92 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

Riot Inducer wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
This.  Only the useful people conveniently survive, Miranda killing of Wilson makes sense then as a "You're not meant to have lived this far!" type thing as well.  I do wonder if one of EDI's hidden functions is also a 'We killed the reapers so time to clean house' kill-all program too, maybe by detonating the suicide pills hidden in Cerberus employees' molars?

That's a rather scary thought, and EDI even said she may have hidden subroutines she's not aware of that might be activated by some event or imput... 

Exactly, he's protecting his 'investment'.  "Special code alpha accepted, venting Normandy crew..."

[Cutlass Jack]

BigKahuna25 wrote...

was the blood on her uniform before she shot wilson point blank? because that would do it

It was on her when the door opened, before she fired. But I just replayed it again and I'm not entirely sure if it was meant to be blood or just some unfortunate trick of the light. Since you don't see it in the conversation after she shoots.

But that replay has me convinced even more she was lying. The one part everyone misses is that one dead body with the thermal clip outside the medbay. Miranda says it was someone trying to hack the door to kill you, but I find it incredibly unlikely there wouldn't have been a guard stationed outside your door.

Since there's no other body there, I'm pretty sure that was the guard. Which would explain the barracades they set up.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 08 février 2010 - 02:03 .

[Tokalla]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Wilson was set up. He didn't betray anyone. There is no evidence whatsoever pointing at him. Only Miranda's word after he's too dead to object.

While it is true that insufficient evidence exists to prove his guilt, there is also not sufficient evidence to prove his innocence.  Based on his logs we know he felt underpaid and underappreciated.  According to Jacob (the guy in charge of security), Wilson shouldn't have access to the systems he claimed he went to try and fix.  Wilson has a minor wound in a room I recall being devoid of mechs until after you arrive.  Had he been wounded by the ones in the room prior, why did they not finish him off?  He is impatient to leave, and becomes even more so when you mention speaking to Miranda (who he insists is dead already).  In the moment before he dies, he seems shocked and frightened upon seeing Miranda alive.

Then there is the issue of Cerberus seeming to retake the facility.  If you have the Blood Dragon Armor, the email from TiM mentions that the armor was on the facility for you and lost during the attack.  However, it was recovered upon the retaking of the facility and has been sent to you.  Perhaps this is just an elaborate cover up, but it seems rather odd to lie about something when there is clearly no need. 

In past project cleanings, they tend to abandon the facility and those involved.  Why would they only cleanse the workers this time (and based on the damage done to the facility, why bother retaking it at all)?  If the attack were planned by Cerberus, wouldn't Miranda and TiM have removed all vital info/equipment/etc prior to risking damage or permanent loss due to the chaos?  If it was just a test for Shepard, then why did Miranda not seem satisfied with a test she supposedly created (she is only convinced to stop questioning and likely physical tests that would come later by Jacob)?  I don't see her as the type to run a test she created unless she has absolute faith in its ability to measure what she intends it to measure.

While I certainly see TiM and Miranda as capable of such actions, I simply don't see the signs here that there was enough motive on their part.  Though, I do feel the intention of the event is to reinforce distrust in the player (or create some in new players).  I feel that is likely why we are never given solid evidence (which it is possible Miranda actually has) proving Wilson's guilt or innocence.  Miranda killing Wilson also serves as a way to demonstrate all that is Cerberus.  They are cold, ruthless, and will go to whatever lengths are required to obtain their goals.

[Tokalla]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

It was on her when the door opened, before she fired. But I just replayed it again and I'm not entirely sure if it was meant to be blood or just some unfortunate trick of the light. Since you don't see it in the conversation after she shoots.

But that replay has me convinced even more she was lying. The one part everyone misses is that one dead body with the thermal clip outside the medbay. Miranda says it was someone trying to hack the door to kill you, but I find it incredibly unlikely there wouldn't have been a guard stationed outside your door.

Since there's no other body there, I'm pretty sure that was the guard. Which would explain the barracades they set up.

I agree that was likely the guard, but I think the point was someone was remotely trying to hack the door (she obviously kept it locked unless you had a certain security clearance), to allow the mechs to enter.  Which is also why one walks down the stairs right after you exit.  I suspect that the guard may have been killed by the explosion that happens, and had likely been someone she was sending to get you if you hadn't come around on your own.

[Aisynia]

I don't think he was trying to kill Shepard, just everyone else. I always figured someone like the Shadow Broker or the Collectors themselves paid him a whole lotta money to do it.

