now.  Well I still think if the Reaper and opposing ship shot and killed each other at the same time, the Reaper couldn't have sent a distress signal to it's fellows and just got lost to time.

This is all theory of course, but what on the forums isn't?

[Klimy]

ME2 left many things hanging in the air. If in ME1 after we finished the game it was more of "What's next?" and now in ME2 it more of "What was that?". I assume it will be all covered in ME3 or maybe BW left so many holes so that they will be closed with DLC and expansions? we will find out in time.



but if we look at DA - there were plenty of not covered topics left after the game finished and many "why not..." too. Now some of them are/will be covered in DLC and Awakening. So I hope this is same tactics for ME. In the end its easier to make story important DLC if you left a spot uncovered, instead of trying to push it into fully explained story.

[Fulgrim88]

Rhostadt wrote...

OP: In this case it wasn't a plot hole,
you just weren't paying attention. TIM clearly states that they did
find the weapon, but that it was defunct and the only use it turned out
to be was as a point of reference to find the Reaper corpse.

I heard what he said. But i don't like it. The gun might be blown into pieces for all i care, it's still 37million(!!!!!) year old technology. Hollywood action heroes probably wouldn't care (So defunct means i can't blow sh** up with it?), but every scientist in his right mind would. The age of that thing is reason enough.
Plus, we have the Reaper, which is clearly not disfunct. Or was, until we blew it up...
And i'm not necessarely talking about Cerberus here, but about SOMEONE in the past 37million years

Maybe the main reason why i pull my hair out about this is being a scientist myself

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

I did some research on this very subject and as it turns out it was a German design that was fired during the first WWII (roughly 36 million years ago before history started repeating itself). On the extranet I located a picture of it and the dead species. It was humanity's 5th restart. Anyways, here is the picture:

Kudos for bringing that up:D

[fogofeternity]

 Yeah, I always thought that TIM glossing over the usefulness of the weapon was a little unbelievable. They've only had possession of the information about both the Reaper and the weapon for a matter of weeks, hardly enough to reach any worthwhile conclusions.

Still, the idea of the weapon is cool, if for no other reason than it adds a little further historical story. Someone, at some time, fought back against the Reapers with enough skill to kill one. That's an interesting story in itself.

I'm really hoping that we get more opportunities for historical background in ME3. I loved the conversation with Vigil in ME1 which added a huge amount to the overall story. Now that the game world is extended to the Terminus systems as well, I'd love to see the discovery of pre-Prothean artefacts and learn a little bit more about the longer history of the Reapers.

[Eerazor]

Another thought:



TIM understatet the importance of the RKW for his own purpose. A few occasions have shown he may understate something when it serves his purpose, even if it puts others at risk. Tali finding the brown darf may actually mean that Cerebus is already developing the weapon and testing it, since a cause for the brown darf is never mentioned.

[Shorinjikan]

It remains to be seen if anything can be done with the weapon, but that's not for the short term. The Reaper was the important thing. It was also within the 'atmosphere' of the brown dwarf, not simply in orbit around it.



The 'planet' description clearly states that the anomaly of a stable area within the BD has been observed but has yet to be properly investigated.



The real bit where they dropped the ball is the great rift itself. It used to be clearly visable from the surface of one of it's moons, but now you can't even see it from direct orbit. Must have been 'used up' when Cerberus investigated...

[Spell Singer]

They never found the weapon, they only saw the scar a near miss caused. The reaper was not orbiting the brown dwarf but was inside the atmosphere of the failed star. It was only visible as a low mass area that did not move with the prevailing wind. Did you miss joker complaining about chop and 500 kps winds on approach?

[Ulicus]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I think people are often misled by sci-fi as to how hard it is to reverse-engineer something. Lets say you gave a modern day PC to scientists in the 1940s, it might help them confirm certain theoretical principles, but in order to back-engineer it they would first of all need to develop tools that enable them to analyse it, somehow develop whole new technologies in doing so, and then work out whole new technologies in order to build the tools to build PCs themselves.

