70 réponses à ce sujet

[Wintermist]

Mister Mage wrote...

Except you didn't say "It's a change, I don't like it."  You said it's restrictive.  That statement is stupid, considering a game(and ESPECIALLY an RPG) is built on a ruleset of restrictions.

This is where we don't think alike. I consider RPG rules as a definition of what is possible within the level of realism you want the game to have. I don't see rules made to restrict you, but rather have rules to give you options.

Sure it was easy as a level 60 Adept in Mass Effect 1, but perhaps that wasn't the fault of being able to cast the abilities as you wished, but that the actual ability was too strong? Singularity in Mass Effect 1 was an "I win" ability.

What was said above though, to have a pool from where you draw your power is to me the ultimate way to do it. Either you spend it all fast and hang back, or manage your power and last longer. It would be up to you to decide. And that's how I like to play games.

[Aratham Darksight]

Wintermist wrote...

Aratham Darksight wrote...

You asked why a game mechanic prevented you from doing whatever you liked. As long as whatever you're playing has any claim to be called a "game", you'll be limited in some way. So appealing to FREEDOM! as an argument against some game mechanic makes about as much sense as my cat's examples. It's not like the old system was any more logical or less arbitrary. Why is every biotic skill you know on a separate cooldown? Does your amp come with spam filters?

But the old system did in fact give you more FREEDOM. No?

It allowed me to use different powers in quick succession. But if there were two different targets where the same power was ideal (they are both conveniently standing on the edges of bottomless pits, for example) I had to wait much longer to do that. Not that it really mattered what I use, most of them worked as well as any other in most situations.

But like I said, FREEDOM isn't really a convincing design principle for me, when it comes to gameplay mechanics. For plot and level design? Definitely. Character advancement? Sure. Gameplay mechanics, not so much.

[kraze07]

Wow, some people actually like switching ammo types then having to wait before using an ability? I bet if they removed tech/biotic abilities completely you guys would be even more satisfied. And for some of the other guys how did you continuously spam the same abilities in ME1 when they had a longer cooldown than in ME2?

[EternalWolfe]

Wintermist wrote...

EternalWolfe wrote...

I liked being able to combine powers in the first game, but I can see why they added the universal(truthfully, most of my skills recharge so fast later in the game, it almost makes no difference, my infiltrator got of 3 incinerates before my squad could fire again).

On another thread(can't remember what it was called) somebody suggested a system for bioitcs/tech that worked something like the overheat system from teh first game. Each ability would push up the 'heat' by a certain amount, and if it was too low, you'd have to wait for the bar to dissapate before firing again. This would let you quick fire multiple abilities when you had to, but wouldn't let you spam them all day. I rather like the sound of that system.

Yeah it's close to something I've been thinking about as well. Basically it's a mana bar for biotics. Then you'd decide for yourself how you'd want to spend your power.

Do you cast everything you have and be left empty until you regain strength, or do you use a constant stream of abilities to preserve power.

But in the end I figured most people would rather complain about it "BIOTICS ARE NO FRIGGING MAGES" so I kept quiet about it.

First of all, just to make the point, Biotics sort of are mages, when you think about it.  But anyways, its easily explained.

In the first game, bio-amps have power modulators built in to keep the user from over-using biotics and frying themselves out.  Each 'path' that triggered different abilties were monitored, and it would keep that path from reopening until it was safe again(long cooldowns)
In the second, power modultors would spread the build-up among all paths, keeping you from firing anything in quick succession, but lowering the time it takes to 'recharge'.
In the third(the system i mentioned), new advancements in technology allow the bioamp to store some of the buildup in itself, and lower the amount of strain on your system.  Although still limited, it allows for multiple biotics to be fired, until the power modultor 'shuts down' the abiltities to keep from overloading(either itself or its user).

[termokanden]

kraze07: You couldn't. An adept with a good amp could spam abilities continuously in ME1, just not the same one. And yes, it was overpowered. Not so much because you could spam the abilities, but because they were so insanely good.

[Mister Mage]

Wintermist wrote...

Mister Mage wrote...