[Valmy]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Wilson was set up. He didn't betray anyone. There is no evidence whatsoever pointing at him. Only Miranda's word after he's too dead to object.

Not only Miranda's word, The Illusive Man says it like it was an established fact.

Why or how he betrays Cereberus is never explained.  However his logs indicate he was feeling unappreciated by Miranda and underpaid by The Illusive Man.

Modifié par Valmy, 08 février 2010 - 02:37 .

[Cutlass Jack]

I disagree about motive. How well do you think it would have gone if they let you wake up under calmer circumstances as they explained you were in a Cerberus facility? It's part of many manipulations TIM does to keep you on his side.



Much like how he set you up on the Horizon mission to 'get rid of excess baggage' from your past. Just because he didn't put a control chip in you doesn't mean he's not manipulating you at every turn during ME2.



And Wilson doesn't need evidence to prove him innocent, unless you're not a big fan of the 'innocent until proven guilty' thing.

[tmp7704]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I disagree about motive. How well do you think it would have gone if they let you wake up under calmer circumstances as they explained you were in a Cerberus facility? It's part of many manipulations TIM does to keep you on his side.

It'd went just the same minus the explosion part. Why would the fact Cerberus facility got blown up change Shepard's attitude towards them in any way? That's a very expensive way to gain nothing at all and as such they don't really have reason for it.

[addiction21]

The mechs wanted waffles for breakfest. The humans would not give them waffles for breakfest. Mechs do not have mouths

So they go on a killing rampage.



It is actually a general occurance.

[brgillespie]

He programmed the mechs to kill everything and intended to turn over the unconscious Shepard to whomever it was that offered him an assload of money to turn traitor.

There's a couple of logs strewn about where he talks about not being appreciated and wishing Cerberus would pay him more.

Modifié par brgillespie, 08 février 2010 - 02:46 .

[FlintlockJazz]

I agree with Cutlass Jack in that there was definitely more going on. The only three to survive are Miranda (the head honcho, and TIM's right hand woman), Shep (the product they were making), and Jacob (a specialist they want to send with you).



I doubt they would have left the base unmanned and unguarded regardless of whether they arranged it or if Wilson betrayed everyone, and has probably set it to self-destruct to clean up what's left. Also, when did Miranda give TIM the evidence that Wilson was betraying them? She didn't seem to have the time to send it to him after you meet up with her, at least not in time for him to look it over and conclude she's right, unless she sent it to him before Wilson acted, in which case why wasn't he stopped in time? All very suspicious to me...

[Cutlass Jack]

tmp7704 wrote...

It'd went just the same minus the explosion part. Why would the fact Cerberus facility got blown up change Shepard's attitude towards them in any way? That's a very expensive way to gain nothing at all and as such they don't really have reason for it.

Shepard's a man/woman of action. Keep them focused on survival and less on asking tricky questions. Seeing all the Cerberus people die 'defending' him paints them in a more sympathetic light for when things calm down.

Also it confirms that he's up to the task ahead of him physically. Really if he died there, they wasted their money and he wasn't the right person for the job.

[tmp7704]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Shepard's a man/woman of action. Keep them focused on survival and less on asking tricky questions. Seeing all the Cerberus people die 'defending' him paints them in a more sympathetic light for when things calm down.

But you still get to ask the questions afterwards, that saved them nothing. And no one is really defending Shepard on the way out, the staff gets slaughtered by security bots while trying to save their own lives. You meet one guy who is also trying to get out to save his own skin, and that's it. It definitely didn't feel like getting through that base improved Cerberus' image. If anything, it made them look worse --incompetent-- when a single (supposed) traitor they didn't suspect almost managed to ruin their project. Which would hardly make Shepard want to cooperate with them and as such doubt it's the impression they'd want to paint.

[Tokalla]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I disagree about motive. How well do you think it would have gone if they let you wake up under calmer circumstances as they explained you were in a Cerberus facility? It's part of many manipulations TIM does to keep you on his side.

Much like how he set you up on the Horizon mission to 'get rid of excess baggage' from your past. Just because he didn't put a control chip in you doesn't mean he's not manipulating you at every turn during ME2.

And Wilson doesn't need evidence to prove him innocent, unless you're not a big fan of the 'innocent until proven guilty' thing.

I agree that TiM is manipulating Shepard, but I don't believe they would have explained they were Cerberus as early (truthfully, they outright show they wanted to keep you from knowing, Jacob simply couldn't keep up the deception).  I suspect they would have been capable of arranging numerous other methods of hiding who they were from you until it was needed.  Methods that would be far less costly in resources and personnel. 