In short, they might work out how it works in principle and guide them along the right paths, speeding up technology, but they won't have the tools needed to make them themselves.

I imagine you're right but, to be fair, Mass Effect is sci-fi... and sci-fi in which humanity's technology jumped forward 200 years from the study of a simple Prothean data cache. (Though there's speculation that this was all a big cover up and they were actually at it for years and years and the 2148 'discovery' date is a big sham... which is cool)

[Raygereio]

Fulgrim88 wrote...
I heard what he said. But i don't like it. The gun might be blown into pieces for all i care, it's still 37million(!!!!!) year old technology. Hollywood action heroes probably wouldn't care (So defunct means i can't blow sh** up with it?), but every scientist in his right mind would. The age of that thing is reason enough.
Plus, we have the Reaper, which is clearly not disfunct. Or was, until we blew it up...
And i'm not necessarely talking about Cerberus here, but about SOMEONE in the past 37million years

Remember that Mass Effect is a universe with civilizations that don't seem to even give a damn when entire colonies are being attacked/disapearing.
Even if someone found that gun (as was stated before; space is frigging huge and empty), it's likely they just didn't care.

Modifié par Raygereio, 08 février 2010 - 11:50 .

[Tokalla]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

I heard what he said. But i don't like it. The gun might be blown into pieces for all i care, it's still 37million(!!!!!) year old technology. Hollywood action heroes probably wouldn't care (So defunct means i can't blow sh** up with it?), but every scientist in his right mind would. The age of that thing is reason enough.
Plus, we have the Reaper, which is clearly not disfunct. Or was, until we blew it up...
And i'm not necessarely talking about Cerberus here, but about SOMEONE in the past 37million years

Maybe the main reason why i pull my hair out about this is being a scientist myself

TiM's remarks imply that Cerberus did study the what they found, and all they could discern from it was that it was no longer functional.  Due to the extended amount of time that has passed, it isn't unreasonable to assume that advanced unfamiliar technology that no longer functions would be of very little assistance to study.  There is no telling what has happened to that device in the 37 million years since it was last known to function.  Portions of it may have been scavenged by other species, damaged by environmental factors, or it may have even been damaged upon its last use.  Imagine trying to figure out how a flame thrower works under the same cicumstances.  We don't even know what it used for ammunition/power.  Considering we are still learning how some of our own ancient weapons of warfare worked, I don't see it as much of a stretch to find that Cerberus wasn't able to make much of a 37 million year old piece of more advanced technology created by an unknown species.  In order to reverse engineer, it would probably at least be a good starting point to know the basic physiology of the creatures too.  For all we know, they may have pulled a MacGyver and used something never meant to be a weapon for that purpose in a last ditch effort to survive.

[marshalleck]

Raygereio wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...
I heard what he said. But i don't like it. The gun might be blown into pieces for all i care, it's still 37million(!!!!!) year old technology. Hollywood action heroes probably wouldn't care (So defunct means i can't blow sh** up with it?), but every scientist in his right mind would. The age of that thing is reason enough.
Plus, we have the Reaper, which is clearly not disfunct. Or was, until we blew it up...
And i'm not necessarely talking about Cerberus here, but about SOMEONE in the past 37million years

Remember that Mass Effect is a universe with civilizations that don't seem to even give a damn when entire colonies are being attacked/disapearing.
Even if someone found that gun (as was stated before; space is frigging huge and empty), it's likely they just didn't care.

Exactly. The asari have been on the Citadel for 2,300 years and they know jack-**** about its systems and the Keepers. And they don't even display any intellectual curiosity about any of it.

Anderson even ponders this himself in the first book, how terribly convenient all those things are and how strange it is that nobody takes a second glance at any of it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 08 février 2010 - 12:49 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Ulicus wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I think people are often misled by sci-fi as to how hard it is to reverse-engineer something. Lets say you gave a modern day PC to scientists in the 1940s, it might help them confirm certain theoretical principles, but in order to back-engineer it they would first of all need to develop tools that enable them to analyse it, somehow develop whole new technologies in doing so, and then work out whole new technologies in order to build the tools to build PCs themselves.