Except you didn't say "It's a change, I don't like it."  You said it's restrictive.  That statement is stupid, considering a game(and ESPECIALLY an RPG) is built on a ruleset of restrictions.

This is where we don't think alike. I consider RPG rules as a definition of what is possible within the level of realism you want the game to have. I don't see rules made to restrict you, but rather have rules to give you options.

Sure it was easy as a level 60 Adept in Mass Effect 1, but perhaps that wasn't the fault of being able to cast the abilities as you wished, but that the actual ability was too strong? Singularity in Mass Effect 1 was an "I win" ability.

What was said above though, to have a pool from where you draw your power is to me the ultimate way to do it. Either you spend it all fast and hang back, or manage your power and last longer. It would be up to you to decide. And that's how I like to play games.

The implementation that would be best from that idea, and the one I think is obvious, would be a "heat bar".  Using powers heats up the amp.  Maybe "stronger" or more generally effective powers add more heat to the bar than others.  Overheating the power bar can slow down cooling as biotic powers are used to mitigate damage to the amp.

[LZIM]

DarthCaine wrote...

If it wasn't universal the game would be too easy

Which ignores the part where it would make sense!

My biotic abilties are magically linked to everyone elses? That's silliness and handholding. Worse it limits proper tactics.. just spam the buttons and eventually stuff will happen with perfect coordination.

[Wintermist]

Mister Mage wrote...

Wintermist wrote...

Mister Mage wrote...

Except you didn't say "It's a change, I don't like it."  You said it's restrictive.  That statement is stupid, considering a game(and ESPECIALLY an RPG) is built on a ruleset of restrictions.

This is where we don't think alike. I consider RPG rules as a definition of what is possible within the level of realism you want the game to have. I don't see rules made to restrict you, but rather have rules to give you options.

Sure it was easy as a level 60 Adept in Mass Effect 1, but perhaps that wasn't the fault of being able to cast the abilities as you wished, but that the actual ability was too strong? Singularity in Mass Effect 1 was an "I win" ability.

What was said above though, to have a pool from where you draw your power is to me the ultimate way to do it. Either you spend it all fast and hang back, or manage your power and last longer. It would be up to you to decide. And that's how I like to play games.

The implementation that would be best from that idea, and the one I think is obvious, would be a "heat bar".  Using powers heats up the amp.  Maybe "stronger" or more generally effective powers add more heat to the bar than others.  Overheating the power bar can slow down cooling as biotic powers are used to mitigate damage to the amp.

Yup, that would certainly work for me.

[Aratham Darksight]

LZIM wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

If it wasn't universal the game would be too easy

Which ignores the part where it would make sense!

My biotic abilties are magically linked to everyone elses? That's silliness and handholding. Worse it limits proper tactics.. just spam the buttons and eventually stuff will happen with perfect coordination.

But... they're not. Everyone has their own personal cooldown.

[Sidac]

Im glad they put it in. Forces you to think about what your going to use rather than just sitting there spamming every ability you have.

[Wintermist]

Sidac wrote...

Im glad they put it in. Forces you to think about what your going to use rather than just sitting there spamming every ability you have.

You would still have to think about what ability would suit the situation so I don't really see that as a reason good enough.

[Bendok]

I prefer this system to ME1's. In ME1 as a biotic you'd basically blow all your stuff, then have to rely on your weak gun skills for a long time til everything was back. As biotic in ME2 you are using your powers constantly. I hardly ever shoot as an Adept, granted I'm not playing an adept on insanity or hardcore.

[Wintermist]

Bendok wrote...

I prefer this system to ME1's. In ME1 as a biotic you'd basically blow all your stuff, then have to rely on your weak gun skills for a long time til everything was back. As biotic in ME2 you are using your powers constantly. I hardly ever shoot as an Adept, granted I'm not playing an adept on insanity or hardcore.

Uhm, if you didn't want to blow all your abilities, then why did you do it?

And I've got to say, I'm currently playing an Adept on Hardcore in Mass Effect 1, level 60. I use my gun just as much as my abilities. And I also did that in Mass Effect 2. Would you elaborate some?