More importantly, Cerberus has a single major flaw in how it handles everything that lends creedance to Wilson possibly being a traitor.  TiM says it hinself, he got the best money could buy to bring you back.  The problem is, people motivated by money can always be given a better offer eventually.

Also, you have assumed Miranda's guilt based on as much or less conjecture than I am giving for Wilson's possible guilt, except stating it as certain.  If either of us has forgotten innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, it would be you.  Being considered innocent is not the same thing as being proven innocent.  I am not considering him guilty until proven innocent (as you are Miranda), but allowing for either possibility.  Stating that proof is required to prove his innnocence or guilt isn't presumptive, merely a statement of fact.  As it stands, we know neither for certain.  Therefore he has yet to be proven innocent or guilty.

[Cutlass Jack]

tmp7704 wrote...

But you still get to ask the questions afterwards, that saved them nothing. And no one is really defending Shepard on the way out, the staff gets slaughtered by security bots while trying to save their own lives. You meet one guy who is also trying to get out to save his own skin, and that's it. It definitely didn't feel like getting through that base improved Cerberus' image. If anything, it made them look worse --incompetent-- when a single (supposed) traitor they didn't suspect almost managed to ruin their project. Which would hardly make Shepard want to cooperate with them and as such doubt it's the impression they'd want to paint.

But afterwards you fought gun to gun with Jacob, See them as being human rather than a faceless enemy. Also anyone who could give you any information that differed from what TIM wanted you to know is conveniently dead. And it makes you think someone out there wants you dead (not untrue) and Cerberus sacrificed greatly to bring you back.

Nothing but win for TIM. The only thing in Project Lazarus that was important was you and getting you on his side.

[Sassymcgee]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Shadow015 wrote...

While the 'no evidence' part is true, what reason does Miranda have to try and kill Shepard?  Not to mention everyone else?

She wasn't trying to kill Shepard. If you couldn't fight your way past those mechs, there was no way you'd be able to handle what they really needed you for. It was a test designed to keep you moving and less likely to ask questions. Killing everyone else gets rid of anyone who could tell you what Cerberus really did to your body in the last 2 years. Particularly Wilson.

If Wilson wanted you dead he could have done it very easilly over the last two years. No one had more access to you over that time period and you were helpless for most of it.

There are repeated points of ME2 where they mention how Cerberus 'cleans up' old projects. Jack's loyalty quest for example.

My thoughts exactly. Very well put.

[JGray]

Brief thoughts.



1. He was only shot in the leg.

2. He says they got in! But where were they? Would the mechs just shoot and move on? If he took them down, where were the remains?

3. It isn't exactly an isolated incident. Someone wanted Shepard captured on Purgatory, too. Honestly, I wish there was a subplot where we had a bounty hunter after us to click this as "someone is trying to kill us/get us back". Likely the Shadow Broker working for the Collectors.

[Tokalla]

tmp7704 wrote...

But you still get to ask the questions afterwards, that saved them nothing. And no one is really defending Shepard on the way out, the staff gets slaughtered by security bots while trying to save their own lives. You meet one guy who is also trying to get out to save his own skin, and that's it. It definitely didn't feel like getting through that base improved Cerberus' image. If anything, it made them look worse --incompetent-- when a single (supposed) traitor they didn't suspect almost managed to ruin their project. Which would hardly make Shepard want to cooperate with them and as such doubt it's the impression they'd want to paint.

Make that a single high ranking traitor (showing that they aren't very good judges of character, regardless of what Miranda claims).  I'd also say there are some much less expensive methods to test the combat readiness of a soldier who you invested insane amounts of money on acquiring.  Actually, if Shepard had been mentally fine but needed some additional physical therapy due to unforseen issues, then accidentally killing him in an arbitrarily chosen lethal test seems to be a fairly large risk for something so costly.   I may not trust TiM or Miranda, but I suspect they have at least enough common sense to see playing Russian Roulette with such a substantial investment is moronic.

Edit: Well, there is one guy who says your name before being killed by a mech, but that was less defense and more a plea for help.  Still not seeing Cerberus in a better light from this test (which is what I was thinking when playing it the first time...these people are untrustworthy, reprehensible morons).

Modifié par Tokalla, 08 février 2010 - 03:10 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Tokalla wrote...

I agree that TiM is manipulating Shepard, but I don't believe they would have explained they were Cerberus as early (truthfully, they outright show they wanted to keep you from knowing, Jacob simply couldn't keep up the deception).  I suspect they would have been capable of arranging numerous other methods of hiding who they were from you until it was needed.  Methods that would be far less costly in resources and personnel. 

