14 réponses à ce sujet

[kallikles]

...why the lack of weapons and armor?

One of the things that make RPGs fun is finding spiffy new pieces of gear. I realize that ME2 is more like an FPS with RPG elements, but still... a few more weapon and armor models (or even different weapons and armor with the same model) would have made this game even better than it already is.

[Kosmiker]

Oh don't worry, there will be lots of guns and weapons in future DLCs, you'll just have to pay for it!



It sucks... I know.

[kallikles]

I don't mind paying extra, but what does suck is that there's a good chance that the minor DLCs will only come out once I've already finished the game several times over. By then, the damage has already been done.

[kallikles]

Inarborat wrote...

Everyone complained about too much loot in ME 1 and now everyone complains there isn't enough loot in ME 2.  There's no satisfying you people.    Truthfully, I love high level caps and loads of loot but the rest of ME 2 is so damn good, I didn't care at all.  I just wanted to explore, converse with my squad or get on with the mission.  The quality of the game more than makes up for less loot.

Yeah, clearly the fact that other people complained about having lots of loot in ME1 means I shouldn't complain about lack of it in ME2. Lovely argument. <_<

But yes, the game is great. That doesn't mean that improving this part wouldn't make it better. And since Bioware is unlikely to have any psychics on staff, having a lot of people mentioning it on the forums is a good way to increase chances of this issue getting addressed in ME3 - perhaps making it even better than ME2 already is.

[Gegenlicht]

Agreed to some extent. I find it kind of pointless to have choices for certain guns only for those choices to be the choice between a basic model and one that is better on most counts. It's not really a choice at the end of the day. Once you've got the advanced model, you're unlikely to go back. Which really just leaves you with a choice of heavy weapon. And that in turn comes down to Collector Particle Beam vs. Cain halfways through the game. With this setup, they could have just made the 'new' weapon models upgrades of the old ones rather than different models and it wouldn't have changed a thing, other than removing the selection screen which creates the illusion of choice.



Also, special ammo being a class skill makes no sense on any level of storytelling. I could barely tolerate it as a necessary evil to balance gameplay, but then squad ammo negates any argument in that direction. I much preferred the ME1 modular guns where I could build one guy a really heavy gun that set people on fire, and the next guy a super accurate gun that tore through armor regardless of any other factors.



Lastly, armor choices. One thing I always hated about games like Diablo and EQ and their spawn was linking looks to in-game effects. Not that the ca. 3 choices per body part make for much of a difference in looks. Which is another problem entirely. Not that ME1 was perfect here either, but with modular mods, I could get the bonuses I want and wear armor I found pleasing to look at. The main offender to me is mostly the Death Mask helmet, which is about as ugly as you can get without being a Vorcha. That, and helmets force you into modulated voice mode during convos. There's a reason most Sheps in game videos posted wear that visor; it's a piece of headgear with an acceptable bonus and it doesn't screw up your voice and it doesn't hide the face you so carefully crafted at all times (as opposed to ME1's helmet toggle only forcing helmets in combat situations).

[Gegenlicht]

Inarborat wrote...

Everyone complained about too much loot in ME 1 and now everyone complains there isn't enough loot in ME 2.

It's not a lack of 'loot'. It's a lack of choice, coupled with an attempt to create the illusion of choice. Outside of heavy weapons and DLC there's no reason to even have a weapon selection screen at the beginning of each mission. If weapons were still moddable and you could truly individualize each character's loadout, things might be different. Given the research and minifacturing options of ME2, you could simply have found and researched mods, kept them in the database and adjusted weapons to taste rather than needing to carry dozens of mods in an awkward inventory. This would also have nicely served as another way to use resources and make them matter past maxing out research.

[kallikles]

Gegenlicht wrote...

Inarborat wrote...

Everyone complained about too much loot in ME 1 and now everyone complains there isn't enough loot in ME 2.

It's not a lack of 'loot'. It's a lack of choice, coupled with an attempt to create the illusion of choice. Outside of heavy weapons and DLC there's no reason to even have a weapon selection screen at the beginning of each mission. If weapons were still moddable and you could truly individualize each character's loadout, things might be different. Given the research and minifacturing options of ME2, you could simply have found and researched mods, kept them in the database and adjusted weapons to taste rather than needing to carry dozens of mods in an awkward inventory. This would also have nicely served as another way to use resources and make them matter past maxing out research.