[durasteel]

kungfusam wrote...

ralphfromdk wrote...

ye.. i see the uni cooldown as a good thing.. otherwise you could spam all your powers waaaay to fast and to often... makes you think more about what to use

I agree with this, makes you think more about how you use your skills, rather then just spam them as soon as there ready

I have to completely disagree with this.  It makes you pick one offensive power and spam it every time the cooldown is done, whereas seperate cooldowns would encourage you to cycle through your abilities in a rotation, or based more upon target considerations.

The global cooldown turns every character into a one-trick pony.

[Hulluliini]

I like. Get to use my powers more.

[smore006]

Aratham Darksight wrote...

LZIM wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

If it wasn't universal the game would be too easy

Which ignores the part where it would make sense!

My biotic abilties are magically linked to everyone elses? That's silliness and handholding. Worse it limits proper tactics.. just spam the buttons and eventually stuff will happen with perfect coordination.

But... they're not. Everyone has their own personal cooldown.

^- this.

But to be a bit less off topic, i'll say this: in my playing experience, i didn't feel the universal cooldown limited me to any more extent than the power-specific cooldowns in ME1.
There is also an explanation well backed up by the lore: using biotic powers drains the users' "strength", after shotting one off, there is need for the ability (ability to use biotics in general) to 'settle down' before another power can be used. This applies to all human biotics, except maybe Ginny Grayson (and "cutscene SuZe").
At the end of the day, the concept of the universal cooldown is perfectly fine game mechanic which - as a bonus - even fits into the established lore.

Wintermist wrote...
And I've got to say, I'm currently playing an Adept on Hardcore in Mass Effect 1, level 60. I use my gun just as much as my abilities. And I also did that in Mass Effect 2. Would you elaborate some?

Gotcha! Basically said it yourself that the end result is the same, whichever mechanic is being used. Are we arguing only for the sake of the argument, then?

Modifié par smore006, 09 février 2010 - 12:31 .

[Razgriz9327]

i think its incredible, but slightly difficult to work in high cooldown powers on adept/engineer

[Frotality]

err...i love it for adding tactical use of powers actually...because the differing cooldowns affect my ability to use any power, i have to think about more than 'use every ability, wait for recharge, repeat'.

[Sidney]

durasteel wrote...
I have to completely disagree with this.  It makes you pick one offensive power and spam it every time the cooldown is done, whereas seperate cooldowns would encourage you to cycle through your abilities in a rotation, or based more upon target considerations.

The global cooldown turns every character into a one-trick pony.

This, now that I think about it, coupled with the high cost of getting 2 powers levelled up combined to functionally mean my Vanguard was all shockwave all the time and my Sentinal has been all Reave all the time.

[Odd Hermit]

Frotality wrote...

err...i love it for adding tactical use of powers actually...because the differing cooldowns affect my ability to use any power, i have to think about more than 'use every ability, wait for recharge, repeat'.

But in ME 2 for some classes, it feels more like use X ability, wait for recharge, use X again, wait for recharge, use X again because X is the best ability to almost every time.

Which is why I think most people think Vanguard/Infilitrator are more fun than Adept/Sentinel/Engineer. They're far less reliant on waiting for biotic/tech CDs since they have better weapon damage to fill the void and are more focused on integrating combat with bitoic/tech.

Personally, I don't think I could play an Adept or Engineer at all in ME 2, would drive me crazy.

Modifié par Odd Hermit, 09 février 2010 - 02:41 .

[termokanden]

That's exactly what I mean. I did end up spamming Warp through the whole game.

Sure I COULD use crowd control, but it doesn't hit very many enemies now (or the enemies are too spread out), so I might as well just Warp each of them. I don't have to mix abilities anymore because of the universal cooldown.

The strength of the adept used to be the ability to use many biotics instead of just one or two. Now that has been turned into a weakness, since you don't need them and they only take up the spot of something that's actually useful, such as an ammo power or, say, Tech Armor.

Come to think of it, the old Warp was much better designed. It actually wasn't powerful in itself, but it increased weapon damage taken. So the old Warp encouraged a mix of shooting and casting, the new Warp does not.

Modifié par termokanden, 09 février 2010 - 02:44 .