In short, they might work out how it works in principle and guide them along the right paths, speeding up technology, but they won't have the tools needed to make them themselves.

I imagine you're right but, to be fair, Mass Effect is sci-fi... and sci-fi in which humanity's technology jumped forward 200 years from the study of a simple Prothean data cache. (Though there's speculation that this was all a big cover up and they were actually at it for years and years and the 2148 'discovery' date is a big sham... which is cool)

True, Mass Effect is sci-fi, but it does tend to be more conservative than most sci-fi when it comes to the benefits of reverse-engineering tech, occupying a more moderate line between realism and typical sci-fi: instead of developing Prothean level tech it merely jumped them forwards in technology, enhancing the tech humanity probably had a preliminary understanding of to begin with at that stage.  It stretches it with the 'jumping ahead 200 years' bit, being more moderate between story and realism, likewise research in Sovereign yields up a boost in weapons tech but I doubt the Thanix cannon is equivalent to a reaper gun. 

I would not be surprised to discover that they have managed to learn things from the weapon that took down the reaper found in ME2 (TIM is probably lying after all), just not reaper-level killing weapons.

[Ferocious7]

That gun will come in handy.... so will about 100 rounds (so 10,000 total) ammo for the Cain..... there will go the entire Reaper fleet.... even on Insanity if you place the shots well enough being they seem to fly so close together... I'll stand on a moon as they pass by and just light them up. /end game new game plus to test other romances haha

[Tokalla]

marshalleck wrote...

Exactly. The asari have been on the Citadel for 2,300 years and they know jack-**** about its systems and the Keepers. And they don't even display any intellectual curiosity about any of it.

Anderson even ponders this himself in the first book, how terribly convenient all those things are and how strange it is that nobody takes a second glance at any of it.

I actually spent the majority of the first game awaiting the moment it was revealed that the Keepers were evil.  I was almost saddened when it turned out they had been, but were now essentially neutral due to prothean intervention.  I still spent a few minutes revelling in the knowledge I had been mostly right (it required a short rant to my wife involving multiple, excited "I knew it" style remarks...which she promptly ruined with her "but they aren't working for the Reapers anymore" logic).

[Lmaoboat]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

I heard what he said. But i don't like it. The gun might be blown into pieces for all i care, it's still 37million(!!!!!) year old technology. Hollywood action heroes probably wouldn't care (So defunct means i can't blow sh** up with it?), but every scientist in his right mind would. The age of that thing is reason enough.
Plus, we have the Reaper, which is clearly not disfunct. Or was, until we blew it up...
And i'm not necessarely talking about Cerberus here, but about SOMEONE in the past 37million years

Well that sounds like a personal problem.

[Kurupt87]

sh!t, after 37million years any tech not protected by a magic bubble (mass effect field) would have virtually evaporated due to entropy if in space, and from general decay if on a planet.

[Fulgrim88]

marshalleck wrote...

Raygereio wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...
I heard what he said. But i don't like it. The gun might be blown into pieces for all i care, it's still 37million(!!!!!) year old technology. Hollywood action heroes probably wouldn't care (So defunct means i can't blow sh** up with it?), but every scientist in his right mind would. The age of that thing is reason enough.
Plus, we have the Reaper, which is clearly not disfunct. Or was, until we blew it up...
And i'm not necessarely talking about Cerberus here, but about SOMEONE in the past 37million years

Remember that Mass Effect is a universe with civilizations that don't seem to even give a damn when entire colonies are being attacked/disapearing.
Even if someone found that gun (as was stated before; space is frigging huge and empty), it's likely they just didn't care.

Exactly. The asari have been on the Citadel for 2,300 years and they know jack-**** about its systems and the Keepers. And they don't even display any intellectual curiosity about any of it.

Anderson even ponders this himself in the first book, how terribly convenient all those things are and how strange it is that nobody takes a second glance at any of it.

