76 réponses à ce sujet

[wrdnshprd]

there was an article recently posted on ign regarding the future of ME2  that i found a bit disappointing.  that article pretty much gives complete evidence towards the theory that bioware dumbed down the game to increase sales.  I am not going to post the full article, but here is the link:

http://xbox360.ign.c.../1066954p1.html

here is one quote that really frustrated me:

But there are core shooter fans as well as core RPG fans, and I think a
lot of them enjoy a progression mechanic and a system where you can
improve your character as well, so maybe this is broadening the types
of games they're interested in playing, and maybe in the future you'll
find this kind of progression more widespread.


I think bioware did a poor job with marketing ME2.  I think they needed to hammer home that they were going to 'streamline' the game to make it 'more accessible to a wider audience'.  Just tell us what kind of game it is.  Market this game as the evolution of the Gears of War genre.  Dont tell us that this game is a shooter with rpg elements, because in the traditional gaming sense, this game is NOT an RPG at all.  it is a shooter with dialogue.

That being said, i also want to mention that i LIKE BOTH GENRES.  I like shooters and i like RPGs.  I also dont have a problem with gaming companies merging the two genres together.  I love Borderlands for example.  That is a game where they successfully merged the two genres.  That game IMO is the best example of a shooter/RPG hybrid from the last few years.  if they made 50 games like that one id be happy.  What would make it better? adding the customization features of Deus Ex.  That to me is an evolution of the genre.

Also, i think its interesting that the bioware execs aren't even mentioning the fan reaction from their forums and different review sites.. because honestly its 50/50.  your're either loving it because they 'streamlined' the game for the shooter crowd, or frustrated because they took out a lot of what made ME1 an RPG hybrid and still a great game.

thoughts?

[Niorcs]

You have to realize, the majority of the people who bought the game aren't posting anywhere. I myself love shooters (Team Fortress, Killing Floor) and RPGs (KOTOR, Deus Ex, Indigo Prophesy), but I don't really care about this whole IT'S TOO SHOOTER or NOT ENOUGH RPG. Hell, my favorite is survival horror, and I know ME would never do that.



I don't think BioWare or EA really needed to do anything else than what they did- it's people who are stuck in a genre who are complaining about too much dialogue or too little.

[Stofsk]

wrdnshprd wrote...

thoughts?

I don't understand how ME2 isn't a shooter RPG hybrid. I also don't understand why it bothers so many people. I've defended ME2's improvements to the gameplay system before and it doesn't seem to matter, people seem to have their preconceptions and that's that.

[Bio Addict]

I have to say the fan reaction, even on these forums, is hardly "50/50." I've never seen the critical community so united in support behind a single game and most of the fanbase seems to agree with them.

[Bigeyez]

I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make with this thread. The majority of fan reactions to the game match up with the 40+ positive reviews it has. Does everybody like it? Of course not, but's there definitely isn't 1 million Mass Effect 2 owners out there right now who hate the game.



It's mainly a relatively minor (even on these forums it's a minority) that don't like the game for X number of reasons and thats prefectly fine, thats their opinion. It's nowhere near being 50% though.

[WizardD52986]

I love every change they made, even the ones that I was shocked they changed at first.

Mass Effect 2 was simply an amazing experience that every gamer hopes they get a chance to play. An Exptremely small portion of people who play this or any game every post on the corresponding forums for said game. Usually it's the fringe people looking for attention by trolling.

There are always going to be people who can't stand change or who will always find something they don't like. "You're going me a brand new car?! Why ...why is it Red? I hate red..."

Modifié par WizardD52986, 08 février 2010 - 06:32 .

[cocla]

I actually think Bioware did a great job combining two generally incompatible genres, I like both but mostly I am an RPG geek.



I love ME and ME2, but that said I think mechanics wise ME2 was much better than ME. Especially the inventory system! For ME3 I would say they just need more selection in each weapon type, more customizeable peices for the armor (for NPC's an actual change not just paint swap, ex: Garrus' damaged armor), and more dialogue between the team mates (them to you, and to eachother).



Tack those on (along with returning fave characters!) and I would be completly happy with ME3. Extra side missions added on would be nice too though

[wrdnshprd]

stofsk wrote...

wrdnshprd wrote...

thoughts?

I don't understand how ME2 isn't a shooter RPG hybrid. I also don't understand why it bothers so many people. I've defended ME2's improvements to the gameplay system before and it doesn't seem to matter, people seem to have their preconceptions and that's that.