Actually, lack of loot does play a role. At least, for me it does.

Weapon and armor replacements are one of the best ways to create a sense of character development, and they are a very simple method to make a game feel even more rewarding. Personally, I prefer seeing a new, useful weapon or piece of armor at least every few hours.

[glen55]

(1) Loot has never been Bioware's strong point. Going all the way back to Baldur's Gate, Bioware always places the good loot. If you replay the game, you will find the same uber-sword in the same spot. Usually the best items come from killing a boss.



A little game called Wizardry for the Apple 2e got this right, way back in the dawn of time. Large loot tables, with different loot tables for different levels and different areas. Tons of items, some of which were ridiculously powerful, and you never knew quite what you were going to get.



Diablo 2 and WOW are another couple of games that did a great job with loot. Bioware has never been in the running in that contest. It's really the only hole in Bioware's RPG resume. Except for loot, they are pretty much the best at everything.



(2) Loot in ME1 sucked. ME2 has over-corrected by virtually eliminating loot, but there is still SOME loot, some of it quite important and good, and anyway, no loot at all would be better than the ME1 system.



The ME1 system was basically a million identical items that you have to scroll through and omni-gel, or else go through several more steps that are involved in actually checking them out and equipping with them. Despite all that tedium, there was very little choice, because typically it was pretty obvious which assault rifle or armor piece or whatever was the best.



There can be some adjustment pains in adopting to a "loot lite" system like ME2, but if you can wipe the RPG expectations out of your mind and just see whether what is actually there is fun or not, I think you'll realize that it actually is. Fun, that is.



It'll hold me over til Bioware comes up with a real loot-tables-based system, for which I am not holding my breath.



To me, the ME2 system is a clear improvement.

[kallikles]

It shouldn't have to be hard at all to implement a balanced loot system, even in a game consisting mostly of side-quests. Just have missions or bosses drop gear pseudo-randomly at semi-set intervals based on what you already have (a simple if-then), and gear progression should still be balanced - especially with a number of storyline-based drops (e.g. the collector ship weapons) present as well. Then, perhaps, also make a few pieces of gear become available at stores after certain points in the game, and you have a good variety of sources.



With a system like that, it's easy to avoid a situation where you get tons of useless drops.



Also: nobody is arguing that the ME1 system should come back. ME1 is in the past, it's no longer relevant. This thread is essentially about how to improve the loot system for ME3, based on experiences from ME2.

[glen55]

kallikles, I guess I was more responding to general complaints on the forums than to your post in particular.



Your suggestions are good, and they don't sound all that difficult to implement, but based on Bioware's history with loot I'm not holding my breath. They have always given the short straw to loot.



I would certainly like to see some randomization and a fair number of options in an ideal loot system. Wizardry and games like Hack, Diablo II, Torchlight, etc. are infinitely replayable just because the loot is always changing.



But like I said, I ain't holdin' my breath. ME2 loot is better than ME1 loot, so that makes me happy. In the meantime, I'll support folks lobbying for a better loot system, but I won't shed too many tears if ME3 is fairly similar to ME2.



My best guess: it will be somewhere in between ME1 and ME2. Bioware has certainly made it crystal clear with this game that they listen to and respond to user complaints, and there are plenty of complaints re ME2 loot as too "rpg lite."

[granual]

while the game is OK, its far from the best game ever.



on the downside the game is mostly recruit/loyalty missions, a few other side quests and something like 3 main story missions, theirs virtually no loot, limited Armour,(speaking of armor why are looks tied to effects in so many games, that's just absurd) ,the Citadel is reduced to practically nothing.



importing a character from me1 doesn't allow for minor tweaking, its either start from scratch or keep what you had and there's no scars.





on the upside, the combat runs smooth, it has better graphics





so in my opinion me2 stands apart from the original, to far

[SmilingMirror]

Heh, I actually think ME2 is one of the greatest games ever made, it goes into my top 10 right now.

[kallikles]

Granual, ME2 definitely isn't flawless. But I have trouble thinking of specific games that were better. Not games that were better in theory, mind you, but games that actually were more fun.

[Awesome Helmet]

ME1 is a better game. not saying i wont play the hell out of ME2. i just wont be playing it over 30 times like i did in ME1. unless this DLC gets more story filling. i just dont feel like i did anything in ME2 other then find a few people to help me with some mission. wasnt very story centric i guess. when i got done with the game, i just though to myself "so what the heck did i just do?"