This, sadly. What bothers me is not so much the fact that they didn't get any tech out of that weapon, but the total lack of scientific curiosity. Any normal scientist would have been like "OH MY GAWD!!!", even if it was just a 37million year old toaster, let alone a weapon of mass destruction and the aforementioned city sized, sapient robot-vessel.

I've always been bothered by how inconsitently ME handles most alien tech. The first thing it tells us is how Prothean Tech is INSANELY rare and valuable, fetching huge bounties from both official and inofficial sources, but then it goes long ways to deny it again. In ME1 alone we find dozens of prothean ruins and data discs, by casually scanning some planets (with our ill-equipped military vessel). Now that's what i call rare.
And while the alliance pretty much freaks out about the beacon on Eden Prime, nobody can be bothered to search for Ilos again, even with recent data on the Mu-Relay. Or do some research on Feros (those must have been some damn thorough looters)
And then theres the Citadel-tech...remember Jahleed? The guy who came up with the nobel-prize-worty idea of scanning the Keepers (thus learning much about their function, as he tells you in an e-mail). A-ma-zing. Of course no one's come up with something similar in the 2300 years of current Citadel occupation, let alone the past million years. Seriously, how did the Citadel-races ever manage to leave their caves with that utter lack of curiosity?

Of course i'm exaggerating here - quite some of those things ain't as easy as they sound - but still...
I can't believe that the galaxy is ruled and inhabited by people who's main credo is "Don't bother". Either it's working conveniently, so don't bother (and don't disturb it, e.g. Keepers), or it's long dead and broken, so don't bother either...

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 08 février 2010 - 02:06 .

[Tokalla]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Of course i'm exaggerating here - quite some of those things ain't as easy as they sound - but still...
I can't believe that the galaxy is ruled and inhabited by people who's main credo is "Don't bother". Either it's working conveniently, so don't bother (and don't disturb it, e.g. Keepers), or it's long dead and broken, so don't bother either...

I'm assuming you aren't much of a "people" person, are you?  Since this pretty much describes a large portion of humanity in the real world too.

Edit:  I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, merely an observation.

Modifié par Tokalla, 08 février 2010 - 02:41 .

[Valmy]

scyphozoa wrote...

yup, the idea of a derilict reaper and derilict space weapon that no one found or investigated is absurd to me. TIM says the science team on the derilict reaper went missing and wasn't worth more resources - ITS A REAPER - ITS CLEARLY WORTH THE RESOURCES.

Is it worth the resources that are simply going to be indoctrinated and lost forever?  Besides he sends you, his most expensive and precious resource to investigate.

[Naltair]

I think the curiosity is there especially with the keepers but any attempt to scan or study them ended in dead ends or dead Keepers. After this happens enough the Council just make a decree to leave them alone, it was probably just becoming a problem.



Not perfect but I could see it happening the Council tends to be fairly conservative.

[Fulgrim88]

Tokalla wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Of course i'm exaggerating here - quite some of those things ain't as easy as they sound - but still...
I can't believe that the galaxy is ruled and inhabited by people who's main credo is "Don't bother". Either it's working conveniently, so don't bother (and don't disturb it, e.g. Keepers), or it's long dead and broken, so don't bother either...

I'm assuming you aren't much of a "people" person, are you?  Since this pretty much describes a large portion of humanity in the real world too.

Edit:  I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, merely an observation.

That made me smile, actually. No offense taken. I should have seen the similarity

[Fishy]

At some point in the game.They're talking about how many % of the galaxy has been visited.Something like 5% i think.So why would they find a ship floating soemwhere in the cosmos?



Cerberus found it because they're so cool and human.

[Kharn-ivor]

It seems to me that what ever that weapon was the guns on dreadnoughts or the new Thanix guns are better any ways. Plus making a gun on a planet is pretty silly considering you have to waist huge amouts of energy getting away from its gravity.



But I agree with the "not worth the ressources to look at a dead reaper" ...thats pretty weird.