ME2 isnt a shooter RPG hybrid because they pretty much eliminated the inventory system and most of the skill system.  both of those are what traditionally make up RPGs.  again, you want a definition of an RPG hybrid.. see borderlands or Deus EX.. you want a shooter with dialogue.. see ME2.

also, im not saying this is necessarily a bad thing.  they just marketed this as a hybrid, when its not and the core RPG fans (im one of them) are not happy about it.

the shooter crowd would be reacting the same way if they took out the action elements (i.e. the cover system and shooter mechanics) from ME2 and replaced it with inventory/level up min/maxing and number based combat.. (i.e. your ability to aim a gun and shoot a guy in the face has no bearing on whether the guy gets hit.. its based on your stats.)

[Clumsy Ninja]

More people are going to post negative comments than positive ones.  When you are happy with something, you just enjoy it.  When you don't like something, you want to go out and shout it from the mountain tops. 

Think about your job.  If you do a great job and really, really help someone, how likely are they to call up your boss and praise your perfromance?  Imagine if you did the opposite... really, really treated someone badly.  They're a lot more likely to complain, don't you think?  It's just human nature: people will walk over hot coals if they think they can get someone fired, but rarely go out of their way to praise a helpful individual.  (That's why I always try to praise helpful people by contacting their manager etc. . That way it helps to reverse the trend.)

I think the same is true with this game.  The vocal minority that doesn't like it uses various forums as vehicles for voicing their complaints... moreso that people use them to praise, it seems.  Human nature.

Modifié par Clumsy Ninja, 08 février 2010 - 06:43 .

[Ryngard]

Oh please. That is a bunch of senseless drivel, as are all the other posts like this.



I'm sorry but a frackin' INVENTORY system does not make a RPG. How stupid is that statement?!



You all are so "rabble rabble" about changes that you THINK happened, you don't even see that it is almost the same game.



I'm replaying ME1 right now and just finished ME2. Both feel almost identical to me. Sure I think ME2 has IMPROVED combat (especially with my sniper).



It isn't that ME2 isn't RPG enough, its that it is different and didn't go the way you whiners want it to have gone, so you cry and cry about it on the boards.



Either play it or don't. Like it or don't. But by the Maker do we need all of these nonsensical threads going ON and ON and ON about it?



Oh and board posters make up MAYBE 1% of the population of gamers. AND it is usually the vocal minority.

[Acero Azul]

^agreed im happy with the new sniper the bullShiz swaying of the old one was ridiculous especially if someone is trained in sniping i think this game is an improvement

[wrdnshprd]

i dunno, maybe im wrong in saying that its 50/50 but i would wager that there are lots out there that aren't happy.



and, again, im not completely disappointed with the game. they did some stuff really well. for example, the customization of the ship, the amount of references from ME1, the character quests, etc all were strong parts of the game. i just thought it could have been so much more if they kept the main RPG elements in place and just improved on them.



a lot of people will say, 'you mean you like the omni-gel inventory system'? no. but they didnt have to dwindle the inventory system to three weapons per type (again heavy weapons excluded) and completely eliminate the customization of your squad.

[cocla]

ME2 isnt a shooter RPG hybrid because they pretty much eliminated the inventory system and most of the skill system.  both of those are what traditionally make up RPGs.  again, you want a definition of an RPG hybrid.. see borderlands or Deus EX.. you want a shooter with dialogue.. see ME2.

I would actually say Borderlands is far from an RPG, sure it has a skill tree and loads of weapons, but it gave you no choice of what happened and no real interaction.  I liked Borderlands, but I would just say its a typical shooter with a unique weapon upgrade system.  Deus EX is a good example of a hybrid, i would also throw in Fallout 3 and Bioshock.

For me its the choices and dialogue that make an RPG, and ME and ME2 had that.  I dont miss the old inventory system, but I do whish you had more weapon choices in each category and more armor 'peices' you could find.

[Hannofant]

I am a core RPG fan, Baldur's Gate and Civ were my start. I played one shooter in my gaming career (Mafia) and I think it's great what they did with Mass Effect.

Borderlands is no RPG-Hybrid. It takes elements from dioblo and merged them with shooters. But Diablo is no Roleplaying-Game, it's an 3rd person action game with progression. Where do you play a ROLE in this games. You can play a Role in BG and you can play a role in ME2. I would argue that you can roleplay the most nuanced character in gaming history in ME2 But you can also shoot people in the face. Thats why it is a shooter RPG-Hybrid.

You are talking about mechanics not roleplaying.

[Brixxer600]

cocla wrote...

ME2 isnt a shooter RPG hybrid because they pretty much eliminated the inventory system and most of the skill system.  both of those are what traditionally make up RPGs.  again, you want a definition of an RPG hybrid.. see borderlands or Deus EX.. you want a shooter with dialogue.. see ME2.

For me its the choices and dialogue that make an RPG, and ME and ME2 had that.  I dont miss the old inventory system, but I do whish you had more weapon choices in each category and more armor 'peices' you could find.