More importantly, Cerberus has a single major flaw in how it handles everything that lends creedance to Wilson possibly being a traitor.  TiM says it hinself, he got the best money could buy to bring you back.  The problem is, people motivated by money can always be given a better offer eventually.

Also, you have assumed Miranda's guilt based on as much or less conjecture than I am giving for Wilson's possible guilt, except stating it as certain.  If either of us has forgotten innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, it would be you.  Being considered innocent is not the same thing as being proven innocent.  I am not considering him guilty until proven innocent (as you are Miranda), but allowing for either possibility.  Stating that proof is required to prove his innnocence or guilt isn't presumptive, merely a statement of fact.  As it stands, we know neither for certain.  Therefore he has yet to be proven innocent or guilty.

Miranda is the 'Loyalist.' At the beginning of the game she'll do anything TIM asks of her and truly believes in his stated vision that its for the betterment of Humanity. Obviously she changes based on her interactions with Shepard later, but at the beginning thats the one absoolute about her.

It doesnt mean she felt good about doing things that way. Would be why she didn't let herself get emotionally attached to her team. I have no doubt she would have done things differently if she had a choice. Remember, by her own words, she was in favor of implanting a control mechanism.

But her damning action was shooting Wilson before asking questions in my mind. She didn't want to give him a chance to say anything more than he had already. If she really believed Wilson had done it, she would have least wanted to take him back to TIM to find out exactly where the leaks in Cerberus security were. There was no logic to her action, and Miranda is never shown to be impulsive.

[Cutlass Jack]

JGray wrote...

Brief thoughts.

1. He was only shot in the leg.
2. He says they got in! But where were they? Would the mechs just shoot and move on? If he took them down, where were the remains?

I wondered that too at first, but remember Wilson had the Overload power which one shotted any Mechs you hit with it and turned em into fragments. Anything you killed with that power didn't leave bodies.

[Gabey5]

he is pretty much trask ulgo...

[AsheraII]

I found aforementioned audiolog sound as if Wilson wasn't just complaining about his wages, but about the lack of credit he got overall, which is reflected in his wages as well. So I assume he wanted the rest of the team killed, and then turn the supposedly still unconcious Shepard over to the Collectors (or Shadow Broker), who probably offered him quite a bit more for the live DNA.

[Tokalla]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Miranda is the 'Loyalist.' At the beginning of the game she'll do anything TIM asks of her and truly believes in his stated vision that its for the betterment of Humanity. Obviously she changes based on her interactions with Shepard later, but at the beginning thats the one absoolute about her.

It doesnt mean she felt good about doing things that way. Would be why she didn't let herself get emotionally attached to her team. I have no doubt she would have done things differently if she had a choice. Remember, by her own words, she was in favor of implanting a control mechanism.

But her damning action was shooting Wilson before asking questions in my mind. She didn't want to give him a chance to say anything more than he had already. If she really believed Wilson had done it, she would have least wanted to take him back to TIM to find out exactly where the leaks in Cerberus security were. There was no logic to her action, and Miranda is never shown to be impulsive.

Actually, her logic (if you comment about questioning) is valid.  She considers Shepard too great an investment (she spent 2 years bringing you back, and Cerberus has spent untold resources including at least 4 billion credits) to risk placing into a small shuttle with Wilson (seriously, that things looked like a future stage coach for roominess).  She didn't care enough about the why's, who's, and how's enough to risk your life over.  Perhaps you feel differently, but if I had invested 2 years into bringing someone back from the dead (also note that Wilson was required for this to be done the first time, and I doubt he'd do it a second time), I could see her perspective on the issue.  Remember her speech in the beginning is not an attempt to trick anyone, as only she and TiM are present.  She truly does feel Shepard is the only salvation for humanity.

[Tokalla]

AsheraII wrote...

I found aforementioned audiolog sound as if Wilson wasn't just complaining about his wages, but about the lack of credit he got overall, which is reflected in his wages as well. So I assume he wanted the rest of the team killed, and then turn the supposedly still unconcious Shepard over to the Collectors (or Shadow Broker), who probably offered him quite a bit more for the live DNA.

I've actually wondered if he may have contacted the Alliance for his payoff (after all, that message from Anderson came really quickly).  If they ever reveal more info on it, I am hoping for the twist that he was killing Cerberus operatives to try and take you back to the Alliance (which would also explain more of the Alliance's distrust of Shepard, as they would view him as possibly having assisted in killing the man who was trying to bring you back to them).