I don't think that i could have said it any better ,IMO choices and dialogue are important elements of an RPG

[manicman1171]

Intresting

[Stofsk]

wrdnshprd wrote...

ME2 isnt a shooter RPG hybrid because they pretty much eliminated the inventory system and most of the skill system.  both of those are what traditionally make up RPGs.  again, you want a definition of an RPG hybrid.. see borderlands or Deus EX.. you want a shooter with dialogue.. see ME2.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I completely disagree with your assessment. As someone who plays tabletop RPGs as well as CRPGs, the presence or absence of an inventory is the furtherest thing on my mind. I much prefer ME2's treatment of inventory management where you select what guns you want to take with you on a mission infinitely more than ME1's system, where you carry an invisible bag of holding with you that you can fill with dozens upon dozens of worthless items (why worthless? Because once you get spectre weapons every gun in the game cannot match it stat for stat - which makes all those guns totally unnecessary and actually a drag to sift through)

I tend to like RPGs which treat inventories realistically. Say, Oblivion or Baldur's Gate where the amount of stuff you can carry is tied directly to how strong you are (leaving aside the other absurdities about either game aside, this mechanic - while occasionally frustrating - makes sense). In The Witcher, your inventory is limited to small items you can conceivably carry in a rucksack. You don't loot weapons and armour, because you don't need to.

As for the skill system, well, what can I say except I disagree? ME1 feels like there's more to the skill system than there really is, because it forces you to spend more points. But ME2, the stuff that matters - your ability to shoot targets using hand-eye reflexes, your ability to hack and bypass computer terminals - aren't tied into any particular stat. And I'm totally fine with that, because it works better as a gameplay mechanic. Tabletop RPGs are different, because everything is turn based so stats are a necessary abstraction, but even there the dirty little secret is that stats don't matter to anyone other than min-maxers. Anyone interested in role-playing is doing exactly that.

also, im not saying this is necessarily a bad thing.  they just marketed this as a hybrid, when its not and the core RPG fans (im one of them) are not happy about it.

You say it's not a bad thing, yet you say you're not happy about it. Why? I already disagree with your assessment above, but hey it's your opinion. I just don't understand why people have a hard time dealing with this.

the shooter crowd would be reacting the same way if they took out the action elements (i.e. the cover system and shooter mechanics) from ME2 and replaced it with inventory/level up min/maxing and number based combat.. (i.e. your ability to aim a gun and shoot a guy in the face has no bearing on whether the guy gets hit.. its based on your stats.)

But this was one of the major complaints against ME1, and it's totally valid. It doesn't need to be shooter fans though. I make no exaggeration when I say this, but I never played shooters before I played ME1. I was never interested in them, they all had the same boring story told with the same boring cardboard cut out protagonists. ME1 appealed to me however, but it wasn't because it was an RPG or a shooter (basically a friend of mine told me about the game and described it like it was StarControl 2 but with a character and guns)

[Hizoka003]

the mindless XBox shooter crowd are extremely happy with the game. The BioWare RPG fans are not. The sad thing is the retarded shooter demographic is much larger then the intelligent RPG fan demographic.

[Lortext]

You guys talk about some kind of united fan outcry but you do realize it's just a bunch of really vocally upset people complaining on the forums. If i just went by the fan reaction of people I work with then ME2 is awesome, has a few flaws, and is GOTY 2010.

[wrdnshprd]

i also agree that dialogue and choices are important ELEMENTS to RPGs. They are what set apart a good RPG from a great RPG, they are not what DEFINES an RPG, at least in the video game world.

Why do i say this? i say this because if they added dialogue, choices, and an actual good story to COD4, would that game be considered an RPG? no. it would be considered one of the best shooters ever because on top of an already great game, it actually had a story and your choices actually matter.

Modifié par wrdnshprd, 08 février 2010 - 07:17 .

[Brixxer600]

Hizoka003 wrote...

the mindless XBox shooter crowd are extremely happy with the game. The BioWare RPG fans are not. The sad thing is the retarded shooter demographic is much larger then the intelligent RPG fan demographic.

I have considered myself a Bioware RPG fan  since KOTOR and i'm delighted with the game on 360 thanks. 

[Hannofant]

wrdnshprd wrote...

i also agree that dialogue and choices are important ELEMENT to RPGs. They are what set apart a good RPG from a great RPG, they are not what DEFINES an RPG, at least in the video game world.

Why do i say this? i say this because if they added dialogue, choices, and an actual good story to COD4, would that game be considered an RPG?

Yes it would be. Because if you play a ROLE, have a great stroy, dialog and a lot of choices that change the story or the character of your character it is a roleplaying game.